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Re: Miscegenation?

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  • happypick2000
    Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner s words dealing with the Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be thoroughly researched.
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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      Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner's words dealing with the
      Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be
      thoroughly researched.
      Blessings,
      Sheila

      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
      >
      > Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html
      >
      > "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
      > colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
      > evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
      > civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
      > people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
      > environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
      > new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
      > certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came
      > to their particular parts of the world."
      >
      > Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
      > regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:
      >
      > "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
      > these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that
      > the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."
      >
      >
      > Dr. Steiner continues....:
      >
      > "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
      > considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
      > upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
      > useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.
      >
      > Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
      > mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
      > fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
      > ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the lower
      > apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is too
      > far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
      > with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
      > mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
      > actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
      > clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
      > with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
      > entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
      > blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
      > influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace it
      > back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
      > conducted from this standpoint.
      >
      > We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
      > connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
      > case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
      > physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in contact
      > with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
      > blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
      > power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
      > exogamy.
      >
      > Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too far
      > removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
      > original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
      > destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
      > Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
      > similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
      > the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
      > strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
      > blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
      > consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
      > the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
      > been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
      > intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
      > That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in his
      > ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
      > principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital fluids
      > and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
      > the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
      > etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
      > system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
      > the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore, would
      > master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be borne
      > in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For example,
      > the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
      > you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood the
      > ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
      > possess his blood."
      >
      >
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
      > The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
      > the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:
      >
      > "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
      > itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
      > also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
      > heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
      > expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
      > These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
      > innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
      > was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
      > developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed their
      > ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the outer
      > world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
      > scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the Atlantean
      > initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other men
      > who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
      > of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
      > could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed ego-
      > feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
      > became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
      > were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
      > ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from the
      > outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
      > surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
      > human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use for
      > the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
      > great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
      > of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
      > strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
      > manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the West
      > and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the Red
      > Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
      > developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
      > became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
      > those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
      > evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
      > brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and on
      > the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
      > the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of egohood
      > is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling of
      > ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
      > as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these two
      > phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the West
      > and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
      > whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
      > people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
      > who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like plants:
      > they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin and
      > became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
      > Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
      > population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
      > developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who had
      > developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
      > were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from the
      > place we know of in Asia."
      >
      > The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
      > developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
      > advanced stages of Ego development."
      >
      > "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
      > the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
      > stages of development. These were also turned to account, of course.
      > To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
      > suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
      > example, in the migration from West to East a people remained behind
      > in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
      > degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
      > from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
      > result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
      > the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
      > especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
      > feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least in
      > this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples who
      > had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
      > milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
      > rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
      > nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
      > outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able to
      > say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
      > personality was from the beginning their essential feature."
      >
      > Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on something
      > more than environment:
      >
      > "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
      > situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
      > which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave rise
      > to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
      > direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
      > possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is very
      > important that we realise the connection between the sun's influence
      > on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
      > matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see how
      > much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these possible
      > shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that particular
      > part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
      > were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
      > till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
      > people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised by
      > peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
      > acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours to
      > be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
      > have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
      > the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
      > world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls in
      > every possible part of Asia."
      >
      > Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
      > ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.
      >
      > "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and African
      > peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
      > combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
      > manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups of
      > people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming the
      > root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
      > the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
      > feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the ego-
      > feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
      > North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times, you
      > find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
      > were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
      > character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on the
      > bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia with
      > passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity expresses
      > itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
      > etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
      > the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
      > people"
      >
      > "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
      > Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
      > countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let us
      > remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
      > found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies but
      > whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
      > fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
      > physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward. And
      > we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just think
      > how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
      > times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
      > who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
      > one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
      > other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves with
      > the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
      > to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with the
      > one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
      > say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
      > individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
      > two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
      > arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and West.
      > And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea of
      > God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
      > itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
      > Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
      > personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
      > we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of a
      > God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
      > developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this particular
      > belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still inward,
      > still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
      > still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a small
      > degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
      > personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
      > also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner being.
      > Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the greatest
      > wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
      > Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And because
      > these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
      > entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
      > remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
      > remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
      > clairvoyance."
      >
      >
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
      >
      > "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
      > civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
      > era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it were,
      > but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
      > understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in a
      > certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a higher
      > ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
      > learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's inhabitant's
      > did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
      > development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard to
      > the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
      > Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
      > earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What would
      > they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
      > development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
      > develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
      > men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
      > strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that is
      > how they became red. Their development led them into decadence. Among
      > the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
      > the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call inner
      > brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
      > could find within themselves everything that had to be developed. At
      > the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
      > significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
      > altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They did
      > not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner. But
      > those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
      > they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
      > the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
      > holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
      > future."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
      > >
      > > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
      > > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
      > have
      > > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
      > > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
      > > views.
      > >
      > > Blessings,
      > > Chris.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
      > > > >
      > > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
      > > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
      > > order to
      > > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
      > > this
      > > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
      > > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
      > > developing
      > > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
      > > > >
      > > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
      > > becomes
      > > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
      > > advanced
      > > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
      > > running
      > > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
      > > Steiner
      > > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
      > due
      > > in
      > > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
      > too
      > > slow
      > > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
      > > > >
      > > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
      > > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
      > > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
      > America
      > > who
      > > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
      > > signifying
      > > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
      > which
      > > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
      > > that
      > > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
      > > not
      > > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught
      > how
      > > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
      > > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
      > > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
      > > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
      > > pregnancy.
      > > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
      > > > > unclear.)
      > > > >
      > > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
      > taught
      > > we
      > > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
      > > quotes, or
      > > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
      > any
      > > help
      > > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
      > > question of
      > > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
      > > > > correctly.
      > > > >
      > > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
      > > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
      > > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
      > from
      > > the
      > > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
      > such
      > > a
      > > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
      > > clear I
      > > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
      > > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks in advance,
      > > > > Chris.
      > > > >
      > > > Dear Chris and Friends,
      > > >
      > > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
      > > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
      > > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
      > understandable
      > > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
      > > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
      > Folk
      > > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
      > > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
      > > Souls,
      > > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
      > would
      > > be,
      > > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
      > > of "Kar.
      > > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
      > > Movement".
      > > >
      > > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
      > > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
      > > but
      > > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
      > > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
      > understanding
      > > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
      > > personal
      > > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
      > > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
      > > >
      > > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
      > > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
      > > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
      > > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
      > > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
      > > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
      > > abeyance
      > > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
      > > insights
      > > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able
      > to
      > > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
      > > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work.
      > I
      > > > include it below as it is in my copy.
      > > >
      > >
      > ======================================================================
      > > > PREFACE
      > > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
      > > 1910.]
      > > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
      > > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
      > > development
      > > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
      > > Anthroposophy
      > > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
      > > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
      > able
      > > to
      > > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with
      > the
      > > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is
      > the
      > > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
      > > however a
      > > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
      > > anthroposophy,
      > > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
      > > for a
      > > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
      > > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
      > anatomy
      > > and
      > > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
      > man.
      > > If
      > > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
      > study
      > > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
      > insight
      > > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
      > > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
      > > element,
      > > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
      > souls
      > > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
      > higher
      > > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
      > > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
      > > Folk
      > > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
      > reality
      > > of
      > > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it
      > is
      > > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
      > to
      > > the
      > > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to
      > be
      > > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
      > which
      > > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
      > > needle
      > > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect
      > of
      > > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes
      > of
      > > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons
      > for
      > > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
      > > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
      > > anthroposophical
      > > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
      > > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
      > > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
      > seeds
      > > the
      > > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
      > > then
      > > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
      > > peoples
      > > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
      > The
      > > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
      > > mutual
      > > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
      > this
      > > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
      > > one
      > > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
      > > reality
      > > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
      > > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
      > early
      > > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
      > beings.
      > > An
      > > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use
      > of
      > > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
      > there
      > > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
      > > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
      > > Western
      > > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or
      > if
      > > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
      > only
      > > be
      > > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
      > > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems
      > to
      > > me
      > > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
      > > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
      > > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
      > > physical
      > > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
      > electricity,
      > > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
      > > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
      > > painful
      > > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
      > > said
      > > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
      > > 1918}
      > > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in
      > the
      > > > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
      > > were
      > > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
      > > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
      > > especially
      > > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission
      > of
      > > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
      > > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
      > > today
      > > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
      > > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
      > > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
      > > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members
      > of
      > > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
      > free
      > > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
      > understanding
      > > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
      > call 'the
      > > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
      > > the
      > > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
      > > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
      > > shows
      > > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
      > supersensible
      > > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
      > > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
      > life.
      > > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
      > > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
      > > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
      > > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
      > exploiting
      > > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
      > > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
      > mankind
      > > we
      > > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
      > > the
      > > > first demand of our age.
      > > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
      > > >
      > >
      > ======================================================================
      > >
      > > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
      > > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
      > found
      > > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
      > > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
      > > incredibly
      > > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
      > Friends.
      > > >
      > > > Blessings,
      > > > Sheila
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Durward Starman
      ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it s important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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        ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.
         
           Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that races as we have known them will become of less and less importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.
         
           So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the need for endogamy is long over.
         
          For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
         
           As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're Caucasian, etc.
         
        -Starman




        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        From: christopherraymond_bio@...
        Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000
        Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?

        The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:

        There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
        miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
        advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
        today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
        engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
        a revived form of clairvoyance.

        However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
        clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
        Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
        around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
        wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
        part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
        after their decent out from Atlantis.

        He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
        ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
        example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
        were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
        the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
        prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
        the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
        yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
        the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
        `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
        races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
        pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
        (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
        unclear.)

        Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
        should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
        sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
        if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
        whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
        correctly.

        What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
        internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
        translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
        books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
        gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
        think, without all the going back and forth between views,
        translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.

        Thanks in advance,
        Chris.




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      • Durward Starman
        ... *******I ve never heard of that quote, and I can t find it at that link. Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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          >Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
          actual readings:
          http://sociologyeso science.com/ esoterica/ cbooks1.html
          "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
          years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
          people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
          without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
          reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)
           
          *******This was a reading given early in Cayce's career when his father, a violent racist, conducted the readings. Cayce's stenographer, Gladys Davis Turner, said she felt that it was his influence on the unconscious Cayce that resulted in this insult --- which was, by the way, contradicted by many, many statements throughout the rest of Cayce's career after his father was removed from his position as conductor for secretly getting information on horse races for friends. This is why it's not just that anthroposophy is 'better' in some vague way that trance psychics, but specifically they are open to all sorts of suggestion and influence. The readings praising Hitler were done in a house full of Germans, for instance.
           


          >Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
          http://www.ciis. edu/cayce/ Smith.html

          "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)
           
          *******I've never heard of that quote, and I can't find it at that link.
           
           


          Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
          http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ Dates/19101228p0 1.html and before we
          discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
          directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
          Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)
          "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
          and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
          the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
          being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
          discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
          astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
          to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
          Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
          the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
          philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
          older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
          opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
          in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
          that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
          here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
          coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
          negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
          characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
          expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
          calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
          a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
          preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
          the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
          Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
          value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
          nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
          essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
          soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
          whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
          only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
          culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
          opening up a wide vista into the future."
           
           
          *******If you study about 'young' and 'old' souls, you'll find that Dr. Steiner was not implying the one is good and the other bad. He says the young souls bring a new, fresh impulse into the world. In his Mystery Plays, he portrays them as Dr. Strader and Professor Capesius, and each has his area of weakness.
             Look at how the Negro brought a new vitality into European music, for instance. It certainly can't be said to be all good (God, I'm sick of hearing rap 'music'!), but no one would say it was all bad, either.
           


          >We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
          transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
          the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
          skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
          a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
          the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
          lacking in genes.
          Dr. Steiner mentioned:
          "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
          must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
          were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
          perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
          form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."
          In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
          processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
          Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
          skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
          recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
          This is already known to biology today.
          Blessings,
          Chris
           
          *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends race, not race anymore.
           
          -Starman


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        • christopherraymond_bio
          Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro novels giving birth
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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            Duward,
            You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
            Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
            novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
            feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
            it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
            to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
            norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
            intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
            clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
            resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
            through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
            miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
            preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
            skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
            danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
            blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
            intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
            miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
            becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
            turning toward spiritual science?

