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RE: [steiner] Miscegenation?

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  • Durward Starman
    ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it s important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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      ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.
       
         Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that races as we have known them will become of less and less importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.
       
         So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the need for endogamy is long over.
       
        For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
       
         As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're Caucasian, etc.
       
      -Starman




      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      From: christopherraymond_bio@...
      Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000
      Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?

      The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:

      There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
      miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
      advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
      today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
      engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
      a revived form of clairvoyance.

      However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
      clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
      Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
      around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
      wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
      part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
      after their decent out from Atlantis.

      He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
      ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
      example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
      were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
      the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
      prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
      the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
      yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
      the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
      `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
      races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
      pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
      (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
      unclear.)

      Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
      should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
      sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
      if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
      whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
      correctly.

      What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
      internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
      translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
      books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
      gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
      think, without all the going back and forth between views,
      translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.

      Thanks in advance,
      Chris.




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    • Durward Starman
      ... *******I ve never heard of that quote, and I can t find it at that link. Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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        >Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
        actual readings:
        http://sociologyeso science.com/ esoterica/ cbooks1.html
        "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
        years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
        people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
        without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
        reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)
         
        *******This was a reading given early in Cayce's career when his father, a violent racist, conducted the readings. Cayce's stenographer, Gladys Davis Turner, said she felt that it was his influence on the unconscious Cayce that resulted in this insult --- which was, by the way, contradicted by many, many statements throughout the rest of Cayce's career after his father was removed from his position as conductor for secretly getting information on horse races for friends. This is why it's not just that anthroposophy is 'better' in some vague way that trance psychics, but specifically they are open to all sorts of suggestion and influence. The readings praising Hitler were done in a house full of Germans, for instance.
         


        >Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
        http://www.ciis. edu/cayce/ Smith.html

        "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)
         
        *******I've never heard of that quote, and I can't find it at that link.
         
         


        Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
        http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ Dates/19101228p0 1.html and before we
        discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
        directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
        Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)
        "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
        and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
        the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
        being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
        discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
        astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
        to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
        Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
        the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
        philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
        older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
        opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
        in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
        that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
        here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
        coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
        negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
        characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
        expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
        calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
        a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
        preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
        the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
        Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
        value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
        nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
        essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
        soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
        whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
        only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
        culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
        opening up a wide vista into the future."
         
         
        *******If you study about 'young' and 'old' souls, you'll find that Dr. Steiner was not implying the one is good and the other bad. He says the young souls bring a new, fresh impulse into the world. In his Mystery Plays, he portrays them as Dr. Strader and Professor Capesius, and each has his area of weakness.
           Look at how the Negro brought a new vitality into European music, for instance. It certainly can't be said to be all good (God, I'm sick of hearing rap 'music'!), but no one would say it was all bad, either.
         


        >We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
        transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
        the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
        skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
        a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
        the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
        lacking in genes.
        Dr. Steiner mentioned:
        "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
        must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
        were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
        perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
        form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."
        In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
        processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
        Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
        skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
        recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
        This is already known to biology today.
        Blessings,
        Chris
         
        *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends race, not race anymore.
         
        -Starman


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      • christopherraymond_bio
        Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro novels giving birth
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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          Duward,
          You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
          Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
          novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
          feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
          it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
          to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
          norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
          intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
          through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
          miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
          preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
          skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
          danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
          blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
          intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
          miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
          becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
          turning toward spiritual science?

          The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
          bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
          areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
          could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
          living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
          experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
          materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
          uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
          bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
          Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
          so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
          rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
          occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
          here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
          should experience what is required.

          If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
          cultural development as much either, what do you think?





