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Re: Miscegenation?

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  • christopherraymond_bio
    I have concluded thus: On the one hand, all humans are limited to what the blood can handle in terms of exogamy or miscegenation. It is true that some older
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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      I have concluded thus:

      On the one hand, all humans are limited to what the blood can handle
      in terms of exogamy or miscegenation. It is true that some older
      races are less equipped to move past what is based upon the
      surroundings and those imprints within their own blood. Yet, we are
      also not bound to merely the bodily processes alone. However the
      fact remains still how racial differences do play a role in those who
      have not acquired the necessary faculties of becoming something more
      spiritual. As Dr. Steiner also mentioned, the races were not
      intended to co-exist but be consecutive. Thus what is more physical
      or dominant will take over in the long run through miscegenation and
      exogamy unless we can have a Spiritual Science as in Anthroposophy.

      Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics
      mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
      actual readings:

      http://sociologyesoscience.com/esoterica/cbooks1.html

      "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
      years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
      people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
      without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
      reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)

      Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
      http://www.ciis.edu/cayce/Smith.html

      "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)

      It would be easy for me or anyone to dismiss these readings as being
      spoken through a demonic channel, or a racist view that had much to
      do with Cayce's own personal beliefs. There are clues that led me to
      believe that he was referring to the vibrations of the Souls that
      incarnated into these Negro bodies; or more often than not it might
      have been the case.

      Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
      http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19101228p01.html and before we
      discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
      directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
      Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)

      "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
      and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
      the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
      being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
      discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
      astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
      to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
      Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
      the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
      philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
      older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
      opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
      in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
      that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
      here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
      coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
      negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
      characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
      expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
      calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
      a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
      preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
      the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
      Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
      value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
      nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
      essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
      soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
      whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
      only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
      culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
      opening up a wide vista into the future."

      We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
      transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
      the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
      skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
      a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
      the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
      lacking in genes.

      Dr. Steiner mentioned:

      "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
      must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
      were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
      perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
      form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."

      In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
      processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
      Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
      skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
      recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
      This is already known to biology today.

