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Re: Miscegenation?

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  • happypick2000
    ... Dear Chris and Friends, Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 12, 2007
      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
      >
      > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
      >
      > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
      > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
      > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
      > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
      > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
      > a revived form of clairvoyance.
      >
      > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
      > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
      > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
      > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
      > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
      > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
      > after their decent out from Atlantis.
      >
      > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
      > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
      > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
      > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
      > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
      > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
      > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
      > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
      > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
      > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
      > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
      > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
      > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
      > unclear.)
      >
      > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
      > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
      > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
      > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
      > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
      > correctly.
      >
      > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
      > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
      > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
      > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
      > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
      > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
      > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
      >
      > Thanks in advance,
      > Chris.
      >
      Dear Chris and Friends,

      Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
      short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
      supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an understandable
      answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
      1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual Folk
      Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
      varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk Souls,
      etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points would be,
      in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding of "Kar.
      Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical Movement".

      I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
      perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept, but
      most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
      through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper understanding
      of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own personal
      "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
      such, which is so very important in my opinion.

      My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
      originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
      Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
      whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
      description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
      inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in abeyance
      until certain points seem to have culminated into additional insights
      and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able to
      write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
      very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work. I
      include it below as it is in my copy.
      ======================================================================
      PREFACE
      [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in 1910.]
      In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
      1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the development
      of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of Anthroposophy
      which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
      Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was able to
      build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with the
      scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is the
      external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is however a
      further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of anthroposophy,
      ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework for a
      true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
      information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of anatomy and
      physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of man. If
      we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must study
      the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real insight
      into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
      spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual element,
      however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human souls
      working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The higher
      spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
      stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of Folk
      Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the reality of
      thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it is
      equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth to the
      forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to be
      paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces which
      determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the needle
      itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect of
      the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes of
      this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons for
      the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
      cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the anthroposophical
      view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
      totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
      higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and seeds the
      forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We then
      investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the peoples
      and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis. The
      conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their mutual
      relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without this
      basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either one
      must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual reality
      or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
      I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the early
      centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual beings. An
      Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use of
      this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today, there
      seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
      thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our Western
      civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or if
      an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could only be
      fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
      civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems to me
      that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
      assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
      names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than physical
      science objects to terms such as positive and negative electricity,
      magnetism, polorized light, etc.
      Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the painful
      trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then said
      throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February 1918}
      Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in the
      light of the present world situation these earlier investigations were
      a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
      will find the following passage: "...we have every reason, especially
      at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission of
      the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
      complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order today
      to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
      because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
      together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
      order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members of
      the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper, free
      and positive contributions if they have, above all, an understanding
      of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might call 'the
      self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when the
      fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
      Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which shows
      how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the supersensible
      reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
      life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of life.
      This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
      concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
      describe the nature and development of peoples. This
      mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in exploiting
      the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
      civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of mankind we
      need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is the
      first demand of our age.
      Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
      ======================================================================
      I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
      comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have found
      follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
      this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is incredibly
      vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and Friends.

      Blessings,
      Sheila
    • christopherraymond_bio
      Hi Sheila, it s nice to hear from you. I ve been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr.
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
        Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.

        I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
        post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may have
        been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
        regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
        views.

        Blessings,
        Chris.



        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
        > >
        > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
        > >
        > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
        > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
        order to
        > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
        this
        > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
        > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
        developing
        > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
        > >
        > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
        becomes
        > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
        advanced
        > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
        running
        > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
        Steiner
        > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due
        in
        > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too
        slow
        > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
        > >
        > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
        > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
        > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America
        who
        > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
        signifying
        > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
        > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
        that
        > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
        not
        > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
        > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
        > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
        > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
        > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
        pregnancy.
        > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
        > > unclear.)
        > >
        > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught
        we
        > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
        quotes, or
        > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any
        help
        > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
        question of
        > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
        > > correctly.
        > >
        > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
        > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
        > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from
        the
        > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such
        a
        > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
        clear I
        > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
        > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
        > >
        > > Thanks in advance,
        > > Chris.
        > >
        > Dear Chris and Friends,
        >
        > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
        > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
        > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an understandable
        > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
        > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual Folk
        > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
        > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
        Souls,
        > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points would
        be,
        > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
        of "Kar.
        > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
        Movement".
        >
        > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
        > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
        but
        > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
        > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper understanding
        > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
        personal
        > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
        > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
        >
        > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
        > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
        > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
        > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
        > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
        > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
        abeyance
        > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
        insights
        > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able to
        > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
        > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work. I
        > include it below as it is in my copy.
        >
        ======================================================================
        > PREFACE
        > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
        1910.]
        > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
        > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
        development
        > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
        Anthroposophy
        > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
        > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was able
        to
        > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with the
        > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is the
        > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
        however a
        > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
        anthroposophy,
        > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
        for a
        > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
        > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of anatomy
        and
        > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of man.
        If
        > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must study
        > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real insight
        > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
        > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
        element,
        > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human souls
        > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The higher
        > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
        > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
        Folk
        > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the reality
        of
        > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it is
        > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth to
        the
        > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to be
        > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces which
        > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
        needle
        > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect of
        > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes of
        > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons for
        > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
        > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
        anthroposophical
        > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
        > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
        > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and seeds
        the
        > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
        then
        > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
        peoples
        > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis. The
        > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
        mutual
        > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without this
        > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
        one
        > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
        reality
        > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
        > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the early
        > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual beings.
        An
        > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use of
        > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today, there
        > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
        > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
        Western
        > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or if
        > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could only
        be
        > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
        > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems to
        me
        > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
        > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
        > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
        physical
        > science objects to terms such as positive and negative electricity,
        > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
        > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
        painful
        > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
        said
        > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
        1918}
        > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in the
        > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
        were
        > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
        > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
        especially
        > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission of
        > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
        > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
        today
        > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
        > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
        > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
        > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members of
        > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper, free
        > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an understanding
        > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might call 'the
        > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
        the
        > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
        > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
        shows
        > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the supersensible
        > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
        > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of life.
        > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
        > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
        > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
        > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in exploiting
        > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
        > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of mankind
        we
        > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
        the
        > first demand of our age.
        > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
        >
        ======================================================================

        > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
        > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have found
        > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
        > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
        incredibly
        > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and Friends.
        >
        > Blessings,
        > Sheila
        >
      • christopherraymond_bio
        Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
          Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html

          "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
          colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
          evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
          civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
          people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
          environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
          new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
          certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came
          to their particular parts of the world."

          Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
          regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:

          "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
          these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that
          the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."


          Dr. Steiner continues....:

          "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
          considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
          upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
          useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.

          Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
          mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
          fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
          ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the lower
          apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is too
          far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
          with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
          mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
          actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
          clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
          with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
          entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
          blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
          influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace it
          back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
          conducted from this standpoint.

          We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
          connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
          case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
          physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in contact
          with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
          blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
          power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
          exogamy.

          Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too far
          removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
          original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
          destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
          Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
          similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
          the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
          strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
          blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
          consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
          the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
          been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
          intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
          That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in his
          ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
          principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital fluids
          and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
          the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
          etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
          system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
          the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore, would
          master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be borne
          in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For example,
          the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
          you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood the
          ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
          possess his blood."


          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
          The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
          the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:

          "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
          itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
          also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
          heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
          expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
          These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
          innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
          was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
          developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed their
          ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the outer
          world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
          scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the Atlantean
          initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other men
          who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
          of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
          could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed ego-
          feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
          became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
          were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
          ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from the
          outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
          surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
          human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use for
          the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
          great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
          of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
          strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
          manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the West
          and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the Red
          Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
          developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
          became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
          those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
          evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
          brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and on
          the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
          the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of egohood
          is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling of
          ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
          as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these two
          phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the West
          and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
          whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
          people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
          who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like plants:
          they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin and
          became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
          Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
          population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
          developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who had
          developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
          were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from the
          place we know of in Asia."

          The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
          developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
          advanced stages of Ego development."

          "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
          the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
          stages of development. These were also turned to account, of course.
          To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
          suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
          example, in the migration from West to East a people remained behind
          in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
          degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
          from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
          result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
          the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
          especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
          feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least in
          this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples who
          had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
          milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
          rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
          nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
          outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able to
          say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
          personality was from the beginning their essential feature."

          Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on something
          more than environment:

          "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
          situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
          which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave rise
          to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
          direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
          possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is very
          important that we realise the connection between the sun's influence
          on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
          matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see how
          much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these possible
          shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that particular
          part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
          were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
          till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
          people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised by
          peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
          acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours to
          be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
          have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
          the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
          world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls in
          every possible part of Asia."

          Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
          ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.

          "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and African
          peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
          combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
          manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups of
          people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming the
          root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
          the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
          feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the ego-
          feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
          North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times, you
          find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
          were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
          character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on the
          bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia with
          passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity expresses
          itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
          etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
          the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
          people"

          "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
          Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
          countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let us
          remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
          found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies but
          whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
          fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
          physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward. And
          we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just think
          how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
          times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
          who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
          one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
          other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves with
          the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
          to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with the
          one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
          say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
          individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
          two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
          arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and West.
          And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea of
          God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
          itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
          Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
          personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
          we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of a
          God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
          developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this particular
          belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still inward,
          still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
          still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a small
          degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
          personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
          also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner being.
          Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the greatest
          wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
          Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And because
          these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
          entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
          remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
          remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
          clairvoyance."


          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html

          "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
          civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
          era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it were,
          but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
          understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in a
          certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a higher
          ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
          learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's inhabitant's
          did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
          development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard to
          the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
          Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
          earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What would
          they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
          development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
          develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
          men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
          strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that is
          how they became red. Their development led them into decadence. Among
          the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
          the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call inner
          brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
          could find within themselves everything that had to be developed. At
          the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
          significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
          altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They did
          not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner. But
          those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
          they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
          the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
          holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
          future."




          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
          <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
          >
          > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
          > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
          have
          > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
          > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
          > views.
          >
          > Blessings,
          > Chris.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
          > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
          > > >
          > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
          > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
          > order to
          > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
          > this
          > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
          > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
          > developing
          > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
          > > >
          > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
          > becomes
          > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
          > advanced
          > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
          > running
          > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
          > Steiner
          > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
          due
          > in
          > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
          too
          > slow
          > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
          > > >
          > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
          > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
          > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
          America
          > who
          > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
          > signifying
          > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
          which
          > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
          > that
          > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
          > not
          > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught
          how
          > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
          > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
          > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
          > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
          > pregnancy.
          > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
          > > > unclear.)
          > > >
          > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
          taught
          > we
          > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
          > quotes, or
          > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
          any
          > help
          > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
          > question of
          > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
          > > > correctly.
          > > >
          > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
          > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
          > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
          from
          > the
          > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
          such
          > a
          > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
          > clear I
          > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
          > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks in advance,
          > > > Chris.
          > > >
          > > Dear Chris and Friends,
          > >
          > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
          > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
          > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
          understandable
          > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
          > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
          Folk
          > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
          > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
          > Souls,
          > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
          would
          > be,
          > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
          > of "Kar.
          > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
          > Movement".
          > >
          > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
          > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
          > but
          > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
          > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
          understanding
          > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
          > personal
          > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
          > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
          > >
          > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
          > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
          > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
          > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
          > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
          > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
          > abeyance
          > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
          > insights
          > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able
          to
          > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
          > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work.
          I
          > > include it below as it is in my copy.
          > >
          >
          ======================================================================
          > > PREFACE
          > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
          > 1910.]
          > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
          > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
          > development
          > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
          > Anthroposophy
          > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
          > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
          able
          > to
          > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with
          the
          > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is
          the
          > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
          > however a
          > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
          > anthroposophy,
          > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
          > for a
          > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
          > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
          anatomy
          > and
          > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
          man.
          > If
          > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
          study
          > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
          insight
          > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
          > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
          > element,
          > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
          souls
          > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
          higher
          > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
          > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
          > Folk
          > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
          reality
          > of
          > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it
          is
          > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
          to
          > the
          > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to
          be
          > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
          which
          > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
          > needle
          > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect
          of
          > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes
          of
          > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons
          for
          > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
          > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
          > anthroposophical
          > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
          > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
          > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
          seeds
          > the
          > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
          > then
          > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
          > peoples
          > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
          The
          > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
          > mutual
          > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
          this
          > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
          > one
          > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
          > reality
          > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
          > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
          early
          > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
          beings.
          > An
          > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use
          of
          > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
          there
          > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
          > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
          > Western
          > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or
          if
          > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
          only
          > be
          > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
          > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems
          to
          > me
          > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
          > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
          > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
          > physical
          > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
          electricity,
          > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
          > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
          > painful
          > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
          > said
          > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
          > 1918}
          > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in
          the
          > > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
          > were
          > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
          > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
          > especially
          > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission
          of
          > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
          > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
          > today
          > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
          > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
          > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
          > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members
          of
          > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
          free
          > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
          understanding
          > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
          call 'the
          > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
          > the
          > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
          > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
          > shows
          > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
          supersensible
          > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
          > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
          life.
          > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
          > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
          > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
          > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
          exploiting
          > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
          > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
          mankind
          > we
          > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
          > the
          > > first demand of our age.
          > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
          > >
          >
          ======================================================================
          >
          > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
          > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
          found
          > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
          > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
          > incredibly
          > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
          Friends.
          > >
          > > Blessings,
          > > Sheila
          > >
          >
        • christopherraymond_bio
          I have concluded thus: On the one hand, all humans are limited to what the blood can handle in terms of exogamy or miscegenation. It is true that some older
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
            I have concluded thus:

            On the one hand, all humans are limited to what the blood can handle
            in terms of exogamy or miscegenation. It is true that some older
            races are less equipped to move past what is based upon the
            surroundings and those imprints within their own blood. Yet, we are
            also not bound to merely the bodily processes alone. However the
            fact remains still how racial differences do play a role in those who
            have not acquired the necessary faculties of becoming something more
            spiritual. As Dr. Steiner also mentioned, the races were not
            intended to co-exist but be consecutive. Thus what is more physical
            or dominant will take over in the long run through miscegenation and
            exogamy unless we can have a Spiritual Science as in Anthroposophy.

            Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics
            mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
            actual readings:

            http://sociologyesoscience.com/esoterica/cbooks1.html

            "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
            years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
            people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
            without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
            reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)

            Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
            http://www.ciis.edu/cayce/Smith.html

            "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)

            It would be easy for me or anyone to dismiss these readings as being
            spoken through a demonic channel, or a racist view that had much to
            do with Cayce's own personal beliefs. There are clues that led me to
            believe that he was referring to the vibrations of the Souls that
            incarnated into these Negro bodies; or more often than not it might
            have been the case.

            Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19101228p01.html and before we
            discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
            directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
            Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)

            "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
            and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
            the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
            being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
            discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
            astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
            to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
            Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
            the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
            philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
            older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
            opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
            in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
            that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
            here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
            coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
            negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
            characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
            expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
            calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
            a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
            preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
            the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
            Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
            value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
            nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
            essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
            soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
            whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
            only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
            culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
            opening up a wide vista into the future."

            We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
            transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
            the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
            skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
            a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
            the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
            lacking in genes.

            Dr. Steiner mentioned:

            "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
            must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
            were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
            perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
            form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."

            In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
            processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
            Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
            skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
            recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
            This is already known to biology today.

            Blessings,
            Chris



            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
            <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
            >
            > Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html
            >
            > "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
            > colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
            > evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
            > civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
            > people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood
            this
            > environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
            > new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
            > certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists
            came
            > to their particular parts of the world."
            >
            > Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
            > regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:
            >
            > "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
            > these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain
            that
            > the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."
            >
            >
            > Dr. Steiner continues....:
            >
            > "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
            > considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
            > upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
            > useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.
            >
            > Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
            > mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
            > fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
            > ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the
            lower
            > apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is
            too
            > far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
            > with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
            > mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
            > actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
            > clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
            > with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
            > entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
            > blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
            > influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace
            it
            > back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
            > conducted from this standpoint.
            >
            > We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
            > connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
            > case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
            > physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in
            contact
            > with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
            > blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
            > power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
            > exogamy.
            >
            > Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too
            far
            > removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
            > original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
            > destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
            > Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
            > similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
            > the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
            > strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
            > blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
            > consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
            > the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
            > been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
            > intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
            > That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in
            his
            > ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
            > principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital
            fluids
            > and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
            > the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
            > etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
            > system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
            > the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore,
            would
            > master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be
            borne
            > in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For
            example,
            > the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
            > you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood
            the
            > ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
            > possess his blood."
            >
            >
            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
            > The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
            > the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:
            >
            > "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
            > itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
            > also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
            > heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
            > expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
            > These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
            > innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
            > was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
            > developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed
            their
            > ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the
            outer
            > world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
            > scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the
            Atlantean
            > initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other
            men
            > who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
            > of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
            > could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed
            ego-
            > feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
            > became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
            > were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
            > ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from
            the
            > outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
            > surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
            > human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use
            for
            > the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
            > great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
            > of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
            > strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
            > manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the
            West
            > and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the
            Red
            > Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
            > developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
            > became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
            > those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
            > evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
            > brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and
            on
            > the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
            > the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of
            egohood
            > is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling
            of
            > ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
            > as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these
            two
            > phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the
            West
            > and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
            > whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
            > people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
            > who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like
            plants:
            > they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin
            and
            > became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
            > Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
            > population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
            > developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who
            had
            > developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
            > were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from
            the
            > place we know of in Asia."
            >
            > The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
            > developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
            > advanced stages of Ego development."
            >
            > "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
            > the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
            > stages of development. These were also turned to account, of
            course.
            > To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
            > suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
            > example, in the migration from West to East a people remained
            behind
            > in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
            > degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
            > from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
            > result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
            > the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
            > especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
            > feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least
            in
            > this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples
            who
            > had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
            > milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
            > rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
            > nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
            > outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able
            to
            > say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
            > personality was from the beginning their essential feature."
            >
            > Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on
            something
            > more than environment:
            >
            > "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
            > situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
            > which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave
            rise
            > to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
            > direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
            > possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is
            very
            > important that we realise the connection between the sun's
            influence
            > on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
            > matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see
            how
            > much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these
            possible
            > shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that
            particular
            > part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
            > were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
            > till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
            > people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised
            by
            > peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
            > acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours
            to
            > be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
            > have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
            > the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
            > world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls
            in
            > every possible part of Asia."
            >
            > Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
            > ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.
            >
            > "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and
            African
            > peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
            > combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
            > manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups
            of
            > people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming
            the
            > root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
            > the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
            > feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the
            ego-
            > feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
            > North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times,
            you
            > find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
            > were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
            > character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on
            the
            > bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia
            with
            > passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity
            expresses
            > itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
            > etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
            > the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
            > people"
            >
            > "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
            > Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
            > countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let
            us
            > remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
            > found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies
            but
            > whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
            > fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
            > physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward.
            And
            > we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just
            think
            > how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
            > times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
            > who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
            > one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
            > other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves
            with
            > the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
            > to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with
            the
            > one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
            > say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
            > individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