            The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
            bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
            areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
            could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
            living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
            experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
            materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
            uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
            bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
            Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
            so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
            rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
            occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
            here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
            should experience what is required.

            If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
            cultural development as much either, what do you think?





            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
            many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
            the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
            in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
            Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
            century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
            people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
            basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
            worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
            also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
            subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
            animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
            a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
            act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
            of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
            the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
            with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
            that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
            grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
            Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
            group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
            influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
            many types of blood, for instance.
            >
            > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
            studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
            longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
            blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
            It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
            that races as we have known them will become of less and less
            importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
            distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
            and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
            less.
            >
            > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
            was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
            actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
            clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
            need for endogamy is long over.
            >
            > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
            is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
            learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
            inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
            completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
            anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
            enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
            is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
            >
            > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
            and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
            no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
            them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
            Caucasian, etc.
            >
            > -Starman
            >
            >
            > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
            20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
            >
            >
            > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
            races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
            howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
            toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
            thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
            beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
            developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
            teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
            are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
            with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
            trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
            Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
            people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
            decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
            of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
            the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
            America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
            signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
            limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
            Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
            and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
            taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
            be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
            theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
            topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
            (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
            amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
            taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
            quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
            appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
            answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
            if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
            books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
            in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
            from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
            such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
            clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
            views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
            Thanks in advance,Chris.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
            scramble challenge with star power.
            > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
            icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
            >
          • christopherraymond_bio
            *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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              "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
              replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
              science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
              think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
              race, not race anymore. "

              I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
              be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
              we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
              allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
              path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
              fulfill that requirement in that body?
            • Durward Starman
              *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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                *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                 
                   Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                 
                 "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                through spiritual science."
                 
                    The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                 
                   I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                 
                   Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
                 
                   I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
                 
                   Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
                 
                   But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
                 
                   These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                 
                   Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
                 
                   I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                 
                   But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
                 
                   Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                 
                   But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

                Starman
                www.DrStarman.com



                To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                From: christopherraymond_bio@...
                Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
                Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

                Duward,
                You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
                Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
                novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
                feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
                miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
                preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
                skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
                danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
                blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
                intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
                miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
                becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
                turning toward spiritual science?

                The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
                bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
                areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
                could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
                living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
                experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
                Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
                so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                should experience what is required.

                If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
                cultural development as much either, what do you think?

                --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
                >
                >
                > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
                many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
                the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
                in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
                Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
                century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
                people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
                basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
                worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
                also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
                subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
                animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
                a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
                act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
                of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
                the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
                with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
                that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
                grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
                Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
                group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
                influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
                many types of blood, for instance.
                >
                > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
                studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
                longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
                blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
                It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
                that races as we have known them will become of less and less
                importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
                distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
                and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
                less.
                >
                > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
                was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                need for endogamy is long over.
                >
                > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
                is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
                learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
                inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
                completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
                anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
                enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
                is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                >
                > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
                and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
                no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
                them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
                Caucasian, etc.
                >
                > -Starman
                >
                >
                > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
                20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
                >
                >
                > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
                races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
                howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
                toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
                thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
                beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
                developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
                teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
                are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
                with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
                trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
                Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
                people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
                decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
                of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
                the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
                America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
                signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
                books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                Thanks in advance,Chris.
                >
                >
                >

                .



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              • christopherraymond_bio
                Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                  Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                  did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                  mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                  Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                  discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                  have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                  him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                  any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                  through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                  it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                  sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

                  "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                  you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                  you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                  people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                  miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                  of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                  marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                  like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                  to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

                  Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                  several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                  statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                  School in Stuttgart":

                  "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                  more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                  exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                  not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                  human race...They are very different from human beings where
                  spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                  sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                  there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                  would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                  are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                  there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                  enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                  particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                  human form.

                  "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                  already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                  frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                  professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                  death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                  "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                  36-37)

                  After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                  further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                  agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                  past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                  have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                  I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                  just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                  absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                  me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                  poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                  matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                  teaching that I find discouraging.

