Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Miscegenation?

Expand Messages
  • christopherraymond_bio
    The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races: There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how miscegenation allowed man to lose
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 12, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:

      There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
      miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
      advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
      today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
      engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
      a revived form of clairvoyance.

      However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
      clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
      Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
      around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
      wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
      part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
      after their decent out from Atlantis.

      He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
      ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
      example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
      were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
      the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
      prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
      the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
      yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
      the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
      `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
      races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
      pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
      (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
      unclear.)

      Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
      should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
      sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
      if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
      whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
      correctly.

      What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
      internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
      translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
      books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
      gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
      think, without all the going back and forth between views,
      translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.

      Thanks in advance,
      Chris.
    • happypick2000
      ... Dear Chris and Friends, Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 12, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
        >
        > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
        >
        > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
        > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
        > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
        > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
        > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
        > a revived form of clairvoyance.
        >
        > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
        > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
        > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
        > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
        > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
        > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
        > after their decent out from Atlantis.
        >
        > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
        > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
        > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
        > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
        > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
        > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
        > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
        > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
        > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
        > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
        > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
        > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
        > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
        > unclear.)
        >
        > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
        > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
        > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
        > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
        > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
        > correctly.
        >
        > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
        > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
        > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
        > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
        > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
        > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
        > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
        >
        > Thanks in advance,
        > Chris.
        >
        Dear Chris and Friends,

        Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
        short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
        supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an understandable
        answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
        1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual Folk
        Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
        varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk Souls,
        etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points would be,
        in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding of "Kar.
        Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical Movement".

        I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
        perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept, but
        most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
        through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper understanding
        of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own personal
        "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
        such, which is so very important in my opinion.

        My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
        originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
        Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
        whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
        description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
        inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in abeyance
        until certain points seem to have culminated into additional insights
        and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able to
        write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
        very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work. I
        include it below as it is in my copy.
        ======================================================================
        PREFACE
        [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in 1910.]
        In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
        1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the development
        of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of Anthroposophy
        which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
        Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was able to
        build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with the
        scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is the
        external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is however a
        further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of anthroposophy,
        ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework for a
        true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
        information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of anatomy and
        physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of man. If
        we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must study
        the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real insight
        into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
        spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual element,
        however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human souls
        working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The higher
        spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
        stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of Folk
        Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the reality of
        thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it is
        equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth to the
        forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to be
        paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces which
        determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the needle
        itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect of
        the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes of
        this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons for
        the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
        cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the anthroposophical
        view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
        totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
        higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and seeds the
        forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We then
        investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the peoples
        and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis. The
        conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their mutual
        relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without this
        basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either one
        must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual reality
        or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
        I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the early
        centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual beings. An
        Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use of
        this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today, there
        seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
        thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our Western
        civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or if
        an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could only be
        fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
        civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems to me
        that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
        assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
        names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than physical
        science objects to terms such as positive and negative electricity,
        magnetism, polorized light, etc.
        Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the painful
        trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then said
        throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February 1918}
        Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in the
        light of the present world situation these earlier investigations were
        a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
        will find the following passage: "...we have every reason, especially
        at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission of
        the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
        complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order today
        to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
        because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
        together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
        order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members of
        the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper, free
        and positive contributions if they have, above all, an understanding
        of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might call 'the
        self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when the
        fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
        Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which shows
        how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the supersensible
        reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
        life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of life.
        This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
        concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
        describe the nature and development of peoples. This
        mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in exploiting
        the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
        civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of mankind we
        need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is the
        first demand of our age.
        Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
        ======================================================================
        I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
        comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have found
        follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
        this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is incredibly
        vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and Friends.

        Blessings,
        Sheila
      • christopherraymond_bio
        Hi Sheila, it s nice to hear from you. I ve been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr.
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.

          I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
          post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may have
          been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
          regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
          views.

          Blessings,
          Chris.