      Blessings,
      Chris



      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
      >
      > Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html
      >
      > "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
      > colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
      > evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
      > civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
      > people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood
      this
      > environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
      > new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
      > certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists
      came
      > to their particular parts of the world."
      >
      > Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
      > regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:
      >
      > "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
      > these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain
      that
      > the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."
      >
      >
      > Dr. Steiner continues....:
      >
      > "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
      > considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
      > upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
      > useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.
      >
      > Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
      > mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
      > fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
      > ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the
      lower
      > apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is
      too
      > far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
      > with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
      > mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
      > actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
      > clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
      > with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
      > entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
      > blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
      > influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace
      it
      > back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
      > conducted from this standpoint.
      >
      > We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
      > connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
      > case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
      > physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in
      contact
      > with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
      > blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
      > power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
      > exogamy.
      >
      > Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too
      far
      > removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
      > original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
      > destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
      > Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
      > similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
      > the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
      > strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
      > blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
      > consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
      > the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
      > been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
      > intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
      > That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in
      his
      > ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
      > principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital
      fluids
      > and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
      > the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
      > etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
      > system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
      > the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore,
      would
      > master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be
      borne
      > in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For
      example,
      > the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
      > you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood
      the
      > ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
      > possess his blood."
      >
      >
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
      > The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
      > the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:
      >
      > "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
      > itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
      > also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
      > heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
      > expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
      > These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
      > innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
      > was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
      > developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed
      their
      > ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the
      outer
      > world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
      > scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the
      Atlantean
      > initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other
      men
      > who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
      > of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
      > could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed
      ego-
      > feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
      > became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
      > were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
      > ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from
      the
      > outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
      > surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
      > human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use
      for
      > the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
      > great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
      > of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
      > strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
      > manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the
      West
      > and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the
      Red
      > Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
      > developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
      > became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
      > those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
      > evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
      > brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and
      on
      > the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
      > the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of
      egohood
      > is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling
      of
      > ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
      > as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these
      two
      > phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the
      West
      > and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
      > whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
      > people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
      > who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like
      plants:
      > they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin
      and
      > became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
      > Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
      > population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
      > developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who
      had
      > developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
      > were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from
      the
      > place we know of in Asia."
      >
      > The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
      > developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
      > advanced stages of Ego development."
      >
      > "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
      > the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
      > stages of development. These were also turned to account, of
      course.
      > To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
      > suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
      > example, in the migration from West to East a people remained
      behind
      > in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
      > degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
      > from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
      > result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
      > the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
      > especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
      > feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least
      in
      > this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples
      who
      > had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
      > milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
      > rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
      > nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
      > outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able
      to
      > say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
      > personality was from the beginning their essential feature."
      >
      > Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on
      something
      > more than environment:
      >
      > "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
      > situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
      > which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave
      rise
      > to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
      > direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
      > possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is
      very
      > important that we realise the connection between the sun's
      influence
      > on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
      > matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see
      how
      > much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these
      possible
      > shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that
      particular
      > part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
      > were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
      > till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
      > people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised
      by
      > peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
      > acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours
      to
      > be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
      > have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
      > the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
      > world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls
      in
      > every possible part of Asia."
      >
      > Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
      > ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.
      >
      > "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and
      African
      > peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
      > combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
      > manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups
      of
      > people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming
      the
      > root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
      > the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
      > feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the
      ego-
      > feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
      > North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times,
      you
      > find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
      > were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
      > character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on
      the
      > bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia
      with
      > passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity
      expresses
      > itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
      > etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
      > the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
      > people"
      >
      > "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
      > Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
      > countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let
      us
      > remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
      > found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies
      but
      > whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
      > fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
      > physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward.
      And
      > we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just
      think
      > how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
      > times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
      > who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
      > one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
      > other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves
      with
      > the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
      > to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with
      the
      > one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
      > say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
      > individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
      > two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
      > arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and
      West.
      > And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea
      of
      > God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
      > itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
      > Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
      > personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
      > we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of
      a
      > God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
      > developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this
      particular
      > belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still
      inward,
      > still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
      > still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a
      small
      > degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
      > personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
      > also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner
      being.
      > Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the
      greatest
      > wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
      > Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And
      because
      > these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
      > entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
      > remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
      > remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
      > clairvoyance."
      >
      >
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
      >
      > "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
      > civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
      > era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it
      were,
      > but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
      > understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in
      a
      > certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a
      higher
      > ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
      > learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's
      inhabitant's
      > did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
      > development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard
      to
      > the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
      > Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
      > earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What
      would
      > they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
      > development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
      > develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
      > men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
      > strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that
      is
      > how they became red. Their development led them into decadence.
      Among
      > the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
      > the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call
      inner
      > brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
      > could find within themselves everything that had to be developed.
      At
      > the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
      > significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
      > altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They
      did
      > not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner.
      But
      > those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
      > they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
      > the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
      > holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
      > future."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
      > >
      > > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I
      will
      > > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
      > have
      > > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
      > > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp
      his
      > > views.
      > >
      > > Blessings,
      > > Chris.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@>
      wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
      races:
      > > > >
      > > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
      > > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
      > > order to
      > > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we
      interpret
      > > this
      > > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
      be
      > > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
      > > developing
      > > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
      > > > >
      > > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races
      it
      > > becomes
      > > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
      > > advanced
      > > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
      > > running
      > > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example,
      Dr.
      > > Steiner
      > > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
      > due
      > > in
      > > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
      > too
      > > slow
      > > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
      > > > >
      > > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
      > > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin.
      For
      > > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
      > America
      > > who
      > > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
      > > signifying
      > > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
      > which
      > > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
      Likewise,
      > > that
      > > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and
      had
      > > not
      > > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
      taught
      > how
      > > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
      > > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
      these
      > > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
      to
      > > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
      > > pregnancy.
      > > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
      am
      > > > > unclear.)
      > > > >
      > > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
      > taught
      > > we
      > > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
      > > quotes, or
      > > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
      > any
      > > help
      > > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
      > > question of
      > > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be
      understood
      > > > > correctly.
      > > > >
      > > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
      > > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
      > > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
      > from
      > > the
      > > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
      > such
      > > a
      > > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
      > > clear I
      > > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
      > > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks in advance,
      > > > > Chris.
      > > > >
      > > > Dear Chris and Friends,
      > > >
      > > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see
      a
      > > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough
      to
      > > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
      > understandable
      > > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to
      Steiner's
      > > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
      > Folk
      > > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding
      the
      > > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
      > > Souls,
      > > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
      > would
      > > be,
      > > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
      > > of "Kar.
      > > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
      > > Movement".
      > > >
      > > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls"
      and
      > > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that
      concept,
      > > but
      > > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's
      advancement
      > > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
      > understanding
      > > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
      > > personal
      > > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point
      as
      > > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
      > > >
      > > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
      > > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
      > > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
      > > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
      > > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
      > > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
      > > abeyance
      > > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
      > > insights
      > > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't
      able
      > to
      > > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface
      is
      > > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific
      work.
      > I
      > > > include it below as it is in my copy.
      > > >
      > >
      >
      ======================================================================
      > > > PREFACE
      > > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
      > > 1910.]
      > > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in
      June
      > > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
      > > development
      > > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
      > > Anthroposophy
      > > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
      > > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
      > able
      > > to
      > > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar
      with
      > the
      > > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That
      is
      > the
      > > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
      > > however a
      > > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
      > > anthroposophy,
      > > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate
      framework
      > > for a
      > > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
      > > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
      > anatomy
      > > and
      > > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
      > man.
      > > If
      > > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
      > study
      > > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
      > insight
      > > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
      > > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
      > > element,
      > > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
      > souls
      > > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
      > higher
      > > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a
      total
      > > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak
      of
      > > Folk
      > > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
      > reality
      > > of
      > > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and
      it
      > is
      > > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
      > to
      > > the
      > > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases
      to
      > be
      > > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
      > which
      > > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
      > > needle
      > > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the
      effect
      > of
      > > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the
      causes
      > of
      > > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the
      reasons
      > for
      > > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
      > > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
      > > anthroposophical
      > > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
      > > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which
      sees a
      > > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
      > seeds
      > > the
      > > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality.
      We
      > > then
      > > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
      > > peoples
      > > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
      > The
      > > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
      > > mutual
      > > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
      > this
      > > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach.
      Either
      > > one
      > > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
      > > reality
      > > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
      > > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
      > early
      > > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
      > beings.
      > > An
      > > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the
      use
      > of
      > > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
      > there
      > > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
      > > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
      > > Western
      > > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen,
      or
      > if
      > > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
      > only
      > > be
      > > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
      > > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It
      seems
      > to
      > > me
      > > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual
      relationships,
      > > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object
      to
      > > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
      > > physical
      > > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
      > electricity,
      > > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
      > > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
      > > painful
      > > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I
      then
      > > said
      > > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now.
      {February
      > > 1918}
      > > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that
      in
      > the
      > > > light of the present world situation these earlier
      investigations
      > > were
      > > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture
      you
      > > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
      > > especially
      > > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the
      mission
      > of
      > > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to
      maintain
      > > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in
      order
      > > today
      > > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly
      important
      > > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
      > > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case
      in
      > > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the
      members
      > of
      > > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
      > free
      > > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
      > understanding
      > > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
      > call 'the
      > > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come
      when
      > > the
      > > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
      > > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls"
      which
      > > shows
      > > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
      > supersensible
      > > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view
      of
      > > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
      > life.
      > > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses
      such
      > > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order
      to
      > > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
      > > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
      > exploiting
      > > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit
      of
      > > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
      > mankind
      > > we
      > > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science
      is
      > > the
      > > > first demand of our age.
      > > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf
      Steiner
      > > >
      > >
      >
      ======================================================================
      > >
      > > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
      > > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
      > found
      > > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found
      in
      > > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
      > > incredibly
      > > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
      > Friends.
      > > >
      > > > Blessings,
      > > > Sheila
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • happypick2000
      Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner s words dealing with the Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be thoroughly researched.
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner's words dealing with the
        Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be
        thoroughly researched.
        Blessings,
        Sheila