          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
          many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
          the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
          in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
          Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
          century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
          people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
          basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
          worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
          also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
          subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
          animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
          a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
          act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
          of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
          the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
          with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
          that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
          grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
          Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
          group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
          influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
          many types of blood, for instance.
          >
          > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
          studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
          longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
          blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
          It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
          that races as we have known them will become of less and less
          importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
          distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
          and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
          less.
          >
          > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
          was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
          actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
          clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
          need for endogamy is long over.
          >
          > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
          is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
          learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
          inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
          completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
          anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
          enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
          is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
          >
          > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
          and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
          no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
          them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
          Caucasian, etc.
          >
          > -Starman
          >
          >
          > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
          20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
          >
          >
          > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
          races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
          howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
          toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
          thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
          beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
          developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
          teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
          are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
          with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
          trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
          Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
          people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
          decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
          of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
          the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
          America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
          signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
          limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
          Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
          and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
          taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
          be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
          theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
          topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
          (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
          amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
          taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
          quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
          appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
          answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
          if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
          books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
          in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
          from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
          such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
          clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
          views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
          Thanks in advance,Chris.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
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        • christopherraymond_bio
          *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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            "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
            replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
            science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
            think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
            race, not race anymore. "

            I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
            be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
            we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
            allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
            path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
            fulfill that requirement in that body?
          • Durward Starman
            *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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              *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
               
                 Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
               
               "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
              clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
              resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
              through spiritual science."
               
                  The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
               
                 I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
               
                 Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
               
                 I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
               
                 Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
               
                 But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
               
                 These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
               
                 Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
               
                 I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
               
                 But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
               
                 Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
               
                 But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

              Starman
              www.DrStarman.com



              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
              From: christopherraymond_bio@...
              Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
              Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

              Duward,
              You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
              Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
              novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
              feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
              it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
              to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
              norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
              intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
              clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
              resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
              through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
              miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
              preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
              skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
              danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
              blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
              intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
              miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
              becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
              turning toward spiritual science?

              The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
              bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
              areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
              could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
              living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
              experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
              materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
              uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
              bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
              Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
              so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
              rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
              occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
              here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
              should experience what is required.

              If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
              cultural development as much either, what do you think?

              --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
              many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
              the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
              in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
              Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
              century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
              people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
              basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
              worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
              also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
              subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
              animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
              a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
              act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
              of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
              the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
              with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
              that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
              grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
              Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
              group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
              influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
              many types of blood, for instance.
              >
              > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
              studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
              longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
              blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
              It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
              that races as we have known them will become of less and less
              importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
              distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
              and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
              less.
              >
              > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
              was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
              actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
              clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
              need for endogamy is long over.
              >
              > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
              is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
              learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
              inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
              completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
              anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
              enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
              is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
              >
              > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
              and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
              no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
              them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
              Caucasian, etc.
              >
              > -Starman
              >
              >
              > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
              20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
              >
              >
              > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
              races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
              howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
              toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
              thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
              beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
              developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
              teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
              are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
              with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
              trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
              Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
              people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
              decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
              of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
              the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
              America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
              signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
              limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
              Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
              and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
              taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
              be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
              theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
              topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
              (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
              amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
              taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
              quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
              appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
              answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
              if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
              books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
              in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
              from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
              such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
              clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
              views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
              Thanks in advance,Chris.
              >
              >
              >

              .



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            • christopherraymond_bio
              Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

                "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

                Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                School in Stuttgart":

                "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                human race...They are very different from human beings where
                spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                human form.

                "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                36-37)

                After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                teaching that I find discouraging.

                Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                bigot.

                To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

                > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

                Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

                This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

                "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                science."

                However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                honest question.

                Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                of WWI":

                "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                by the four other cultural epochs".

                "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

                Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                opinion.

                "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                to culturally, indeed. "

                First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                from "Health and Illness in 1922:

                "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                blood children will be born in Europe"

                Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                racist.

                "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                to me. Definitions, please."

                "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                development."

                Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

                "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

                Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

                "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                Mill put it (7).

                "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                allowed to be so confused. "

                Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                another.