          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
          > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
          > >
          > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
          > >
          > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
          > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
          order to
          > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
          this
          > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
          > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
          developing
          > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
          > >
          > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
          becomes
          > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
          advanced
          > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
          running
          > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
          Steiner
          > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due
          in
          > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too
          slow
          > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
          > >
          > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
          > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
          > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America
          who
          > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
          signifying
          > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
          > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
          that
          > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
          not
          > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
          > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
          > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
          > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
          > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
          pregnancy.
          > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
          > > unclear.)
          > >
          > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught
          we
          > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
          quotes, or
          > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any
          help
          > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
          question of
          > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
          > > correctly.
          > >
          > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
          > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
          > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from
          the
          > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such
          a
          > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
          clear I
          > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
          > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
          > >
          > > Thanks in advance,
          > > Chris.
          > >
          > Dear Chris and Friends,
          >
          > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
          > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
          > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an understandable
          > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
          > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual Folk
          > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
          > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
          Souls,
          > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points would
          be,
          > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
          of "Kar.
          > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
          Movement".
          >
          > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
          > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
          but
          > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
          > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper understanding
          > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
          personal
          > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
          > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
          >
          > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
          > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
          > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
          > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
          > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
          > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
          abeyance
          > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
          insights
          > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able to
          > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
          > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work. I
          > include it below as it is in my copy.
          >
          ======================================================================
          > PREFACE
          > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
          1910.]
          > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
          > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
          development
          > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
          Anthroposophy
          > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
          > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was able
          to
          > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with the
          > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is the
          > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
          however a
          > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
          anthroposophy,
          > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
          for a
          > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
          > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of anatomy
          and
          > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of man.
          If
          > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must study
          > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real insight
          > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
          > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
          element,
          > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human souls
          > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The higher
          > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
          > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
          Folk
          > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the reality
          of
          > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it is
          > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth to
          the
          > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to be
          > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces which
          > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
          needle
          > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect of
          > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes of
          > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons for
          > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
          > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
          anthroposophical
          > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
          > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
          > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and seeds
          the
          > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
          then
          > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
          peoples
          > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis. The
          > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
          mutual
          > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without this
          > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
          one
          > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
          reality
          > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
          > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the early
          > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual beings.
          An
          > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use of
          > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today, there
          > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
          > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
          Western
          > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or if
          > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could only
          be
          > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
          > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems to
          me
          > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
          > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
          > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
          physical
          > science objects to terms such as positive and negative electricity,
          > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
          > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
          painful
          > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
          said
          > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
          1918}
          > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in the
          > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
          were
          > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
          > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
          especially
          > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission of
          > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
          > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
          today
          > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
          > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
          > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
          > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members of
          > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper, free
          > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an understanding
          > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might call 'the
          > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
          the
          > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
          > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
          shows
          > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the supersensible
          > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
          > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of life.
          > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
          > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
          > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
          > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in exploiting
          > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
          > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of mankind
          we
          > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
          the
          > first demand of our age.
          > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
          >
          ======================================================================

          > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
          > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have found
          > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
          > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
          incredibly
          > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and Friends.
          >
          > Blessings,
          > Sheila
          >
        • christopherraymond_bio
          Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html

            "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
            colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
            evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
            civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
            people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
            environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
            new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
            certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came
            to their particular parts of the world."

            Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
            regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:

            "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
            these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that
            the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."


            Dr. Steiner continues....:

            "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
            considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
            upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
            useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.

            Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
            mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
            fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
            ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the lower
            apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is too
            far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
            with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
            mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
            actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
            clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
            with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
            entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
            blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
            influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace it
            back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
            conducted from this standpoint.

            We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
            connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
            case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
            physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in contact
            with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
            blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
            power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
            exogamy.

            Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too far
            removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
            original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
            destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
            Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
            similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
            the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
            strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
            blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
            consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
            the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
            been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
            intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
            That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in his
            ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
            principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital fluids
            and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
            the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
            etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
            system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
            the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore, would
            master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be borne
            in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For example,
            the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
            you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood the
            ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
            possess his blood."


            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
            The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
            the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:

            "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
            itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
            also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
            heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
            expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
            These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
            innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
            was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
            developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed their
            ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the outer
            world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
            scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the Atlantean
            initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other men
            who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
            of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
            could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed ego-
            feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
            became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
            were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
            ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from the
            outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
            surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
            human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use for
            the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
            great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
            of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
            strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
            manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the West
            and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the Red
            Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
            developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
            became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
            those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
            evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
            brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and on
            the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
            the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of egohood
            is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling of
            ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
            as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these two
            phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the West
            and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
            whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
            people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
            who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like plants:
            they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin and
            became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
            Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
            population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
            developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who had
            developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
            were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from the
            place we know of in Asia."

            The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
            developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
            advanced stages of Ego development."

            "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
            the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
            stages of development. These were also turned to account, of course.
            To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
            suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
            example, in the migration from West to East a people remained behind
            in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
            degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
            from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
            result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
            the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
            especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
            feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least in
            this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples who
            had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
            milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
            rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
            nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
            outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able to
            say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
            personality was from the beginning their essential feature."

            Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on something
            more than environment:

            "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
            situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
            which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave rise
            to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
            direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
            possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is very
            important that we realise the connection between the sun's influence
            on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
            matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see how
            much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these possible
            shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that particular
            part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
            were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
            till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
            people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised by
            peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
            acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours to
            be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
            have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
            the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
            world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls in
            every possible part of Asia."

            Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
            ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.

            "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and African
            peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
            combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
            manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups of
            people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming the
            root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
            the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
            feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the ego-
            feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
            North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times, you
            find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
            were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
            character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on the
            bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia with
            passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity expresses
            itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
            etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
            the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
            people"

            "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
            Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
            countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let us
            remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
            found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies but
            whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
            fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
            physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward. And
            we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just think
            how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
            times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
            who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
            one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
            other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves with
            the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
            to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with the
            one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
            say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
            individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
            two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
            arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and West.
            And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea of
            God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
            itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
            Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
            personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
            we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of a
            God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
            developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this particular
            belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still inward,
            still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
            still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a small
            degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
            personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
            also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner being.
            Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the greatest
            wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
            Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And because
            these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
            entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
            remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
            remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
            clairvoyance."