            > two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
            > arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and
            West.
            > And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea
            of
            > God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
            > itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
            > Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
            > personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
            > we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of
            a
            > God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
            > developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this
            particular
            > belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still
            inward,
            > still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
            > still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a
            small
            > degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
            > personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
            > also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner
            being.
            > Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the
            greatest
            > wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
            > Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And
            because
            > these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
            > entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
            > remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
            > remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
            > clairvoyance."
            >
            >
            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
            >
            > "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
            > civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
            > era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it
            were,
            > but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
            > understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in
            a
            > certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a
            higher
            > ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
            > learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's
            inhabitant's
            > did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
            > development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard
            to
            > the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
            > Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
            > earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What
            would
            > they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
            > development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
            > develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
            > men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
            > strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that
            is
            > how they became red. Their development led them into decadence.
            Among
            > the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
            > the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call
            inner
            > brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
            > could find within themselves everything that had to be developed.
            At
            > the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
            > significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
            > altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They
            did
            > not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner.
            But
            > those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
            > they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
            > the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
            > holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
            > future."
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
            > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
            > >
            > > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I
            will
            > > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
            > have
            > > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
            > > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp
            his
            > > views.
            > >
            > > Blessings,
            > > Chris.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@>
            wrote:
            > > >
            > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
            > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
            races:
            > > > >
            > > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
            > > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
            > > order to
            > > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we
            interpret
            > > this
            > > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
            be
            > > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
            > > developing
            > > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
            > > > >
            > > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races
            it
            > > becomes
            > > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
            > > advanced
            > > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
            > > running
            > > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example,
            Dr.
            > > Steiner
            > > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
            > due
            > > in
            > > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
            > too
            > > slow
            > > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
            > > > >
            > > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
            > > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin.
            For
            > > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
            > America
            > > who
            > > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
            > > signifying
            > > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
            > which
            > > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
            Likewise,
            > > that
            > > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and
            had
            > > not
            > > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
            taught
            > how
            > > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
            > > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
            these
            > > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
            to
            > > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
            > > pregnancy.
            > > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
            am
            > > > > unclear.)
            > > > >
            > > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
            > taught
            > > we
            > > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
            > > quotes, or
            > > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
            > any
            > > help
            > > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
            > > question of
            > > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be
            understood
            > > > > correctly.
            > > > >
            > > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
            > > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
            > > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
            > from
            > > the
            > > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
            > such
            > > a
            > > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
            > > clear I
            > > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
            > > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
            > > > >
            > > > > Thanks in advance,
            > > > > Chris.
            > > > >
            > > > Dear Chris and Friends,
            > > >
            > > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see
            a
            > > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough
            to
            > > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
            > understandable
            > > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to
            Steiner's
            > > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
            > Folk
            > > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding
            the
            > > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
            > > Souls,
            > > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
            > would
            > > be,
            > > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
            > > of "Kar.
            > > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
            > > Movement".
            > > >
            > > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls"
            and
            > > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that
            concept,
            > > but
            > > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's
            advancement
            > > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
            > understanding
            > > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
            > > personal
            > > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point
            as
            > > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
            > > >
            > > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
            > > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
            > > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
            > > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
            > > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
            > > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
            > > abeyance
            > > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
            > > insights
            > > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't
            able
            > to
            > > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface
            is
            > > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific
            work.
            > I
            > > > include it below as it is in my copy.
            > > >
            > >
            >
            ======================================================================
            > > > PREFACE
            > > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
            > > 1910.]
            > > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in
            June
            > > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
            > > development
            > > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
            > > Anthroposophy
            > > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
            > > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
            > able
            > > to
            > > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar
            with
            > the
            > > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That
            is
            > the
            > > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
            > > however a
            > > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
            > > anthroposophy,
            > > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate
            framework
            > > for a
            > > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
            > > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
            > anatomy
            > > and
            > > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
            > man.
            > > If
            > > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
            > study
            > > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
            > insight
            > > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
            > > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
            > > element,
            > > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
            > souls
            > > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
            > higher
            > > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a
            total
            > > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak
            of
            > > Folk
            > > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
            > reality
            > > of
            > > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and
            it
            > is
            > > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
            > to
            > > the
            > > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases
            to
            > be
            > > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
            > which
            > > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
            > > needle
            > > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the
            effect
            > of
            > > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the
            causes
            > of
            > > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the
            reasons
            > for
            > > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
            > > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
            > > anthroposophical
            > > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
            > > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which
            sees a
            > > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
            > seeds
            > > the
            > > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality.
            We
            > > then
            > > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
            > > peoples
            > > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
            > The
            > > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
            > > mutual
            > > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
            > this
            > > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach.
            Either
            > > one
            > > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
            > > reality
            > > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
            > > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
            > early
            > > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
            > beings.
            > > An
            > > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the
            use
            > of
            > > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
            > there
            > > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
            > > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
            > > Western
            > > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen,
            or
            > if
            > > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
            > only
            > > be
            > > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
            > > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It
            seems
            > to
            > > me
            > > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual
            relationships,
            > > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object
            to
            > > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
            > > physical
            > > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
            > electricity,
            > > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
            > > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
            > > painful
            > > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I
            then
            > > said
            > > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now.
            {February
            > > 1918}
            > > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that
            in
            > the
            > > > light of the present world situation these earlier
            investigations
            > > were
            > > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture
            you
            > > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
            > > especially
            > > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the
            mission
            > of
            > > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to
            maintain
            > > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in
            order
            > > today
            > > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly
            important
            > > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
            > > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case
            in
            > > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the
            members
            > of
            > > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
            > free
            > > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
            > understanding
            > > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
            > call 'the
            > > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come
            when
            > > the
            > > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
            > > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls"
            which
            > > shows
            > > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
            > supersensible
            > > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view
            of
            > > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
            > life.
            > > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses
            such
            > > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order
            to
            > > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
            > > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
            > exploiting
            > > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit
            of
            > > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
            > mankind
            > > we
            > > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science
            is
            > > the
            > > > first demand of our age.
            > > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf
            Steiner
            > > >
            > >
            >
            ======================================================================
            > >
            > > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
            > > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
            > found
            > > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found
            in
            > > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
            > > incredibly
            > > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
            > Friends.
            > > >
            > > > Blessings,
            > > > Sheila
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • happypick2000
            Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner s words dealing with the Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be thoroughly researched.
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
              Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner's words dealing with the
              Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be
              thoroughly researched.
              Blessings,
              Sheila