                  Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                  cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                  has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                  happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                  daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                  hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                  miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                  voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                  bigot.

                  To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                  What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                  reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                  racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                  should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                  but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                  profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                  companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                  certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                  is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                  this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                  regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

                  > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                  disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                  future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                  associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                  exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                  actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

                  Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                  experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

                  This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

                  "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                  [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                  dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                  they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                  science."

                  However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                  blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                  no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                  of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                  to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                  it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                  and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                  honest question.

                  Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                  of WWI":

                  "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                  spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                  white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                  within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                  the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                  that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                  by the four other cultural epochs".

                  "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                  impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                  the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                  clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                  spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                  in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                  the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                  demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                  skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                  do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

                  Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                  acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                  introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                  again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                  into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                  seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                  most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                  opinion.

                  "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                  expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                  little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                  to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                  race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                  is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                  culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                  sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                  I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                  earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                  cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                  to culturally, indeed. "

                  First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                  In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                  insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                  from "Health and Illness in 1922:

                  "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                  give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                  to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                  blood children will be born in Europe"

                  Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                  investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                  washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                  racist.

                  "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                  bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                  tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                  to me. Definitions, please."

                  "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                  The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                  not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                  differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                  different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                  But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                  only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                  Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                  Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                  development."

                  Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

                  "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                  millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                  come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                  cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                  surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                  many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                  brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                  that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                  the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                  because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                  could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                  necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

                  Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                  the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                  http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

                  "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                  until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                  suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                  already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                  reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                  physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                  incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                  genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                  observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                  among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                  already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                  uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                  reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                  Mill put it (7).

                  "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                  positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                  experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                  music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                  blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                  even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                  passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                  Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                  CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                  allowed to be so confused. "

                  Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                  might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                  blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                  another.












                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                  you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                  you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                  people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                  miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                  of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                  marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                  like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                  to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                  >
                  > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                  physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                  is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                  reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                  >
                  > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                  clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                  resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                  through spiritual science."
                  >
                  > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                  become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                  then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                  Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                  in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                  clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                  endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                  same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                  into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                  (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                  whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                  does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                  Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                  worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                  white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                  yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                  focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                  interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                  1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                  has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                  >
                  > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                  disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                  future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                  associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                  exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                  actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                  >
                  > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                  expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                  little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                  to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                  race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                  is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                  culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                  sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                  I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                  earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                  cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                  to culturally, indeed.
                  >
                  > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                  bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                  tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                  to me. Definitions, please.
                  >
                  > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                  The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                  not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                  differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                  different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                  But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                  only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                  Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                  Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                  development.
                  >
                  > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                  individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                  astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                  incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                  formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                  that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                  approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                  soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                  Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                  very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                  black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                  Malcolm X.
                  >
                  > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                  being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                  third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                  whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                  >
                  > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                  ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                  souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                  in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                  encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                  culture just as much as old ones.
                  >
                  > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                  nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                  spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                  >
                  > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                  positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                  experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                  music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                  blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                  even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                  passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                  Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                  CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                  allowed to be so confused.
                  >
                  > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                  science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                  is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                  here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                  because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                  year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                  Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                  problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                  manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                  so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                  dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                  countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                  souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                  >
                  > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                  born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                  here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                  civilization.
                  > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                  >
                  >
                  > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                  01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                  >
                  >
                  > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                  why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                  Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                  not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                  it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                  to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                  norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                  intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                  clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                  resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                  through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                  is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                  contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                  hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                  the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                  miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                  spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                  encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                  materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                  spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                  Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                  incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                  elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                  suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                  those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                  materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                  uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                  bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                  came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                  should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                  rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                  occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                  here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                  should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                  miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                  either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                  Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                  one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                  approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                  described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                  in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                  lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                  remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                  superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                  Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                  made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                  racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                  way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                  not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                  the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                  or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                  strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                  accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                  into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                  of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                  touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                  the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                  one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                  a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                  Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                  ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                  now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                  foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                  become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                  races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                  as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                  future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                  more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                  > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                  something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                  actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                  clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                  need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                  to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                  science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                  over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                  seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                  tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                  soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                  from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                  not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                  blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                  Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                  incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                  when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                  christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                  [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                  mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                  Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                  clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                  how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                  implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                  ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                  when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                  how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                  or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                  in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                  about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                  the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                  their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                  color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                  past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                  Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                  in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                  limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                  Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                  and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                  taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                  be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                  theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                  topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                  (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                  amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                  taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                  quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                  appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                  answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                  if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                  books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                  in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                  from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                  such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                  clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                  views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                  Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
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                • Durward Starman
                  ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                    >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                    did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
                     