        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
        >
        > Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html
        >
        > "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
        > colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
        > evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
        > civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
        > people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
        > environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
        > new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
        > certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came
        > to their particular parts of the world."
        >
        > Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
        > regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:
        >
        > "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
        > these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that
        > the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."
        >
        >
        > Dr. Steiner continues....:
        >
        > "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
        > considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
        > upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
        > useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.
        >
        > Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
        > mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
        > fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
        > ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the lower
        > apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is too
        > far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
        > with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
        > mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
        > actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
        > clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
        > with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
        > entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
        > blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
        > influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace it
        > back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
        > conducted from this standpoint.
        >
        > We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
        > connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
        > case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
        > physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in contact
        > with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
        > blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
        > power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
        > exogamy.
        >
        > Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too far
        > removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
        > original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
        > destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
        > Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
        > similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
        > the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
        > strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
        > blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
        > consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
        > the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
        > been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
        > intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
        > That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in his
        > ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
        > principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital fluids
        > and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
        > the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
        > etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
        > system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
        > the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore, would
        > master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be borne
        > in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For example,
        > the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
        > you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood the
        > ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
        > possess his blood."
        >
        >
        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
        > The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
        > the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:
        >
        > "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
        > itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
        > also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
        > heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
        > expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
        > These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
        > innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
        > was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
        > developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed their
        > ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the outer
        > world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
        > scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the Atlantean
        > initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other men
        > who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
        > of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
        > could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed ego-
        > feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
        > became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
        > were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
        > ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from the
        > outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
        > surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
        > human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use for
        > the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
        > great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
        > of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
        > strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
        > manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the West
        > and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the Red
        > Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
        > developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
        > became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
        > those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
        > evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
        > brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and on
        > the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
        > the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of egohood
        > is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling of
        > ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
        > as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these two
        > phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the West
        > and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
        > whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
        > people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
        > who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like plants:
        > they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin and
        > became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
        > Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
        > population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
        > developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who had
        > developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
        > were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from the
        > place we know of in Asia."
        >
        > The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
        > developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
        > advanced stages of Ego development."
        >
        > "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
        > the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
        > stages of development. These were also turned to account, of course.
        > To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
        > suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
        > example, in the migration from West to East a people remained behind
        > in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
        > degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
        > from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
        > result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
        > the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
        > especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
        > feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least in
        > this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples who
        > had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
        > milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
        > rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
        > nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
        > outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able to
        > say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
        > personality was from the beginning their essential feature."
        >
        > Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on something
        > more than environment:
        >
        > "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
        > situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
        > which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave rise
        > to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
        > direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
        > possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is very
        > important that we realise the connection between the sun's influence
        > on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
        > matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see how
        > much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these possible
        > shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that particular
        > part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
        > were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
        > till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
        > people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised by
        > peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
        > acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours to
        > be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
        > have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
        > the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
        > world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls in
        > every possible part of Asia."
        >
        > Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
        > ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.
        >
        > "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and African
        > peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
        > combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
        > manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups of
        > people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming the
        > root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
        > the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
        > feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the ego-
        > feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
        > North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times, you
        > find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
        > were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
        > character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on the
        > bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia with
        > passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity expresses
        > itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
        > etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
        > the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
        > people"
        >
        > "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
        > Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
        > countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let us
        > remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
        > found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies but
        > whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
        > fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
        > physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward. And
        > we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just think
        > how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
        > times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
        > who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
        > one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
        > other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves with
        > the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
        > to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with the
        > one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
        > say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
        > individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
        > two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
        > arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and West.
        > And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea of
        > God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
        > itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
        > Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
        > personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
        > we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of a
        > God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
        > developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this particular
        > belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still inward,
        > still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
        > still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a small
        > degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
        > personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
        > also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner being.
        > Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the greatest
        > wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
        > Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And because
        > these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
        > entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
        > remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
        > remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
        > clairvoyance."
        >
        >
        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
        >
        > "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
        > civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
        > era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it were,
        > but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
        > understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in a
        > certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a higher
        > ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
        > learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's inhabitant's
        > did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
        > development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard to
        > the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
        > Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
        > earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What would
        > they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
        > development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
        > develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
        > men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
        > strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that is
        > how they became red. Their development led them into decadence. Among
        > the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
        > the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call inner
        > brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
        > could find within themselves everything that had to be developed. At
        > the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
        > significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
        > altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They did
        > not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner. But
        > those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
        > they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
        > the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
        > holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
        > future."
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
        > >
        > > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
        > > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
        > have
        > > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
        > > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
        > > views.
        > >
        > > Blessings,
        > > Chris.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
        > > > >
        > > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
        > > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
        > > order to
        > > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
        > > this
        > > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
        > > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
        > > developing
        > > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
        > > > >
        > > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
        > > becomes
        > > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
        > > advanced
        > > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
        > > running
        > > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
        > > Steiner
        > > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
        > due
        > > in
        > > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
        > too
        > > slow
        > > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
        > > > >
        > > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
        > > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
        > > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
        > America
        > > who
        > > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
        > > signifying
        > > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
        > which
        > > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
        > > that
        > > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
        > > not
        > > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught
        > how
        > > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
        > > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
        > > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
        > > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
        > > pregnancy.
        > > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
        > > > > unclear.)
        > > > >
        > > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
        > taught
        > > we
        > > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
        > > quotes, or
        > > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
        > any
        > > help
        > > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
        > > question of
        > > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
        > > > > correctly.
        > > > >
        > > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
        > > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
        > > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
        > from
        > > the
        > > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
        > such
        > > a
        > > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
        > > clear I
        > > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
        > > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks in advance,
        > > > > Chris.
        > > > >
        > > > Dear Chris and Friends,
        > > >
        > > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
        > > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
        > > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
        > understandable
        > > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
        > > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
        > Folk
        > > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
        > > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
        > > Souls,
        > > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
        > would
        > > be,
        > > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
        > > of "Kar.
        > > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
        > > Movement".
        > > >
        > > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
        > > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
        > > but
        > > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
        > > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
        > understanding
        > > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
        > > personal
        > > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
        > > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
        > > >
        > > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
        > > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
        > > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
        > > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
        > > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
        > > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
        > > abeyance
        > > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
        > > insights
        > > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able
        > to
        > > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
        > > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work.
        > I
        > > > include it below as it is in my copy.
        > > >
        > >
        > ======================================================================
        > > > PREFACE
        > > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
        > > 1910.]
        > > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
        > > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
        > > development
        > > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
        > > Anthroposophy
        > > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
        > > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
        > able
        > > to
        > > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with
        > the
        > > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is
        > the
        > > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
        > > however a
        > > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
        > > anthroposophy,
        > > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
        > > for a
        > > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
        > > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
        > anatomy
        > > and
        > > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
        > man.
        > > If
        > > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
        > study
        > > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
        > insight
        > > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
        > > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
        > > element,
        > > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
        > souls
        > > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
        > higher
        > > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
        > > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
        > > Folk
        > > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
        > reality
        > > of
        > > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it
        > is
        > > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
        > to
        > > the
        > > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to
        > be
        > > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
        > which
        > > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
        > > needle
        > > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect
        > of
        > > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes
        > of
        > > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons
        > for
        > > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
        > > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
        > > anthroposophical
        > > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
        > > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
        > > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
        > seeds
        > > the
        > > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
        > > then
        > > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
        > > peoples
        > > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
        > The
        > > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
        > > mutual
        > > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
        > this
        > > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
        > > one
        > > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
        > > reality
        > > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
        > > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
        > early
        > > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
        > beings.
        > > An
        > > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use
        > of
        > > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
        > there
        > > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
        > > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
        > > Western
        > > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or
        > if
        > > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
        > only
        > > be
        > > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
        > > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems
        > to
        > > me
        > > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
        > > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
        > > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
        > > physical
        > > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
        > electricity,
        > > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
        > > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
        > > painful
        > > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
        > > said
        > > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
        > > 1918}
        > > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in
        > the
        > > > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
        > > were
        > > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
        > > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
        > > especially
        > > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission
        > of
        > > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
        > > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
        > > today
        > > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
        > > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
        > > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
        > > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members
        > of
        > > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
        > free
        > > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
        > understanding
        > > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
        > call 'the
        > > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
        > > the
        > > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
        > > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
        > > shows
        > > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
        > supersensible
        > > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
        > > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
        > life.
        > > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
        > > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
        > > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
        > > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
        > exploiting
        > > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
        > > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
        > mankind
        > > we
        > > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
        > > the
        > > > first demand of our age.
        > > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
        > > >
        > >
        > ======================================================================
        > >
        > > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
        > > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
        > found
        > > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
        > > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
        > > incredibly
        > > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
        > Friends.
        > > >
        > > > Blessings,
        > > > Sheila
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Durward Starman
        ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it s important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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          ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.
           
             Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that races as we have known them will become of less and less importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.
           
             So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the need for endogamy is long over.
           
            For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
           
             As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're Caucasian, etc.
           
          -Starman




          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          From: christopherraymond_bio@...
          Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000
          Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?

          The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:

          There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
          miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
          advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
          today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
          engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
          a revived form of clairvoyance.

          However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
          clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
          Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
          around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
          wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
          part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
          after their decent out from Atlantis.

          He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
          ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
          example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
          were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
          the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
          prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
          the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
          yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
          the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
          `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
          races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
          pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
          (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
          unclear.)

          Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
          should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
          sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
          if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
          whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
          correctly.

          What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
          internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
          translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
          books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
          gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
          think, without all the going back and forth between views,
          translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.

          Thanks in advance,
          Chris.




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        • Durward Starman
          ... *******I ve never heard of that quote, and I can t find it at that link. Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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            >Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
            actual readings:
            http://sociologyeso science.com/ esoterica/ cbooks1.html
            "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
            years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
            people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
            without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
            reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)
             
            *******This was a reading given early in Cayce's career when his father, a violent racist, conducted the readings. Cayce's stenographer, Gladys Davis Turner, said she felt that it was his influence on the unconscious Cayce that resulted in this insult --- which was, by the way, contradicted by many, many statements throughout the rest of Cayce's career after his father was removed from his position as conductor for secretly getting information on horse races for friends. This is why it's not just that anthroposophy is 'better' in some vague way that trance psychics, but specifically they are open to all sorts of suggestion and influence. The readings praising Hitler were done in a house full of Germans, for instance.
             


            >Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
            http://www.ciis. edu/cayce/ Smith.html

            "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)
             
            *******I've never heard of that quote, and I can't find it at that link.
             
             


            Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
            http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ Dates/19101228p0 1.html and before we
            discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
            directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
            Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)
            "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
            and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
            the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
            being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
            discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
            astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
            to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
            Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
            the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
            philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
            older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
            opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
            in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
            that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
            here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
            coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
            negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
            characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
            expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
            calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
            a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
            preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
            the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
            Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
            value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
            nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
            essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
            soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
            whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
            only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
            culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
            opening up a wide vista into the future."
             
             
            *******If you study about 'young' and 'old' souls, you'll find that Dr. Steiner was not implying the one is good and the other bad. He says the young souls bring a new, fresh impulse into the world. In his Mystery Plays, he portrays them as Dr. Strader and Professor Capesius, and each has his area of weakness.
               Look at how the Negro brought a new vitality into European music, for instance. It certainly can't be said to be all good (God, I'm sick of hearing rap 'music'!), but no one would say it was all bad, either.
             


            >We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
            transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
            the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
            skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
            a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
            the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
            lacking in genes.
            Dr. Steiner mentioned:
            "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
            must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
            were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
            perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
            form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."
            In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
            processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
            Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
            skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
            recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
            This is already known to biology today.
            Blessings,
            Chris
             
            *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends race, not race anymore.
             
            -Starman


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          • christopherraymond_bio
            Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro novels giving birth
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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              Duward,
              You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
              Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
              novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
              feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
              it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
              to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
              norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
              intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
              clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
              resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
              through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
              miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
              preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
              skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
              danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
              blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
              intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
              miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
              becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
              turning toward spiritual science?

              The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
              bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
              areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
              could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
              living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
              experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
              materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
              uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
              bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
              Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
              so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
              rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
              occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
              here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
              should experience what is required.

              If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
              cultural development as much either, what do you think?





              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
              many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
              the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
              in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
              Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
              century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
              people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
              basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
              worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
              also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
              subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
              animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
              a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
              act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
              of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
              the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
              with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
              that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
              grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
              Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
              group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
              influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
              many types of blood, for instance.
              >
              > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
              studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
              longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
              blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
              It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
              that races as we have known them will become of less and less
              importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
              distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
              and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
              less.
              >
              > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
              was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
              actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
              clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
              need for endogamy is long over.
              >
              > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
              is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
              learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
              inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
              completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
              anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
              enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
              is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
              >
              > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
              and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
              no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
              them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
              Caucasian, etc.
              >
              > -Starman
              >
              >
              > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
              20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
              >
              >
              > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
              races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
              howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
              toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
              thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
              beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
              developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
              teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
              are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
              with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
              trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
              Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
              people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
              decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
              of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
              the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
              America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
              signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
              limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
              Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
              and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
              taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
              be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
              theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
              topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
              (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
              amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
              taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
              quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
              appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
              answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
              if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
              books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
              in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
              from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
              such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
              clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
              views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
              Thanks in advance,Chris.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
              scramble challenge with star power.
              > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
              icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
              >
            • christopherraymond_bio
              *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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                "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
                replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
                science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
                think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
                race, not race anymore. "

                I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
                be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
                we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
                allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
                path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
                fulfill that requirement in that body?
              • Durward Starman
                *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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                  *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                   
                     Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                   
                   "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                  clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                  resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                  through spiritual science."
                   