              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html
              >
              > "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
              > colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
              > evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
              > civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
              > people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
              > environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
              > new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
              > certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came
              > to their particular parts of the world."
              >
              > Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
              > regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:
              >
              > "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
              > these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that
              > the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."
              >
              >
              > Dr. Steiner continues....:
              >
              > "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
              > considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
              > upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
              > useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.
              >
              > Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
              > mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
              > fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
              > ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the lower
              > apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is too
              > far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
              > with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
              > mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
              > actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
              > clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
              > with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
              > entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
              > blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
              > influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace it
              > back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
              > conducted from this standpoint.
              >
              > We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
              > connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
              > case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
              > physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in contact
              > with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
              > blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
              > power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
              > exogamy.
              >
              > Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too far
              > removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
              > original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
              > destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
              > Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
              > similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
              > the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
              > strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
              > blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
              > consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
              > the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
              > been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
              > intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
              > That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in his
              > ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
              > principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital fluids
              > and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
              > the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
              > etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
              > system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
              > the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore, would
              > master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be borne
              > in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For example,
              > the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
              > you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood the
              > ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
              > possess his blood."
              >
              >
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
              > The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
              > the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:
              >
              > "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
              > itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
              > also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
              > heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
              > expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
              > These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
              > innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
              > was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
              > developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed their
              > ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the outer
              > world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
              > scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the Atlantean
              > initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other men
              > who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
              > of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
              > could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed ego-
              > feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
              > became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
              > were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
              > ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from the
              > outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
              > surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
              > human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use for
              > the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
              > great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
              > of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
              > strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
              > manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the West
              > and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the Red
              > Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
              > developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
              > became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
              > those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
              > evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
              > brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and on
              > the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
              > the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of egohood
              > is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling of
              > ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
              > as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these two
              > phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the West
              > and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
              > whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
              > people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
              > who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like plants:
              > they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin and
              > became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
              > Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
              > population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
              > developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who had
              > developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
              > were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from the
              > place we know of in Asia."
              >
              > The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
              > developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
              > advanced stages of Ego development."
              >
              > "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
              > the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
              > stages of development. These were also turned to account, of course.
              > To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
              > suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
              > example, in the migration from West to East a people remained behind
              > in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
              > degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
              > from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
              > result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
              > the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
              > especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
              > feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least in
              > this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples who
              > had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
              > milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
              > rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
              > nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
              > outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able to
              > say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
              > personality was from the beginning their essential feature."
              >
              > Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on something
              > more than environment:
              >
              > "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
              > situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
              > which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave rise
              > to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
              > direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
              > possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is very
              > important that we realise the connection between the sun's influence
              > on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
              > matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see how
              > much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these possible
              > shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that particular
              > part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
              > were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
              > till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
              > people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised by
              > peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
              > acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours to
              > be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
              > have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
              > the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
              > world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls in
              > every possible part of Asia."
              >
              > Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
              > ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.
              >
              > "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and African
              > peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
              > combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
              > manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups of
              > people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming the
              > root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
              > the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
              > feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the ego-
              > feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
              > North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times, you
              > find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
              > were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
              > character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on the
              > bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia with
              > passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity expresses
              > itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
              > etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
              > the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
              > people"
              >
              > "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
              > Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
              > countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let us
              > remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
              > found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies but
              > whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
              > fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
              > physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward. And
              > we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just think
              > how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
              > times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
              > who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
              > one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
              > other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves with
              > the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
              > to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with the
              > one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
              > say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
              > individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
              > two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
              > arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and West.
              > And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea of
              > God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
              > itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
              > Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
              > personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
              > we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of a
              > God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
              > developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this particular
              > belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still inward,
              > still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
              > still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a small
              > degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
              > personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
              > also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner being.
              > Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the greatest
              > wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
              > Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And because
              > these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
              > entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
              > remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
              > remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
              > clairvoyance."
              >
              >
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
              >
              > "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
              > civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
              > era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it were,
              > but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
              > understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in a
              > certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a higher
              > ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
              > learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's inhabitant's
              > did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
              > development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard to
              > the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
              > Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
              > earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What would
              > they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
              > development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
              > develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
              > men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
              > strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that is
              > how they became red. Their development led them into decadence. Among
              > the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
              > the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call inner
              > brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
              > could find within themselves everything that had to be developed. At
              > the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
              > significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
              > altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They did
              > not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner. But
              > those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
              > they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
              > the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
              > holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
              > future."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
              > >
              > > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
              > > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
              > have
              > > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
              > > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
              > > views.
              > >
              > > Blessings,
              > > Chris.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
              > > > >
              > > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
              > > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
              > > order to
              > > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
              > > this
              > > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
              > > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
              > > developing
              > > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
              > > > >
              > > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
              > > becomes
              > > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
              > > advanced
              > > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
              > > running
              > > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
              > > Steiner
              > > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
              > due
              > > in
              > > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
              > too
              > > slow
              > > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
              > > > >
              > > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
              > > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
              > > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
              > America
              > > who
              > > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
              > > signifying
              > > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
              > which
              > > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
              > > that
              > > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
              > > not
              > > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught
              > how
              > > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
              > > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
              > > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
              > > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
              > > pregnancy.
              > > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
              > > > > unclear.)
              > > > >
              > > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
              > taught
              > > we
              > > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
              > > quotes, or
              > > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
              > any
              > > help
              > > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
              > > question of
              > > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
              > > > > correctly.
              > > > >
              > > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
              > > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
              > > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
              > from
              > > the
              > > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
              > such
              > > a
              > > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
              > > clear I
              > > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
              > > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks in advance,
              > > > > Chris.
              > > > >
              > > > Dear Chris and Friends,
              > > >
              > > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
              > > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
              > > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
              > understandable
              > > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
              > > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
              > Folk
              > > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
              > > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
              > > Souls,
              > > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
              > would
              > > be,
              > > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
              > > of "Kar.
              > > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
              > > Movement".
              > > >
              > > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
              > > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
              > > but
              > > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
              > > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
              > understanding
              > > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
              > > personal
              > > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
              > > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
              > > >
              > > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
              > > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
              > > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
              > > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
              > > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
              > > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
              > > abeyance
              > > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
              > > insights
              > > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able
              > to
              > > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
              > > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work.
              > I
              > > > include it below as it is in my copy.
              > > >
              > >
              > ======================================================================
              > > > PREFACE
              > > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
              > > 1910.]
              > > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
              > > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
              > > development
              > > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
              > > Anthroposophy
              > > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
              > > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
              > able
              > > to
              > > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with
              > the
              > > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is
              > the
              > > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
              > > however a
              > > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
              > > anthroposophy,
              > > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
              > > for a
              > > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
              > > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
              > anatomy
              > > and
              > > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
              > man.
              > > If
              > > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
              > study
              > > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
              > insight
              > > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
              > > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
              > > element,
              > > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
              > souls
              > > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
              > higher
              > > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
              > > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
              > > Folk
              > > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
              > reality
              > > of
              > > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it
              > is
              > > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
              > to
              > > the
              > > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to
              > be
              > > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
              > which
              > > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
              > > needle
              > > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect
              > of
              > > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes
              > of
              > > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons
              > for
              > > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
              > > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
              > > anthroposophical
              > > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
              > > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
              > > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
              > seeds
              > > the
              > > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
              > > then
              > > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
              > > peoples
              > > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
              > The
              > > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
              > > mutual
              > > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
              > this
              > > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
              > > one
              > > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
              > > reality
              > > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
              > > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
              > early
              > > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
              > beings.
              > > An
              > > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use
              > of
              > > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
              > there
              > > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
              > > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
              > > Western
              > > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or
              > if
              > > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
              > only
              > > be
              > > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
              > > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems
              > to
              > > me
              > > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
              > > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
              > > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
              > > physical
              > > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
              > electricity,
              > > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
              > > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
              > > painful
              > > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
              > > said
              > > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
              > > 1918}
              > > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in
              > the
              > > > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
              > > were
              > > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
              > > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
              > > especially
              > > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission
              > of
              > > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
              > > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
              > > today
              > > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
              > > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
              > > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
              > > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members
              > of
              > > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
              > free
              > > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
              > understanding
              > > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
              > call 'the
              > > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
              > > the
              > > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
              > > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
              > > shows
              > > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
              > supersensible
              > > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
              > > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
              > life.
              > > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
              > > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
              > > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
              > > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
              > exploiting
              > > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
              > > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
              > mankind
              > > we
              > > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
              > > the
              > > > first demand of our age.
              > > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
              > > >
              > >
              > ======================================================================
              > >
              > > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
              > > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
              > found
              > > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
              > > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
              > > incredibly
              > > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
              > Friends.
              > > >
              > > > Blessings,
              > > > Sheila
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Durward Starman
              ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it s important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.
                 