            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html

            "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
            civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
            era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it were,
            but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
            understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in a
            certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a higher
            ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
            learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's inhabitant's
            did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
            development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard to
            the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
            Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
            earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What would
            they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
            development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
            develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
            men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
            strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that is
            how they became red. Their development led them into decadence. Among
            the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
            the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call inner
            brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
            could find within themselves everything that had to be developed. At
            the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
            significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
            altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They did
            not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner. But
            those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
            they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
            the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
            holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
            future."




            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
            <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
            >
            > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
            > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
            have
            > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
            > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
            > views.
            >
            > Blessings,
            > Chris.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
            > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
            > > >
            > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
            > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
            > order to
            > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
            > this
            > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
            > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
            > developing
            > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
            > > >
            > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
            > becomes
            > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
            > advanced
            > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
            > running
            > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
            > Steiner
            > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
            due
            > in
            > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
            too
            > slow
            > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
            > > >
            > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
            > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
            > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
            America
            > who
            > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
            > signifying
            > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
            which
            > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
            > that
            > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
            > not
            > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught
            how
            > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
            > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
            > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
            > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
            > pregnancy.
            > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
            > > > unclear.)
            > > >
            > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
            taught
            > we
            > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
            > quotes, or
            > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
            any
            > help
            > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
            > question of
            > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
            > > > correctly.
            > > >
            > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
            > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
            > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
            from
            > the
            > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
            such
            > a
            > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
            > clear I
            > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
            > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks in advance,
            > > > Chris.
            > > >
            > > Dear Chris and Friends,
            > >
            > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
            > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
            > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
            understandable
            > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
            > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
            Folk
            > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
            > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
            > Souls,
            > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
            would
            > be,
            > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
            > of "Kar.
            > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
            > Movement".
            > >
            > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
            > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
            > but
            > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
            > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
            understanding
            > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
            > personal
            > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
            > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
            > >
            > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
            > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
            > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
            > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
            > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
            > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
            > abeyance
            > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
            > insights
            > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able
            to
            > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
            > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work.
            I
            > > include it below as it is in my copy.
            > >
            >
            ======================================================================
            > > PREFACE
            > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
            > 1910.]
            > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
            > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
            > development
            > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
            > Anthroposophy
            > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
            > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
            able
            > to
            > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with
            the
            > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is
            the
            > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
            > however a
            > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
            > anthroposophy,
            > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
            > for a
            > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
            > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
            anatomy
            > and
            > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
            man.
            > If
            > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
            study
            > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
            insight
            > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
            > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
            > element,
            > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
            souls
            > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
            higher
            > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
            > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
            > Folk
            > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
            reality
            > of
            > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it
            is
            > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
            to
            > the
            > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to
            be
            > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
            which
            > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
            > needle
            > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect
            of
            > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes
            of
            > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons
            for
            > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
            > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
            > anthroposophical
            > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
            > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
            > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
            seeds
            > the
            > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
            > then
            > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
            > peoples
            > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
            The
            > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
            > mutual
            > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
            this
            > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
            > one
            > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
            > reality
            > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
            > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
            early
            > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
            beings.
            > An
            > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use
            of
            > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
            there
            > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
            > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
            > Western
            > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or
            if
            > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
            only
            > be
            > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
            > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems
            to
            > me
            > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
            > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
            > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
            > physical
            > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
            electricity,
            > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
            > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
            > painful
            > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
            > said
            > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
            > 1918}
            > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in
            the
            > > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
            > were
            > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
            > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
            > especially
            > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission
            of
            > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
            > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
            > today
            > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
            > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
            > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
            > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members
            of
            > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
            free
            > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
            understanding
            > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
            call 'the
            > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
            > the
            > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
            > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
            > shows
            > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
            supersensible
            > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
            > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
            life.
            > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
            > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
            > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
            > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
            exploiting
            > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
            > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
            mankind
            > we
            > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
            > the
            > > first demand of our age.
            > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
            > >
            >
            ======================================================================
            >
            > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
            > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
            found
            > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
            > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
            > incredibly
            > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
            Friends.
            > >
            > > Blessings,
            > > Sheila
            > >
            >
          • christopherraymond_bio
            I have concluded thus: On the one hand, all humans are limited to what the blood can handle in terms of exogamy or miscegenation. It is true that some older
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I have concluded thus:

              On the one hand, all humans are limited to what the blood can handle
              in terms of exogamy or miscegenation. It is true that some older
              races are less equipped to move past what is based upon the
              surroundings and those imprints within their own blood. Yet, we are
              also not bound to merely the bodily processes alone. However the
              fact remains still how racial differences do play a role in those who
              have not acquired the necessary faculties of becoming something more
              spiritual. As Dr. Steiner also mentioned, the races were not
              intended to co-exist but be consecutive. Thus what is more physical
              or dominant will take over in the long run through miscegenation and
              exogamy unless we can have a Spiritual Science as in Anthroposophy.

              Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics
              mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
              actual readings:

              http://sociologyesoscience.com/esoterica/cbooks1.html

              "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
              years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
              people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
              without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
              reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)

              Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
              http://www.ciis.edu/cayce/Smith.html

              "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)

              It would be easy for me or anyone to dismiss these readings as being
              spoken through a demonic channel, or a racist view that had much to
              do with Cayce's own personal beliefs. There are clues that led me to
              believe that he was referring to the vibrations of the Souls that
              incarnated into these Negro bodies; or more often than not it might
              have been the case.

              Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
              http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19101228p01.html and before we
              discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
              directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
              Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)

              "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
              and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
              the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
              being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
              discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
              astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
              to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
              Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
              the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
              philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
              older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
              opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
              in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
              that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
              here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
              coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
              negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
              characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
              expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
              calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
              a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
              preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
              the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
              Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
              value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
              nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
              essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
              soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
              whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
              only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
              culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
              opening up a wide vista into the future."

              We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
              transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
              the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
              skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
              a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
              the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
              lacking in genes.

              Dr. Steiner mentioned:

              "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
              must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
              were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
              perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
              form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."

              In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
              processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
              Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
              skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
              recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
              This is already known to biology today.

              Blessings,
              Chris



              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html
              >
              > "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
              > colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
              > evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
              > civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
              > people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood
              this
              > environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
              > new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
              > certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists
              came
              > to their particular parts of the world."
              >
              > Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
              > regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:
              >
              > "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
              > these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain
              that
              > the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."
              >
              >
              > Dr. Steiner continues....:
              >
              > "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
              > considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
              > upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
              > useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.
              >
              > Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
              > mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
              > fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
              > ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the
              lower
              > apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is
              too
              > far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
              > with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
              > mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
              > actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
              > clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
              > with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
              > entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
              > blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
              > influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace
              it
              > back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
              > conducted from this standpoint.
              >
              > We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
              > connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
              > case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
              > physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in
              contact
              > with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
              > blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
              > power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
              > exogamy.
              >
              > Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too
              far
              > removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
              > original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
              > destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
              > Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
              > similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
              > the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
              > strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
              > blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
              > consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
              > the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
              > been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
              > intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
              > That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in
              his
              > ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
              > principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital
              fluids
              > and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
              > the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
              > etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
              > system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
              > the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore,
              would
              > master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be
              borne
              > in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For
              example,
              > the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
              > you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood
              the
              > ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
              > possess his blood."
              >
              >
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
              > The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
              > the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:
              >
              > "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
              > itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
              > also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
              > heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
              > expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
              > These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
              > innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
              > was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
              > developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed
              their
              > ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the
              outer
              > world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
              > scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the
              Atlantean
              > initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other
              men
              > who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
              > of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
              > could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed
              ego-
              > feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
              > became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
              > were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
              > ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from
              the
              > outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
              > surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
              > human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use
              for
              > the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
              > great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
              > of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
              > strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
              > manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the
              West
              > and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the
              Red
              > Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
              > developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
              > became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
              > those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
              > evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
              > brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and
              on
              > the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
              > the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of
              egohood
              > is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling
              of
              > ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
              > as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these
              two
              > phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the
              West
              > and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
              > whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
              > people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
              > who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like
              plants:
              > they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin
              and
              > became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
              > Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
              > population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
              > developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who
              had
              > developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
              > were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from
              the
              > place we know of in Asia."
              >
              > The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
              > developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
              > advanced stages of Ego development."
              >
              > "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
              > the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
              > stages of development. These were also turned to account, of
              course.
              > To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
              > suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
              > example, in the migration from West to East a people remained
              behind
              > in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
              > degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
              > from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
              > result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
              > the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
              > especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
              > feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least
              in
              > this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples
              who
              > had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
              > milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
              > rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
              > nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
              > outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able
              to
              > say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
              > personality was from the beginning their essential feature."
              >
              > Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on
              something
              > more than environment:
              >
              > "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
              > situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
              > which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave
              rise
              > to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
              > direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
              > possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is
              very
              > important that we realise the connection between the sun's
              influence
              > on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
              > matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see
              how
              > much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these
              possible
              > shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that
              particular
              > part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
              > were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
              > till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
              > people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised
              by
              > peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
              > acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours
              to
              > be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
              > have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
              > the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
              > world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls
              in
              > every possible part of Asia."
              >
              > Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
              > ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.
              >
              > "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and
              African
              > peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
              > combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
              > manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups
              of
              > people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming
              the
              > root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
              > the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
              > feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the
              ego-
              > feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
              > North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times,
              you
              > find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
              > were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
              > character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on
              the
              > bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia
              with
              > passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity
              expresses
              > itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
              > etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
              > the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
              > people"
              >
              > "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
              > Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
              > countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let
              us
              > remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
              > found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies
              but
              > whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
              > fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
              > physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward.
              And
              > we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just
              think
              > how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
              > times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
              > who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
              > one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
              > other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves
              with
              > the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
              > to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with
              the
              > one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
              > say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
              > individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