                      The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                   
                     I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                   
                     Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
                   
                     I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
                   
                     Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
                   
                     But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
                   
                     These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                   
                     Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
                   
                     I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                   
                     But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
                   
                     Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                   
                     But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

                  Starman
                  www.DrStarman.com



                  To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                  From: christopherraymond_bio@...
                  Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
                  Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

                  Duward,
                  You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
                  Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
                  novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
                  feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                  it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                  to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                  norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                  intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                  clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                  resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                  through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
                  miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
                  preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
                  skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
                  danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
                  blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
                  intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
                  miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
                  becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
                  turning toward spiritual science?

                  The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
                  bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
                  areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
                  could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
                  living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
                  experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                  materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                  uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                  bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
                  Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
                  so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                  rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                  occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                  here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                  should experience what is required.

                  If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
                  cultural development as much either, what do you think?

                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
                  many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
                  the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
                  in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
                  Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
                  century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
                  people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
                  basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
                  worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
                  also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
                  subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
                  animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
                  a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
                  act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
                  of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
                  the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
                  with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
                  that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
                  grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
                  Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
                  group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
                  influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
                  many types of blood, for instance.
                  >
                  > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
                  studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
                  longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
                  blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
                  It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
                  that races as we have known them will become of less and less
                  importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
                  distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
                  and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
                  less.
                  >
                  > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
                  was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                  actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                  clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                  need for endogamy is long over.
                  >
                  > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
                  is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
                  learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
                  inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
                  completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
                  anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
                  enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
                  is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                  >
                  > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
                  and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
                  no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
                  them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
                  Caucasian, etc.
                  >
                  > -Starman
                  >
                  >
                  > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
                  20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
                  >
                  >
                  > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
                  races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
                  howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
                  toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
                  thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
                  beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
                  developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
                  teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
                  are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
                  with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
                  trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
                  Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
                  people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
                  decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
                  of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
                  the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
                  America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
                  signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                  limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                  Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                  and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                  taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                  be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                  theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                  topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                  (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                  amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                  taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                  quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                  appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                  answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                  if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
                  books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                  in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                  from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                  such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                  clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                  views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                  Thanks in advance,Chris.
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  .



                  Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
                • christopherraymond_bio
                  Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                    Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                    did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                    mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                    Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                    discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                    have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                    him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                    any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                    through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                    it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                    sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

                    "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                    you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                    you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                    people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                    miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                    of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                    marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                    like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                    to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

                    Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                    several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                    statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                    School in Stuttgart":

                    "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                    more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                    exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                    not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                    human race...They are very different from human beings where
                    spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                    sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                    there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                    would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                    are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                    there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                    enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                    particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                    human form.

                    "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                    already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                    frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                    professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                    death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                    "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                    36-37)

                    After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                    further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                    agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                    past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                    have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                    I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                    just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                    absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                    me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                    poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                    matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                    teaching that I find discouraging.

                    Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                    cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                    has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                    happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                    daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                    hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                    miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                    voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                    bigot.

                    To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                    What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                    reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                    racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                    should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                    but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                    profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                    companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                    certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                    is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                    this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                    regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

                    > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                    disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                    future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                    associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                    exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                    actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

                    Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                    experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

                    This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

                    "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                    [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                    dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                    they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                    science."

                    However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                    blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                    no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                    of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                    to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                    it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                    and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                    honest question.

                    Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                    of WWI":

                    "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                    spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                    white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                    within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                    the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                    that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                    by the four other cultural epochs".

                    "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                    impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                    the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                    clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                    spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                    in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                    the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                    demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                    skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                    do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

                    Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                    acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                    introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                    again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                    into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                    seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                    most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                    opinion.

                    "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                    expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                    little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                    to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                    race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                    is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                    culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                    sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                    I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                    earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                    cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                    to culturally, indeed. "

                    First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                    In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                    insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                    from "Health and Illness in 1922:

                    "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                    give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                    to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                    blood children will be born in Europe"

                    Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                    investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                    washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                    racist.

                    "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                    bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                    tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                    to me. Definitions, please."

                    "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                    The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                    not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                    differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                    different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                    But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                    only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                    Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                    Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                    development."

                    Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

                    "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                    millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                    come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                    cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                    surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                    many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                    brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                    that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                    the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                    because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                    could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                    necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

                    Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                    the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                    http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

                    "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                    until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                    suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                    already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                    reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                    physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                    incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                    genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                    observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                    among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                    already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                    uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                    reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                    Mill put it (7).

                    "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                    positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                    experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                    music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                    blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                    even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                    passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                    Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                    CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                    allowed to be so confused. "

                    Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                    might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                    blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                    another.