                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                >
                > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                >
                > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                through spiritual science."
                >
                > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                >
                > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                >
                > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                to culturally, indeed.
                >
                > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                to me. Definitions, please.
                >
                > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                development.
                >
                > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                Malcolm X.
                >
                > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                >
                > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                culture just as much as old ones.
                >
                > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                >
                > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                allowed to be so confused.
                >
                > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                >
                > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                civilization.
                > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                >
                >
                > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                >
                >
                > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                > .
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
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              • Durward Starman
                ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                  >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                  did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
                   
                  *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
                   
                   
                   
                  >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                   
                  *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



                  >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                  cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                   
                   
                  ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



                   Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                  "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                  give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                  to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                  blood children will be born in Europe"
                  Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                  investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                  washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                  racist.

                  ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                      I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


                  >  Each spirit is an
                  individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                  astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                  incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                  formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                  that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                  approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                  soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                  Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                  very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
                  black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                  viz., Malcolm X.
                  > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                  being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                  third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                  whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                  > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                  nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                  spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
                   
                  Starman
                  www.DrStarma n.com

                  .



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                • christopherraymond_bio
                  Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                    Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
                    hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
                    However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
                    quoted:

                    "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
                    become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
                    it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

                    Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
                    here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
                    races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
                    to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
                    he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
                    races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
                    if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

                    When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
                    having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
                    were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
                    early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
                    other statements about the Mongols.

                    I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
                    something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
                    races', I think.
                    Chris.



                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
                    question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
                    >
                    > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
                    post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
                    even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
                    another.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                    >
                    > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
                    > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                    cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                    >
                    >
                    > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
                    without having to have black fathers.
                    > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
                    convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
                    them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
                    Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
                    children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
                    say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
                    and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
                    angle in claiming he was a racist.
                    > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
                    shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
                    spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
                    stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
                    with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
                    kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
                    essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
                    can.
                    > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
                    is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
                    comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
                    bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
                    But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
                    That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
                    soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
                    an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
                    culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
                    skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
                    a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
                    school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
                    spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
                    moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                    > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
                    avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
                    things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
                    > www.DrStarman.com
                    > .
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
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                  • happypick2000
                    Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                      Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                      Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                      simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                      important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                      inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                      discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                      existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                      Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                      be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                      else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                      consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                      accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                      definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                      cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                      This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                      our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                      so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                      cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                      such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                      beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                      impasse.

                      Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                      the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                      haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                      the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                      mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                      Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                      spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                      Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                      plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                      to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                      perhaps as an etheric human?

                      We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                      we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                      to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                      actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                      important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                      Blessings,
                      Sheila