              > two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
              > arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and
              West.
              > And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea
              of
              > God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
              > itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
              > Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
              > personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
              > we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of
              a
              > God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
              > developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this
              particular
              > belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still
              inward,
              > still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
              > still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a
              small
              > degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
              > personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
              > also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner
              being.
              > Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the
              greatest
              > wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
              > Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And
              because
              > these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
              > entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
              > remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
              > remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
              > clairvoyance."
              >
              >
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
              >
              > "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
              > civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
              > era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it
              were,
              > but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
              > understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in
              a
              > certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a
              higher
              > ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
              > learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's
              inhabitant's
              > did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
              > development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard
              to
              > the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
              > Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
              > earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What
              would
              > they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
              > development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
              > develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
              > men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
              > strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that
              is
              > how they became red. Their development led them into decadence.
              Among
              > the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
              > the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call
              inner
              > brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
              > could find within themselves everything that had to be developed.
              At
              > the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
              > significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
              > altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They
              did
              > not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner.
              But
              > those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
              > they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
              > the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
              > holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
              > future."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
              > >
              > > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I
              will
              > > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
              > have
              > > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
              > > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp
              his
              > > views.
              > >
              > > Blessings,
              > > Chris.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@>
              wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
              races:
              > > > >
              > > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
              > > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
              > > order to
              > > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we
              interpret
              > > this
              > > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
              be
              > > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
              > > developing
              > > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
              > > > >
              > > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races
              it
              > > becomes
              > > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
              > > advanced
              > > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
              > > running
              > > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example,
              Dr.
              > > Steiner
              > > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
              > due
              > > in
              > > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
              > too
              > > slow
              > > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
              > > > >
              > > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
              > > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin.
              For
              > > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
              > America
              > > who
              > > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
              > > signifying
              > > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
              > which
              > > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
              Likewise,
              > > that
              > > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and
              had
              > > not
              > > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
              taught
              > how
              > > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
              > > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
              these
              > > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
              to
              > > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
              > > pregnancy.
              > > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
              am
              > > > > unclear.)
              > > > >
              > > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
              > taught
              > > we
              > > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
              > > quotes, or
              > > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
              > any
              > > help
              > > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
              > > question of
              > > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be
              understood
              > > > > correctly.
              > > > >
              > > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
              > > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
              > > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
              > from
              > > the
              > > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
              > such
              > > a
              > > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
              > > clear I
              > > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
              > > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks in advance,
              > > > > Chris.
              > > > >
              > > > Dear Chris and Friends,
              > > >
              > > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see
              a
              > > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough
              to
              > > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
              > understandable
              > > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to
              Steiner's
              > > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
              > Folk
              > > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding
              the
              > > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
              > > Souls,
              > > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
              > would
              > > be,
              > > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
              > > of "Kar.
              > > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
              > > Movement".
              > > >
              > > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls"
              and
              > > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that
              concept,
              > > but
              > > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's
              advancement
              > > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
              > understanding
              > > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
              > > personal
              > > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point
              as
              > > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
              > > >
              > > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
              > > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
              > > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
              > > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
              > > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
              > > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
              > > abeyance
              > > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
              > > insights
              > > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't
              able
              > to
              > > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface
              is
              > > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific
              work.
              > I
              > > > include it below as it is in my copy.
              > > >
              > >
              >
              ======================================================================
              > > > PREFACE
              > > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
              > > 1910.]
              > > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in
              June
              > > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
              > > development
              > > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
              > > Anthroposophy
              > > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
              > > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
              > able
              > > to
              > > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar
              with
              > the
              > > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That
              is
              > the
              > > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
              > > however a
              > > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
              > > anthroposophy,
              > > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate
              framework
              > > for a
              > > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
              > > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
              > anatomy
              > > and
              > > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
              > man.
              > > If
              > > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
              > study
              > > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
              > insight
              > > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
              > > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
              > > element,
              > > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
              > souls
              > > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
              > higher
              > > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a
              total
              > > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak
              of
              > > Folk
              > > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
              > reality
              > > of
              > > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and
              it
              > is
              > > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
              > to
              > > the
              > > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases
              to
              > be
              > > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
              > which
              > > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
              > > needle
              > > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the
              effect
              > of
              > > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the
              causes
              > of
              > > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the
              reasons
              > for
              > > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
              > > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
              > > anthroposophical
              > > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
              > > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which
              sees a
              > > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
              > seeds
              > > the
              > > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality.
              We
              > > then
              > > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
              > > peoples
              > > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
              > The
              > > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
              > > mutual
              > > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
              > this
              > > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach.
              Either
              > > one
              > > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
              > > reality
              > > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
              > > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
              > early
              > > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
              > beings.
              > > An
              > > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the
              use
              > of
              > > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
              > there
              > > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
              > > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
              > > Western
              > > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen,
              or
              > if
              > > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
              > only
              > > be
              > > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
              > > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It
              seems
              > to
              > > me
              > > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual
              relationships,
              > > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object
              to
              > > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
              > > physical
              > > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
              > electricity,
              > > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
              > > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
              > > painful
              > > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I
              then
              > > said
              > > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now.
              {February
              > > 1918}
              > > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that
              in
              > the
              > > > light of the present world situation these earlier
              investigations
              > > were
              > > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture
              you
              > > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
              > > especially
              > > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the
              mission
              > of
              > > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to
              maintain
              > > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in
              order
              > > today
              > > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly
              important
              > > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
              > > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case
              in
              > > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the
              members
              > of
              > > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
              > free
              > > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
              > understanding
              > > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
              > call 'the
              > > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come
              when
              > > the
              > > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
              > > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls"
              which
              > > shows
              > > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
              > supersensible
              > > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view
              of
              > > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
              > life.
              > > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses
              such
              > > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order
              to
              > > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
              > > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
              > exploiting
              > > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit
              of
              > > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
              > mankind
              > > we
              > > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science
              is
              > > the
              > > > first demand of our age.
              > > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf
              Steiner
              > > >
              > >
              >
              ======================================================================
              > >
              > > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
              > > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
              > found
              > > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found
              in
              > > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
              > > incredibly
              > > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
              > Friends.
              > > >
              > > > Blessings,
              > > > Sheila
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • happypick2000
              Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner s words dealing with the Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be thoroughly researched.
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Chris, some of this may pertain to Steiner's words dealing with the
                Indian Caste system - not sure where [in which work(s)] that may be
                thoroughly researched.
                Blessings,
                Sheila