                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                    you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                    you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                    people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                    miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                    of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                    marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                    like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                    to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                    >
                    > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                    physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                    is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                    reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                    >
                    > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                    clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                    resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                    through spiritual science."
                    >
                    > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                    become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                    then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                    Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                    in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                    clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                    endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                    same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                    into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                    (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                    whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                    does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                    Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                    worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                    white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                    yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                    focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                    interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                    1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                    has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                    >
                    > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                    disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                    future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                    associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                    exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                    actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                    >
                    > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                    expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                    little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                    to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                    race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                    is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                    culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                    sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                    I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                    earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                    cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                    to culturally, indeed.
                    >
                    > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                    bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                    tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                    to me. Definitions, please.
                    >
                    > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                    The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                    not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                    differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                    different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                    But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                    only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                    Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                    Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                    development.
                    >
                    > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                    individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                    astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                    incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                    formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                    that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                    approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                    soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                    Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                    very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                    black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                    Malcolm X.
                    >
                    > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                    being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                    third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                    whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                    >
                    > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                    ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                    souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                    in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                    encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                    culture just as much as old ones.
                    >
                    > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                    nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                    spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                    >
                    > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                    positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                    experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                    music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                    blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                    even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                    passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                    Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                    CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                    allowed to be so confused.
                    >
                    > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                    science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                    is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                    here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                    because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                    year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                    Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                    problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                    manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                    so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                    dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                    countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                    souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                    >
                    > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                    born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                    here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                    civilization.
                    > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                    >
                    >
                    > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                    01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                    >
                    >
                    > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                    why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                    Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                    not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                    it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                    to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                    norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                    intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                    clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                    resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                    through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                    is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                    contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                    hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                    the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                    miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                    spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                    encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                    materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                    spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                    Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                    incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                    elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                    suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                    those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                    materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                    uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                    bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                    came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                    should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                    rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                    occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                    here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                    should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                    miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                    either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                    Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                    one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                    approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                    described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                    in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                    lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                    remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                    superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                    Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                    made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                    racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                    way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                    not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                    the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                    or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                    strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                    accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                    into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                    of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                    touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                    the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                    one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                    a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                    Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                    ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                    now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                    foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                    become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                    races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                    as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                    future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                    more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                    > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                    something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                    actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                    clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                    need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                    to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                    science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                    over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                    seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                    tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                    soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                    from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                    not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                    blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                    Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                    incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                    when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                    christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                    [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                    mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                    Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                    clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                    how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                    implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                    ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                    when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                    how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                    or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                    in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                    about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                    the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                    their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                    color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                    past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                    Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                    in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                    limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                    Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                    and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                    taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                    be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                    theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                    topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                    (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                    amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                    taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                    quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                    appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                    answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                    if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                    books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                    in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                    from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                    such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                    clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                    views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                    Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                    > .
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
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                  • Durward Starman
                    ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                      >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                      did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
                       
                      *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
                       
                       
                       
                      >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                       
                      *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



                      >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                      cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                       
                       
                      ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



                       Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                      "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                      give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                      to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                      blood children will be born in Europe"
                      Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                      investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                      washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                      racist.

                      ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                          I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


                      >  Each spirit is an
                      individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                      astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                      incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                      formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                      that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                      approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                      soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                      Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                      very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
                      black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                      viz., Malcolm X.
                      > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                      being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                      third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                      whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                      > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                      nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                      spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
                       
                      Starman
                      www.DrStarma n.com

                      .



                      Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
                    • christopherraymond_bio
                      Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                        Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
                        hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
                        However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
                        quoted:

                        "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
                        become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
                        it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

                        Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
                        here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
                        races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
                        to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
                        he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
                        races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
                        if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

                        When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
                        having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
                        were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
                        early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
                        other statements about the Mongols.

                        I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
                        something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
                        races', I think.
                        Chris.



                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
                        question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
                        >
                        > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
                        post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
                        even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
                        another.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                        >
                        > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
                        > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                        cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                        >
                        >
                        > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
                        without having to have black fathers.
                        > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
                        convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
                        them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
                        Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
                        children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
                        say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
                        and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
                        angle in claiming he was a racist.
                        > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
                        shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
                        spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
                        stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
                        with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
                        kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
                        essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
                        can.
                        > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
                        is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
                        comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
                        bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
                        But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
                        That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
                        soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
                        an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
                        culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
                        skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
                        a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
                        school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
                        spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
                        moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                        > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
                        avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
                        things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
                        > www.DrStarman.com
                        > .
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
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                      • happypick2000
                        Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                          Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                          Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                          simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                          important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                          inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                          discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                          existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                          Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                          be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                          else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                          consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                          accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                          definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                          cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                          This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                          our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                          so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                          cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                          such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                          beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                          impasse.

                          Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                          the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                          haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                          the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                          mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                          Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                          spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                          Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                          plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                          to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                          perhaps as an etheric human?