                   Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that races as we have known them will become of less and less importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.
                 
                   So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the need for endogamy is long over.
                 
                  For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                 
                   As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're Caucasian, etc.
                 
                -Starman




                To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                From: christopherraymond_bio@...
                Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000
                Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?

                The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:

                There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
                miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
                advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
                today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
                engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
                a revived form of clairvoyance.

                However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
                clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
                Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
                around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
                wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
                part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
                after their decent out from Atlantis.

                He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
                ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
                example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
                were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
                the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
                prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
                the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
                yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
                the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
                `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
                races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
                pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
                unclear.)

                Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
                should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
                sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
                if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
                whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
                correctly.

                What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
                internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
                translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
                books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
                gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
                think, without all the going back and forth between views,
                translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.

                Thanks in advance,
                Chris.




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              • Durward Starman
                ... *******I ve never heard of that quote, and I can t find it at that link. Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007



                  >Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
                  actual readings:
                  http://sociologyeso science.com/ esoterica/ cbooks1.html
                  "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
                  years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
                  people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
                  without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
                  reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)
                   
                  *******This was a reading given early in Cayce's career when his father, a violent racist, conducted the readings. Cayce's stenographer, Gladys Davis Turner, said she felt that it was his influence on the unconscious Cayce that resulted in this insult --- which was, by the way, contradicted by many, many statements throughout the rest of Cayce's career after his father was removed from his position as conductor for secretly getting information on horse races for friends. This is why it's not just that anthroposophy is 'better' in some vague way that trance psychics, but specifically they are open to all sorts of suggestion and influence. The readings praising Hitler were done in a house full of Germans, for instance.
                   


                  >Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
                  http://www.ciis. edu/cayce/ Smith.html

                  "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)
                   
                  *******I've never heard of that quote, and I can't find it at that link.
                   
                   


                  Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
                  http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ Dates/19101228p0 1.html and before we
                  discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
                  directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
                  Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)
                  "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
                  and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
                  the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
                  being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
                  discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
                  astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
                  to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
                  Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
                  the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
                  philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
                  older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
                  opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
                  in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
                  that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
                  here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
                  coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
                  negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
                  characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
                  expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
                  calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
                  a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
                  preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
                  the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
                  Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
                  value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
                  nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
                  essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
                  soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
                  whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
                  only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
                  culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
                  opening up a wide vista into the future."
                   
                   
                  *******If you study about 'young' and 'old' souls, you'll find that Dr. Steiner was not implying the one is good and the other bad. He says the young souls bring a new, fresh impulse into the world. In his Mystery Plays, he portrays them as Dr. Strader and Professor Capesius, and each has his area of weakness.
                     Look at how the Negro brought a new vitality into European music, for instance. It certainly can't be said to be all good (God, I'm sick of hearing rap 'music'!), but no one would say it was all bad, either.
                   


                  >We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
                  transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
                  the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
                  skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
                  a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
                  the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
                  lacking in genes.
                  Dr. Steiner mentioned:
                  "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
                  must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
                  were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
                  perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
                  form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."
                  In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
                  processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
                  Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
                  skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
                  recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
                  This is already known to biology today.
                  Blessings,
                  Chris
                   
                  *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends race, not race anymore.
                   
                  -Starman


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                • christopherraymond_bio
                  Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro novels giving birth
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                    Duward,
                    You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
                    Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
                    novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
                    feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                    it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                    to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                    norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                    intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                    clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                    resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                    through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
                    miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
                    preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
                    skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
                    danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
                    blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
                    intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
                    miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
                    becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
                    turning toward spiritual science?

                    The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
                    bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
                    areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
                    could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
                    living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
                    experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                    materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                    uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                    bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
                    Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
                    so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                    rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                    occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                    here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                    should experience what is required.

                    If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
                    cultural development as much either, what do you think?





                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
                    many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
                    the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
                    in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
                    Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
                    century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
                    people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
                    basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
                    worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
                    also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
                    subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
                    animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
                    a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
                    act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
                    of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
                    the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
                    with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
                    that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
                    grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
                    Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
                    group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
                    influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
                    many types of blood, for instance.
                    >
                    > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
                    studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
                    longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
                    blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
                    It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
                    that races as we have known them will become of less and less
                    importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
                    distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
                    and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
                    less.
                    >
                    > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
                    was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                    actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                    clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                    need for endogamy is long over.
                    >
                    > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
                    is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
                    learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
                    inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
                    completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
                    anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
                    enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
                    is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                    >
                    > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
                    and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
                    no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
                    them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
                    Caucasian, etc.
                    >
                    > -Starman
                    >
                    >
                    > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
                    20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
                    >
                    >
                    > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
                    races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
                    howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
                    toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
                    thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
                    beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
                    developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
                    teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
                    are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
                    with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
                    trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
                    Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
                    people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
                    decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
                    of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
                    the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
                    America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
                    signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                    limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                    Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                    and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                    taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                    be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                    theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                    topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                    (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                    amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                    taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                    quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                    appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                    answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                    if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                    books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                    in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                    from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                    such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                    clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                    views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                    Thanks in advance,Chris.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
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                  • christopherraymond_bio
                    *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                      "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
                      replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
                      science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
                      think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
                      race, not race anymore. "

                      I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
                      be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
                      we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
                      allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
                      path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
                      fulfill that requirement in that body?
                    • Durward Starman
                      *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                        *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                         
                           Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                         
                         "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                        clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                        resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                        through spiritual science."
                         
                            The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                         
                           I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                         
                           Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
                         
                           I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
                         
                           Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
                         
                           But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
                         
                           These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                         
                           Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
                         
                           I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                         
                           But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
                         
                           Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                         
                           But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

                        Starman
                        www.DrStarman.com



                        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                        From: christopherraymond_bio@...
                        Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
                        Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

                        Duward,
                        You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
                        Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
                        novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
                        feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                        it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                        to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                        norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                        intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                        clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                        resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                        through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
                        miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
                        preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
                        skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
                        danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
                        blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
                        intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
                        miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
                        becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
                        turning toward spiritual science?

                        The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
                        bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
                        areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
                        could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
                        living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
                        experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                        materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                        uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                        bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
                        Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
                        so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                        rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                        occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                        here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                        should experience what is required.

                        If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
                        cultural development as much either, what do you think?