                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                >
                > Some quotes by Dr. Steiner on exogamy:
                > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccBld_index.html
                >
                > "When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
                > colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
                > evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
                > civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
                > people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
                > environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a
                > new form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why
                > certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came
                > to their particular parts of the world."
                >
                > Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that may of some interest in
                > regard to the above statement by Dr. Steiner:
                >
                > "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of faith then that
                > these [the Negro] people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that
                > the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government."
                >
                >
                > Dr. Steiner continues....:
                >
                > "It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
                > considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced
                > upon all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is
                > useless to demand from blood more than it can endure.
                >
                > Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is
                > mixed with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is
                > fatal to that of the other. This has been known to occultism for
                > ages. If you mingle the blood of human beings with that of the lower
                > apes, the result is destructive to the species, since the one is too
                > far removed from the other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man
                > with that of the higher apes, death does not ensue. Just as this
                > mingling of the blood of different species of animals brings about
                > actual death when the types are too remote, so, too, the ancient
                > clairvoyance of undeveloped man was killed when his blood was mixed
                > with the blood of others who did not belong to the same stock. The
                > entire intellectual life of today is the outcome of the mingling of
                > blood, and the time is not far distant when people will study the
                > influence this had upon human life, and they will be able to trace it
                > back in the history of humanity when investigations are once more
                > conducted from this standpoint.
                >
                > We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
                > connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the
                > case of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The
                > physical organism of man survives when strange blood comes in contact
                > with strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible
                > blood types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant
                > power perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or
                > exogamy.
                >
                > Man is so constituted that when blood mingles with blood not too far
                > removed in evolution, the intellect is born. By this means the
                > original clairvoyance which belonged to the lower animal-man was
                > destroyed, and a new form of consciousness took its place.
                > Thus in the higher stage of human development we find something
                > similar to what happens at a lower stage in the animal kingdom. In
                > the latter, strange blood kills strange blood. In the human kingdom
                > strange blood kills that which is intimately bound up with kindred
                > blood, viz., the dim, dreary clairvoyance. Our everyday objective
                > consciousness is therefore the outcome of a destructive process. In
                > the course of evolution the kind of mental life due to endogamy has
                > been destroyed, but in its stead exogamy has given birth to the
                > intellect, to the wide-awake consciousness of the present day.
                > That which is able to live in man's blood is that which lives in his
                > ego. Just as the physical body is the expression of the physical
                > principle, as the etheric body is the expression of the vital fluids
                > and their systems, and the astral body of the nervous system, so is
                > the blood the expression of the "I," or ego. Physical principle,
                > etheric body, and astral body are the "Above"; physical body, vital
                > system, and nervous system are the "below." Similarly, the ego is
                > the "above," and the blood is the "below." Whoever, therefore, would
                > master a man, must first master that man's blood. This must be borne
                > in mind if any advance is to be made in practical life. For example,
                > the individuality of a people may be destroyed if, when colonizing,
                > you demand from its blood more than it can bear, for in the blood the
                > ego is expressed. Beauty and truth possess a man only when they
                > possess his blood."
                >
                >
                > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
                > The below defines differences between the red skinned natives,
                > the blacks and yellow skinned peoples:
                >
                > "So we see that in Atlantean times the human body could still form
                > itself according to spiritual characteristics. Therefore it could
                > also take on the form which enabled it to mould all the organs,
                > heart, brain, and so on, in such a way that they could become the
                > expression of an actual ego being, a being with self-consciousness.
                > These capacities and characteristics, however, developed on
                > innumerable different levels. There were people whose inner nature
                > was correctly balanced and who were normal, for they had not
                > developed egoism to too great an extent, nor had they developed their
                > ego-feeling solely on a lower level. With them, devotion to the outer
                > world and ego-feeling maintained a balance. Such people were
                > scattered about everywhere. And these were the men that the Atlantean
                > initiates could do most with. On the other hand there were other men
                > who had developed a tremendously strong ego-feeling, much too soon,