                          We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                          we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                          to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                          actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                          important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                          Blessings,
                          Sheila

                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                          <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                          > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                          > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                          > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                          > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                          > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                          > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                          > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                          > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                          > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                          > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                          >
                          > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                          > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                          > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                          > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                          > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                          > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                          > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                          > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                          > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                          >
                          > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                          > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                          > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                          > School in Stuttgart":
                          >
                          > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                          > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                          > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                          > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                          > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                          > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                          > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                          > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                          > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                          > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                          > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                          > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                          > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                          > human form.
                          >
                          > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                          > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                          > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                          > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                          > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                          > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                          > 36-37)
                          >
                          > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                          > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                          > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                          > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                          > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                          > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                          > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                          > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                          > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                          > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                          > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                          > teaching that I find discouraging.
                          >
                          > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                          > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                          > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                          > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                          > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                          > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                          > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                          > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                          > bigot.
                          >
                          > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                          > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                          > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                          > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                          > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                          > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                          > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                          > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                          > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                          > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                          > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                          > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                          >
                          > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                          > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                          > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                          > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                          > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                          > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                          >
                          > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                          > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                          >
                          > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                          >
                          > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                          > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                          > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                          > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                          > science."
                          >
                          > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                          > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                          > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                          > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                          > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                          > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                          > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                          > honest question.
                          >
                          > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                          > of WWI":
                          >
                          > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                          > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                          > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                          > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                          > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                          > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                          > by the four other cultural epochs".
                          >
                          > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                          > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                          > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                          > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                          > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                          > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                          > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                          > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                          > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                          > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                          >
                          > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                          > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                          > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                          > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                          > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                          > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                          > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                          > opinion.
                          >
                          > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                          > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                          > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                          > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                          > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                          > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                          > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                          > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                          > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                          > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                          > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                          > to culturally, indeed. "
                          >
                          > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                          > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                          > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                          > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                          >
                          > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                          > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                          > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                          > blood children will be born in Europe"
                          >
                          > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                          > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                          > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                          > racist.
                          >
                          > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                          > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                          > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                          > to me. Definitions, please."
                          >
                          > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                          > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                          > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                          > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                          > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                          > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                          > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                          > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                          > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                          > development."
                          >
                          > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                          >
                          > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                          > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                          > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                          > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                          > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                          > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                          > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                          > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                          > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                          > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                          > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                          > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                          >
                          > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                          > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                          > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                          >
                          > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                          > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                          > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                          > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                          > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                          > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                          > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                          > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                          > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                          > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                          > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                          > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                          > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                          > Mill put it (7).
                          >
                          > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                          > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                          > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                          > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                          > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                          > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                          > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                          > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                          > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                          > allowed to be so confused. "
                          >
                          > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                          > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                          > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                          > another.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                          > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                          > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                          > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                          > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                          > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                          > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                          > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                          > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                          > >
                          > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                          > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                          > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                          > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                          > >
                          > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                          > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                          > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                          > through spiritual science."
                          > >
                          > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                          > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                          > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                          > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                          > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                          > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                          > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                          > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                          > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                          > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                          > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                          > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                          > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                          > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                          > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                          > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                          > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                          > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                          > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                          > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                          > >
                          > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                          > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                          > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                          > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                          > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                          > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                          > >
                          > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                          > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                          > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                          > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                          > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                          > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                          > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                          > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                          > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                          > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                          > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                          > to culturally, indeed.
                          > >
                          > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                          > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                          > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                          > to me. Definitions, please.
                          > >
                          > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                          > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                          > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                          > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                          > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                          > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                          > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                          > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                          > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                          > development.
                          > >
                          > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                          > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                          > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                          > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                          > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                          > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                          > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                          > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                          > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                          > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                          > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                          > Malcolm X.
                          > >
                          > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                          > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                          > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                          > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                          > >
                          > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                          > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                          > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                          > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                          > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                          > culture just as much as old ones.
                          > >
                          > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                          > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                          > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                          > >
                          > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                          > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                          > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                          > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                          > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                          > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                          > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                          > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                          > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                          > allowed to be so confused.
                          > >
                          > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                          > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                          > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                          > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                          > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                          > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                          > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                          > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                          > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                          > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                          > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                          > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                          > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                          > >
                          > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                          > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                          > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                          > civilization.
                          > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                          > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                          > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                          > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                          > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                          > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                          > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                          > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                          > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                          > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                          > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                          > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                          > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                          > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                          > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                          > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                          > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                          > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                          > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                          > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                          > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                          > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                          > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                          > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                          > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                          > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                          > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                          > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                          > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                          > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                          > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                          > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                          > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                          > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                          > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                          > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                          > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                          > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                          > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                          > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                          > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                          > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                          > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                          > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                          > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                          > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                          > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                          > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                          > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                          > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                          > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                          > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                          > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                          > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                          > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                          > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                          > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                          > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                          > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                          > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                          > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                          > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                          > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                          > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                          > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                          > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                          > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                          > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                          > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                          > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                          > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                          > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                          > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                          > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                          > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                          > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                          > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                          > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                          > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                          > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                          > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                          > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                          > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                          > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                          > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                          > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                          > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                          > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                          > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                          > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                          > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                          > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                          > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                          > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                          > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                          > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                          > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                          > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                          > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                          > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                          > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                          > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                          > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                          > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                          > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                          > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                          > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                          > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                          > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                          > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                          > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                          > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                          > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                          > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                          > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                          > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                          > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                          > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                          > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                          > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                          > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                          > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                          > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                          > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                          > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                          > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                          > > .
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
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                          > >
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