                    *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
                     
                     
                     
                    >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                     
                    *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



                    >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                    cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                     
                     
                    ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



                     Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                    "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                    give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                    to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                    blood children will be born in Europe"
                    Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                    investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                    washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                    racist.

                    ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                        I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


                    >  Each spirit is an
                    individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                    astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                    incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                    formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                    that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                    approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                    soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                    Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                    very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
                    black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                    viz., Malcolm X.
                    > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                    being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                    third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                    whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                    > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                    nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                    spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
                     
                    Starman
                    www.DrStarma n.com

                    .



                    Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
                  • christopherraymond_bio
                    Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                      Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
                      hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
                      However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
                      quoted:

                      "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
                      become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
                      it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

                      Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
                      here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
                      races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
                      to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
                      he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
                      races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
                      if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

                      When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
                      having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
                      were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
                      early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
                      other statements about the Mongols.

                      I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
                      something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
                      races', I think.
                      Chris.



                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
                      question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
                      >
                      > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
                      post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
                      even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
                      another.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                      >
                      > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
                      > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                      cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                      >
                      >
                      > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
                      without having to have black fathers.
                      > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
                      convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
                      them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
                      Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
                      children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
                      say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
                      and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
                      angle in claiming he was a racist.
                      > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
                      shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
                      spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
                      stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
                      with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
                      kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
                      essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
                      can.
                      > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
                      is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
                      comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
                      bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
                      But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
                      That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
                      soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
                      an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
                      culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
                      skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
                      a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
                      school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
                      spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
                      moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                      > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
                      avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
                      things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
                      > www.DrStarman.com
                      > .
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
                      scramble challenge with star power.
                      > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
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                    • happypick2000
                      Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                        Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                        Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                        simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                        important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                        inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                        discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                        existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                        Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                        be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                        else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                        consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                        accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                        definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                        cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                        This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                        our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                        so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                        cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                        such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                        beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                        impasse.

                        Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                        the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                        haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                        the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                        mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                        Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                        spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                        Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                        plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                        to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                        perhaps as an etheric human?

                        We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                        we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                        to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                        actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                        important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                        Blessings,
                        Sheila