                > of course; for human beings had not yet reached the point when they
                > could make of their bodies an instrument for a strongly developed ego-
                > feeling. This made the body hardened in egoism as it were, and it
                > became impossible for it to develop beyond a certain point. There
                > were other people again who had not reached anything like a normal
                > ego-feeling because they were more susceptible to influences from the
                > outer world than they should have been; peoples who had completely
                > surrendered themselves to the outer world. Thus it was the normal
                > human beings that were the best material for the initiates to use for
                > the evolution of the future, and they were also the ones that the
                > great sun initiate, Manu, gathered around him as being most capable
                > of evolving. Those peoples whose ego impulse was developed too
                > strongly, so that it permeated their whole being and made it a
                > manifestation of egohood, these people gradually wandered to the West
                > and became the nation the last survivors of which appeared as the Red
                > Indians of America. Those people whose ego-feeling was too little
                > developed migrated to the East, and the survivors of these people
                > became the subsequent Negro population of Africa. If you look at
                > those things in a really spiritual scientific way you will see
                > evidence of them right into the physical characteristics. If a man
                > brings his whole inner being to expression in his physiognomy and on
                > the surface of his body, then it permeates his external being with
                > the colour of his inner nature as it were. Now the colour of egohood
                > is red or copper or a yellowish brown. And an overpowering feeling of
                > ego arising from offended self-respect can even nowadays turn a man
                > as it were yellow with rage. They are absolutely connected, these two
                > phenomena: the red colour of those peoples that migrated to the West
                > and the yellow colour of the man whose `blood boils' as we say, and
                > whose inner nature is showing itself right into his skin. Those
                > people, however, who had developed their ego being too little, and
                > who were too exposed to the influences of the sun, were like plants:
                > they deposited too many carbonic constituents beneath their skin and
                > became black. This is why the Negroes are black. Thus both east of
                > Atlantis in the black population and west of Atlantis in the red
                > population we find survivors of the kind of people who had not
                > developed their ego-feeling in a normal way. The human beings who had
                > developed normally lent themselves best to progress. Therefore they
                > were the ones chosen to infiltrate the various other regions from the
                > place we know of in Asia."
                >
                > The next quotes by Dr. Steiner indicate that the Europeans were
                > developed in a way which was best suited as containers for more
                > advanced stages of Ego development."
                >
                > "Now between the little group of people Manu gathered round him and
                > the extreme cases there were obviously innumerable intermediary
                > stages of development. These were also turned to account, of course.
                > To some extent these intermediary levels were extraordinarily
                > suitable for the further evolution of earth civilisation. Thus for
                > example, in the migration from West to East a people remained behind
                > in parts of Europe who had developed their ego-feeling to a marked
                > degree, but who were at the same time not very open to influences
                > from the environment. Think what a peculiar mixture was bound to
                > result in Europe. Those people who migrated to the East and became
                > the black race were very susceptible to external influences,
                > especially that of the sun, just because they had so little ego-
                > feeling. But other peoples migrated into these parts, or at least in
                > this direction, who had a strong ego-feeling. These were peoples who
                > had preferred as it were going East to going West, and they are a
                > milder red than they would have been had they gone West. They gave
                > rise to the race of people who had a strong ego-feeling which
                > nevertheless kept a balance between this and their devotion to the
                > outer world. Those are the peoples of Europe of whom we were able to
                > say in the last public lecture that their strong feeling of
                > personality was from the beginning their essential feature."
                >
                > Here Dr. Steiner refers to the color of skin being based on something
                > more than environment:
                >
                > "Thus we see how man's outer surroundings work on his inner
                > situation, and how the earth, through the different positions in
                > which the areas of its surface are exposed to the sunlight, gave rise
                > to innumerable levels of soul development. All according to the
                > direction in which the souls looked, they found a different
                > possibility for developing themselves in a physical body. It is very
                > important that we realise the connection between the sun's influence
                > on the earth and man's evolution. If some day you follow up these
                > matters with me as far as the details of later times you will see how
                > much becomes comprehensible through the fact that all these possible
                > shades of colouring arose. Thus for example there was that particular
                > part of the population that stayed in Europe whose characteristics
                > were as I have described, and they led an independent existence up
                > till much later times. They did not concern themselves about other
                > people; but those that migrated into the regions already colonised by
                > peoples with various shades of dark skin, and mixed with them,
                > acquired every possible shade of skin colour. Look at the colours to
                > be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow races. Hence you
                > have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of soul, from
                > the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up to the outer
                > world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls in
                > every possible part of Asia."
                >
                > Thus he makes it clear that the darker skinned people are having
                > ether bodies that penetrate deeper into the physical body.