                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
                        many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
                        the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
                        in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
                        Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
                        century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
                        people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
                        basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
                        worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
                        also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
                        subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
                        animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
                        a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
                        act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
                        of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
                        the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
                        with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
                        that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
                        grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
                        Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
                        group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
                        influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
                        many types of blood, for instance.
                        >
                        > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
                        studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
                        longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
                        blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
                        It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
                        that races as we have known them will become of less and less
                        importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
                        distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
                        and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
                        less.
                        >
                        > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
                        was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                        actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                        clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                        need for endogamy is long over.
                        >
                        > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
                        is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
                        learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
                        inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
                        completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
                        anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
                        enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
                        is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                        >
                        > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
                        and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
                        no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
                        them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
                        Caucasian, etc.
                        >
                        > -Starman
                        >
                        >
                        > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
                        20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
                        >
                        >
                        > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
                        races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
                        howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
                        toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
                        thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
                        beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
                        developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
                        teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
                        are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
                        with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
                        trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
                        Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
                        people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
                        decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
                        of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
                        the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
                        America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
                        signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                        limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                        Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                        and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                        taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                        be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                        theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                        topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                        (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                        amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                        taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                        quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                        appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                        answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                        if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
                        books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                        in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                        from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                        such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                        clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                        views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                        Thanks in advance,Chris.
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        .



                        Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
                      • christopherraymond_bio
                        Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                          Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                          did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                          mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                          Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                          discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                          have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                          him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                          any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                          through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                          it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                          sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

                          "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                          you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                          you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                          people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                          miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                          of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                          marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                          like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                          to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

                          Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                          several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                          statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                          School in Stuttgart":

                          "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                          more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                          exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                          not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                          human race...They are very different from human beings where
                          spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                          sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                          there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                          would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                          are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                          there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                          enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                          particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                          human form.

                          "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                          already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                          frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                          professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                          death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                          "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                          36-37)

                          After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                          further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                          agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                          past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                          have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                          I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                          just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                          absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                          me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                          poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                          matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                          teaching that I find discouraging.

                          Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                          cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                          has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                          happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                          daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                          hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                          miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                          voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                          bigot.

                          To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                          What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                          reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                          racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                          should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                          but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                          profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                          companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                          certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                          is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                          this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                          regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

                          > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                          disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                          future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                          associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                          exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                          actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

                          Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                          experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

                          This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

                          "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                          [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                          dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                          they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                          science."

                          However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                          blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                          no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                          of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                          to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                          it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                          and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                          honest question.

                          Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                          of WWI":

                          "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                          spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                          white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                          within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                          the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                          that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                          by the four other cultural epochs".

                          "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                          impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                          the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                          clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                          spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                          in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                          the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                          demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                          skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                          do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

                          Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                          acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                          introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                          again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                          into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                          seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                          most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                          opinion.

                          "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                          expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                          little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                          to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                          race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                          is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                          culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                          sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                          I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                          earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                          cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                          to culturally, indeed. "

                          First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                          In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                          insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                          from "Health and Illness in 1922:

                          "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                          give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                          to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                          blood children will be born in Europe"

                          Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                          investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                          washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                          racist.

                          "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                          bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                          tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                          to me. Definitions, please."

                          "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                          The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                          not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                          differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                          different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                          But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                          only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                          Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                          Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                          development."

                          Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

                          "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                          millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                          come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                          cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                          surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                          many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                          brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                          that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                          the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                          because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                          could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                          necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

                          Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                          the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                          http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

                          "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                          until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                          suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                          already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                          reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                          physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                          incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                          genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                          observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                          among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                          already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                          uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                          reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                          Mill put it (7).

                          "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                          positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                          experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                          music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                          blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                          even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                          passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                          Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                          CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                          allowed to be so confused. "

                          Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                          might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                          blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                          another.












                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                          you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                          you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                          people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                          miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                          of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                          marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                          like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                          to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                          >
                          > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                          physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                          is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                          reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                          >
                          > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                          through spiritual science."
                          >
                          > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                          become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                          then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                          Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                          in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                          clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                          endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                          same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                          into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                          (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                          whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                          does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                          Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                          worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                          white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                          yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                          focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                          interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                          1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                          has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                          >
                          > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                          disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                          future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                          associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                          exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                          actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                          >
                          > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                          expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                          little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                          to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                          race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                          is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                          culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                          sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                          I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                          earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                          cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                          to culturally, indeed.
                          >
                          > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                          bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                          tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                          to me. Definitions, please.
                          >
                          > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                          The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                          not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                          differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                          different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                          But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                          only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                          Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                          Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                          development.
                          >
                          > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                          individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                          astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                          incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                          formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                          that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                          approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                          soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                          Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                          very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                          black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                          Malcolm X.
                          >
                          > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                          being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                          third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                          whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                          >
                          > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                          ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                          souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                          in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                          encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                          culture just as much as old ones.
                          >
                          > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                          nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                          spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                          >
                          > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                          positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                          experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                          music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                          blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                          even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                          passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                          Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                          CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                          allowed to be so confused.
                          >
                          > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                          science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                          is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                          here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                          because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                          year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                          Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                          problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                          manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                          so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                          dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                          countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                          souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                          >
                          > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                          born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                          here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                          civilization.
                          > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                          >
                          >
                          > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                          01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                          >
                          >
                          > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                          why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                          Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                          not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                          it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                          to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                          norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                          intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                          through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                          is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                          contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                          hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                          the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                          miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                          spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                          encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                          materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                          spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                          Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                          incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                          elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                          suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                          those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                          materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                          uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                          bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                          came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                          should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                          rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                          occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                          here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                          should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                          miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                          either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                          Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                          one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                          approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                          described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                          in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                          lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                          remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                          superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                          Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                          made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                          racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                          way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                          not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                          the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                          or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                          strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                          accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                          into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                          of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                          touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                          the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                          one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                          a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                          Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                          ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                          now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                          foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                          become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                          races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                          as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                          future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                          more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                          > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                          something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                          actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                          clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                          need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                          to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                          science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                          over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                          seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                          tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                          soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                          from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                          not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                          blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                          Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                          incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                          when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                          christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                          [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                          mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                          Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                          clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                          how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                          implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                          ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                          when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                          how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                          or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                          in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                          about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                          the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                          their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                          color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                          past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                          Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                          in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                          limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                          Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                          and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                          taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                          be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                          theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                          topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                          (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                          amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                          taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                          quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                          appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                          answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                          if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                          books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                          in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                          from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                          such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                          clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                          views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                          Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                          > .
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________
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                        • Durward Starman
                          ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007


                            >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                            did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
                             
                            *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
                             
                             
                             
                            >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                             
                            *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



                            >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                            cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                             
                             
                            ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



                             Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                            "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                            give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                            to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                            blood children will be born in Europe"
                            Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                            investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                            washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                            racist.

                            ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                                I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


                            >  Each spirit is an
                            individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                            astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                            incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                            formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                            that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                            approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                            soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                            Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                            very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
                            black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                            viz., Malcolm X.
                            > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                            being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                            third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                            whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                            > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                            nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                            spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
                             
                            Starman
                            www.DrStarma n.com

                            .