                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                      <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                      > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                      > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                      > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                      > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                      > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                      > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                      > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                      > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                      > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                      > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                      >
                      > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                      > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                      > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                      > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                      > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                      > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                      > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                      > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                      > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                      >
                      > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                      > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                      > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                      > School in Stuttgart":
                      >
                      > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                      > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                      > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                      > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                      > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                      > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                      > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                      > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                      > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                      > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                      > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                      > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                      > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                      > human form.
                      >
                      > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                      > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                      > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                      > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                      > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                      > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                      > 36-37)
                      >
                      > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                      > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                      > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                      > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                      > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                      > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                      > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                      > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                      > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                      > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                      > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                      > teaching that I find discouraging.
                      >
                      > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                      > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                      > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                      > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                      > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                      > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                      > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                      > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                      > bigot.
                      >
                      > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                      > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                      > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                      > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                      > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                      > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                      > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                      > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                      > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                      > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                      > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                      > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                      >
                      > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                      > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                      > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                      > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                      > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                      > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                      >
                      > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                      > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                      >
                      > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                      >
                      > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                      > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                      > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                      > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                      > science."
                      >
                      > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                      > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                      > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                      > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                      > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                      > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                      > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                      > honest question.
                      >
                      > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                      > of WWI":
                      >
                      > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                      > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                      > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                      > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                      > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                      > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                      > by the four other cultural epochs".
                      >
                      > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                      > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                      > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                      > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                      > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                      > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                      > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                      > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                      > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                      > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                      >
                      > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                      > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                      > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                      > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                      > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                      > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                      > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                      > opinion.
                      >
                      > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                      > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                      > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                      > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                      > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                      > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                      > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                      > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                      > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                      > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                      > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                      > to culturally, indeed. "
                      >
                      > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                      > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                      > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                      > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                      >
                      > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                      > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                      > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                      > blood children will be born in Europe"
                      >
                      > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                      > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                      > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                      > racist.
                      >
                      > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                      > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                      > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                      > to me. Definitions, please."
                      >
                      > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                      > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                      > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                      > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                      > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                      > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                      > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                      > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                      > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                      > development."
                      >
                      > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                      >
                      > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                      > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                      > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                      > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                      > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                      > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                      > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                      > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                      > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                      > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                      > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                      > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                      >
                      > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                      > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                      > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                      >
                      > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                      > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                      > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                      > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                      > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                      > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                      > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                      > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                      > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                      > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                      > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                      > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                      > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                      > Mill put it (7).
                      >
                      > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                      > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                      > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                      > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                      > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                      > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                      > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                      > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                      > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                      > allowed to be so confused. "
                      >
                      > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                      > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                      > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                      > another.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                      > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                      > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                      > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                      > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                      > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                      > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                      > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                      > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                      > >
                      > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                      > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                      > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                      > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                      > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                      > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                      > through spiritual science."
                      > >
                      > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                      > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                      > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                      > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                      > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                      > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                      > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                      > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                      > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                      > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                      > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                      > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                      > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                      > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                      > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                      > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                      > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                      > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                      > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                      > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                      > >
                      > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                      > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                      > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                      > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                      > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                      > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                      > >
                      > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                      > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                      > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                      > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                      > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                      > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                      > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                      > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                      > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                      > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                      > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                      > to culturally, indeed.
                      > >
                      > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                      > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                      > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                      > to me. Definitions, please.
                      > >
                      > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                      > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                      > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                      > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                      > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                      > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                      > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                      > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                      > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                      > development.
                      > >
                      > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                      > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                      > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                      > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                      > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                      > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                      > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                      > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                      > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                      > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                      > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                      > Malcolm X.
                      > >
                      > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                      > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                      > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                      > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                      > >
                      > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                      > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                      > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                      > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                      > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                      > culture just as much as old ones.
                      > >
                      > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                      > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                      > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                      > >
                      > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                      > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                      > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                      > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                      > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                      > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                      > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                      > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                      > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                      > allowed to be so confused.
                      > >
                      > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                      > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                      > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                      > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                      > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                      > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                      > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                      > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                      > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                      > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                      > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                      > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                      > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                      > >
                      > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                      > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                      > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                      > civilization.
                      > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                      > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                      > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                      > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                      > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                      > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                      > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                      > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                      > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                      > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                      > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                      > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                      > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                      > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                      > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                      > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                      > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                      > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                      > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                      > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                      > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                      > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                      > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                      > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                      > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                      > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                      > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                      > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                      > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                      > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                      > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                      > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                      > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                      > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                      > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                      > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                      > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                      > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                      > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                      > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                      > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                      > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                      > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                      > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                      > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                      > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                      > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                      > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                      > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                      > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                      > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                      > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                      > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                      > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                      > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                      > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                      > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                      > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                      > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                      > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                      > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                      > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                      > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                      > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                      > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                      > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                      > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                      > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                      > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                      > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                      > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                      > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                      > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                      > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                      > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                      > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                      > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                      > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                      > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                      > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                      > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                      > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                      > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                      > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                      > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                      > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                      > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                      > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                      > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                      > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                      > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                      > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                      > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                      > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                      > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                      > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                      > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                      > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                      > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                      > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                      > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                      > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                      > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                      > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                      > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                      > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                      > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                      > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                      > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                      > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                      > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                      > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                      > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                      > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                      > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                      > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                      > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                      > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                      > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                      > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                      > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                      > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                      > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                      > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                      > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                      > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                      > > .
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                      > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
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                      > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                      > >
                      >
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