                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                        <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                        > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                        > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                        > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                        > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                        > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                        > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                        > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                        > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                        > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                        > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                        >
                        > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                        > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                        > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                        > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                        > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                        > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                        > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                        > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                        > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                        >
                        > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                        > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                        > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                        > School in Stuttgart":
                        >
                        > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                        > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                        > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                        > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                        > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                        > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                        > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                        > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                        > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                        > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                        > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                        > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                        > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                        > human form.
                        >
                        > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                        > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                        > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                        > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                        > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                        > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                        > 36-37)
                        >
                        > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                        > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                        > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                        > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                        > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                        > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                        > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                        > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                        > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                        > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                        > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                        > teaching that I find discouraging.
                        >
                        > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                        > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                        > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                        > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                        > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                        > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                        > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                        > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                        > bigot.
                        >
                        > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                        > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                        > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                        > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                        > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                        > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                        > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                        > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                        > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                        > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                        > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                        > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                        >
                        > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                        > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                        > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                        > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                        > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                        > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                        >
                        > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                        > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                        >
                        > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                        >
                        > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                        > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                        > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                        > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                        > science."
                        >
                        > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                        > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                        > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                        > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                        > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                        > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                        > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                        > honest question.
                        >
                        > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                        > of WWI":
                        >
                        > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                        > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                        > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                        > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                        > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                        > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                        > by the four other cultural epochs".
                        >
                        > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                        > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                        > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                        > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                        > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                        > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                        > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                        > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                        > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                        > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                        >
                        > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                        > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                        > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                        > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                        > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                        > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                        > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                        > opinion.
                        >
                        > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                        > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                        > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                        > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                        > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                        > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                        > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                        > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                        > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                        > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                        > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                        > to culturally, indeed. "
                        >
                        > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                        > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                        > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                        > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                        >
                        > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                        > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                        > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                        > blood children will be born in Europe"
                        >
                        > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                        > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                        > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                        > racist.
                        >
                        > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                        > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                        > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                        > to me. Definitions, please."
                        >
                        > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                        > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                        > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                        > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                        > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                        > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                        > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                        > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                        > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                        > development."
                        >
                        > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                        >
                        > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                        > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                        > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                        > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                        > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                        > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                        > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                        > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                        > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                        > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                        > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                        > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                        >
                        > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                        > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                        > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                        >
                        > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                        > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                        > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                        > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                        > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                        > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                        > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                        > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                        > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                        > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                        > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                        > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                        > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                        > Mill put it (7).
                        >
                        > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                        > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                        > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                        > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                        > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                        > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                        > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                        > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                        > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                        > allowed to be so confused. "
                        >
                        > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                        > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                        > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                        > another.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                        > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                        > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                        > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                        > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                        > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                        > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                        > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                        > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                        > >
                        > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                        > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                        > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                        > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                        > >
                        > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                        > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                        > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                        > through spiritual science."
                        > >
                        > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                        > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                        > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                        > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                        > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                        > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                        > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                        > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                        > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                        > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                        > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                        > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                        > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                        > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                        > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                        > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                        > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                        > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                        > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                        > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                        > >
                        > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                        > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                        > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                        > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                        > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                        > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                        > >
                        > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                        > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                        > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                        > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                        > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                        > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                        > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                        > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                        > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                        > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                        > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                        > to culturally, indeed.
                        > >
                        > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                        > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                        > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                        > to me. Definitions, please.
                        > >
                        > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                        > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                        > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                        > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                        > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                        > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                        > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                        > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                        > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                        > development.
                        > >
                        > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                        > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                        > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                        > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                        > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                        > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                        > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                        > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                        > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                        > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                        > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                        > Malcolm X.
                        > >
                        > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                        > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                        > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                        > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                        > >
                        > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                        > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                        > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                        > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                        > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                        > culture just as much as old ones.
                        > >
                        > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                        > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                        > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                        > >
                        > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                        > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                        > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                        > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                        > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                        > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                        > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                        > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                        > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                        > allowed to be so confused.
                        > >
                        > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                        > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                        > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                        > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                        > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                        > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                        > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                        > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                        > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                        > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                        > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                        > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                        > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                        > >
                        > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                        > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                        > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                        > civilization.
                        > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                        > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                        > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                        > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                        > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                        > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                        > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                        > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                        > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                        > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                        > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                        > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                        > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                        > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                        > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                        > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                        > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                        > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                        > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                        > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                        > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                        > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                        > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                        > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                        > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                        > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                        > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                        > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                        > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                        > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                        > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                        > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                        > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                        > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                        > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                        > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                        > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                        > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                        > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                        > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                        > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                        > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                        > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                        > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                        > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                        > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                        > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                        > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                        > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                        > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                        > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                        > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                        > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                        > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                        > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                        > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                        > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                        > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                        > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                        > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                        > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                        > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                        > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                        > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                        > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                        > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                        > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                        > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                        > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                        > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                        > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                        > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                        > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                        > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                        > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                        > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                        > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                        > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                        > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                        > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                        > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                        > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                        > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                        > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                        > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                        > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                        > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                        > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                        > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                        > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                        > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                        > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                        > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                        > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                        > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                        > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                        > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                        > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                        > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                        > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                        > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                        > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                        > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                        > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                        > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                        > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                        > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                        > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                        > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                        > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                        > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                        > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                        > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                        > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                        > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                        > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                        > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                        > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                        > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                        > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                        > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                        > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                        > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                        > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                        > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                        > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                        > > .
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
                        > scramble challenge with star power.
                        > > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
                        > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                        > >
                        >
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