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                          • christopherraymond_bio
                            Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                              Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
                              hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
                              However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
                              quoted:

                              "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
                              become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
                              it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

                              Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
                              here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
                              races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
                              to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
                              he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
                              races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
                              if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

                              When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
                              having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
                              were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
                              early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
                              other statements about the Mongols.

                              I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
                              something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
                              races', I think.
                              Chris.



                              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
                              question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
                              >
                              > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
                              post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
                              even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
                              another.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                              >
                              > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
                              > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                              cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                              >
                              >
                              > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
                              without having to have black fathers.
                              > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
                              convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
                              them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
                              Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
                              children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
                              say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
                              and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
                              angle in claiming he was a racist.
                              > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
                              shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
                              spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
                              stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
                              with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
                              kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
                              essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
                              can.
                              > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
                              is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
                              comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
                              bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
                              But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
                              That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
                              soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
                              an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
                              culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
                              skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
                              a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
                              school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
                              spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
                              moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                              > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
                              avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
                              things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
                              > www.DrStarman.com
                              > .
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
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                            • happypick2000
                              Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                                Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                                Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                                simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                                important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                                inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                                discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                                existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                                Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                                be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                                else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                                consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                                accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                                definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                                cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                                This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                                our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                                so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                                cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                                such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                                beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                                impasse.

                                Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                                the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                                haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                                the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                                mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                                Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                                spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                                Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                                plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                                to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                                perhaps as an etheric human?

                                We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                                we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                                to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                                actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                                important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                                Blessings,
                                Sheila

                                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                                <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                                > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                                > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                                > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                                > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                                > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                                > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                                > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                                > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                                > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                                > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                                >
                                > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                                > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                                > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                                > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                                > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                                > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                                > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                                > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                                > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                                >
                                > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                                > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                                > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                                > School in Stuttgart":
                                >
                                > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                                > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                                > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                                > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                                > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                                > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                                > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                                > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                                > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                                > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                                > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                                > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                                > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                                > human form.
                                >
                                > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                                > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                                > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                                > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                                > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                                > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                                > 36-37)
                                >
                                > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                                > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                                > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                                > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                                > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                                > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                                > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                                > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                                > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                                > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                                > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                                > teaching that I find discouraging.
                                >
                                > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                                > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                                > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                                > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                                > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                                > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                                > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                                > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                                > bigot.
                                >
                                > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                                > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                                > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                                > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                                > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                                > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                                > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                                > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                                > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                                > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                                > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                                > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                                >
                                > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                                > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                                > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                                > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                                > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                                > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                                >
                                > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                                > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                                >
                                > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                                >
                                > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                                > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                                > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                                > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                                > science."
                                >
                                > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                                > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                                > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                                > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                                > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                                > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                                > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                                > honest question.
                                >
                                > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                                > of WWI":
                                >
                                > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                                > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                                > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                                > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                                > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                                > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                                > by the four other cultural epochs".
                                >
                                > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                                > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                                > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                                > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                                > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                                > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                                > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                                > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                                > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                                > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                                >
                                > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                                > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                                > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                                > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                                > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                                > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                                > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                                > opinion.
                                >
                                > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                                > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                                > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                                > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                                > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                                > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                                > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                                > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                                > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                                > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                                > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                                > to culturally, indeed. "
                                >
                                > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                                > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                                > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                                > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                                >
                                > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                                > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                                > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                                > blood children will be born in Europe"
                                >
                                > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                                > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                                > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                                > racist.
                                >
                                > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                                > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                                > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                                > to me. Definitions, please."
                                >
                                > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                                > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                                > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                                > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                                > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                                > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                                > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                                > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                                > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                                > development."
                                >
                                > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                                >
                                > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                                > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                                > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                                > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                                > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                                > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                                > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                                > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                                > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                                > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                                > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                                > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                                >
                                > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                                > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                                > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                                >
                                > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                                > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                                > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                                > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                                > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                                > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                                > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                                > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                                > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                                > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                                > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                                > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                                > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                                > Mill put it (7).
                                >
                                > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                                > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                                > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                                > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                                > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                                > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                                > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                                > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                                > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                                > allowed to be so confused. "
                                >
                                > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                                > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                                > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                                > another.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                                > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                                > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                                > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                                > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                                > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                                > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                                > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                                > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                                > >
                                > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                                > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                                > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                                > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                                > >
                                > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                                > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                                > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                                > through spiritual science."
                                > >
                                > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                                > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                                > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                                > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                                > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                                > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                                > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                                > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                                > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                                > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                                > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                                > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                                > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                                > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                                > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                                > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                                > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                                > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                                > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                                > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                                > >
                                > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                                > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                                > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                                > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                                > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                                > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                                > >
                                > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                                > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                                > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                                > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                                > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                                > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                                > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                                > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                                > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                                > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                                > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                                > to culturally, indeed.
                                > >
                                > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                                > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                                > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                                > to me. Definitions, please.
                                > >
                                > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                                > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                                > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                                > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                                > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                                > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                                > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                                > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                                > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                                > development.
                                > >
                                > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                                > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                                > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                                > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                                > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                                > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                                > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                                > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                                > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                                > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                                > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                                > Malcolm X.
                                > >
                                > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                                > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                                > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                                > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                                > >
                                > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                                > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                                > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                                > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                                > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                                > culture just as much as old ones.
                                > >
                                > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                                > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                                > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                                > >
                                > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                                > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                                > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                                > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                                > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                                > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                                > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                                > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                                > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                                > allowed to be so confused.
                                > >
                                > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                                > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                                > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                                > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                                > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                                > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                                > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                                > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                                > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                                > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                                > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                                > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                                > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                                > >
                                > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                                > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                                > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                                > civilization.
                                > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                                > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                                > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                                > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                                > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                                > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                                > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                                > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                                > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                                > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                                > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                                > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                                > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                                > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                                > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                                > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                                > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                                > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                                > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                                > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                                > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                                > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                                > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                                > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                                > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                                > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                                > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                                > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                                > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                                > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                                > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                                > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                                > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                                > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                                > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                                > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                                > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                                > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                                > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                                > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                                > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                                > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                                > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                                > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                                > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                                > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                                > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                                > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                                > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                                > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                                > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                                > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                                > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                                > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                                > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                                > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                                > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                                > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                                > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                                > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                                > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                                > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                                > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                                > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                                > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                                > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                                > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                                > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                                > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                                > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                                > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                                > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                                > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                                > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                                > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                                > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                                > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                                > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                                > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                                > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                                > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                                > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                                > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                                > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                                > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                                > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                                > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                                > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                                > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                                > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                                > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                                > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                                > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                                > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                                > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                                > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                                > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                                > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                                > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                                > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                                > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                                > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                                > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                                > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                                > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                                > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                                > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                                > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                                > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                                > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                                > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                                > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                                > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                                > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                                > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                                > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                                > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                                > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                                > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                                > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                                > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                                > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                                > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                                > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                                > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                                > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                                > > .
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > _________________________________________________________________
                                > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
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                                > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                                > >
                                >
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