                >
                > "Various characteristics of the evolution of the Asiatic and African
                > peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present various
                > combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
                > manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups of
                > people representing combinations: those on European soil, forming the
                > root stock of the white population, who had predominantly developed
                > the feeling of personality, but who did not migrate to where the
                > feeling of personality permeated the whole body, but to where the ego-
                > feeling became more inward. Therefore in western Asia and partly in
                > North Africa and the countries of Europe, too, in earlier times, you
                > find a people with a strong inner ego-feeling, but who on the whole
                > were not given to losing themselves in the outer world; their inner
                > character was strong and firm, but it did not set its imprint on the
                > bodily nature. On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia with
                > passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity expresses
                > itself in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the
                > etheric body penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is
                > the fundamental difference between the European and the Asiatic
                > people"
                >
                > "A teaching such as this would not have been understood in Europe.
                > Europe was situated much too near the North Pole for that, and the
                > countries have kept a certain similarity right down the ages. Let us
                > remind ourselves that it was at the North Pole that we previously
                > found the peoples that did not descend right into physical bodies but
                > whose physical bodies were actually to a certain extent stunted. In
                > fact the European peoples had not as yet quite descended into their
                > physical bodies. They turned their feeling of personality inward. And
                > we would find this more and more the further back we went. Just think
                > how this feeling of personality has been preserved right into later
                > times, when people perhaps no longer saw any reason for it. Someone
                > who belonged to the East would have said: I unite myself with the
                > one, all-embracing Brahma! Thou unitest thyself with Brahma! The
                > other man unites himself with Brahma, they all unite themselves with
                > the one Brahma! With whom did the European unite himself, if he had
                > to acknowledge this as an acceptable idea? He united himself with the
                > one valkyrie, with the one higher soul. And the valkyrie, one might
                > say, was there for each one at the moment of death. It was all an
                > individual, personal matter. And it was only at the border of these
                > two regions that such a thing as the Moses-Christ religion could
                > arise. It could only come right in the middle between East and West.
                > And whilst it could not take root over in the East where the idea of
                > God was that of a unity, but at a previous stage, it could assert
                > itself as the idea of a personal God, which Jehovah is and which
                > Christ is, among those people who already bore the feeling of
                > personality within themselves. Therefore it spread to the West, and
                > we see it meeting with understanding, when envisaged as the idea of a
                > God people could think of as a person. That is why we see it
                > developing in this way almost as a necessity just in this particular
                > belt. The feeling of personality was there, but it was still inward,
                > still spiritual, just as with the ancient Lemurians everything was
                > still spiritual, and the bodily nature was only developed to a small
                > degree. The bodily nature was certainly developed here, but the
                > personal element, which man prized so highly, was inward, and man
                > also wanted to conquer what was external by means of the inner being.
                > Thus it was here that they best understood a God who had the greatest
                > wealth of inner nature permeating his outer nature, namely the
                > Christ. In Europe everything was prepared for the Christ. And because
                > these were regions in which in earlier times men had not descended
                > entirely on to the earthly scene, and therefore some kind of last
                > remnants of spiritual perception existed, there was still something
                > remaining of the vision of spiritual beings, of the old European
                > clairvoyance."
                >
                >
                > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090503p01.html
                >
                > "These were the basic conditions necessary for the coming
                > civilisation that has developed roughly since the beginning of our
                > era. The ego had to reach a certain point of development, as it were,
                > but not overdo it in either direction. And it is our task today to
                > understand this in the right way. For all spiritual science has in a
                > certain respect to appeal to what we call the development of a higher
                > ego from out of the lower. When we look back over the ages we can
                > learn from the fact that certain sections of the earth's inhabitant's
                > did not find it possible to keep pace with earth evolution in the
                > development of their ego, how many mistakes can be made in regard to
                > the development of the higher ego out of the lower. In ancient
                > Atlantis, for instance, there were peoples who dropped out of the
                > earth population so to speak, and they became Red Indians. What would
                > they have said if they had been able to put the facts of their
                > development into words? They would have said: Above all I want to
                > develop my inner being, which I find to be the highest thing within
                > men when I look within myself. And they developed this ego so
                > strongly that it affected even the colour of their skin, and that is
                > how they became red. Their development led them into decadence. Among
                > the people of Atlantis in whom everything still went directly into
                > the body, these were the ones who cultivated what we might call inner
                > brooding upon the ego, and they were so to say convinced that they
                > could find within themselves everything that had to be developed. At
                > the other extreme were those people who said: Oh, the ego is of no
                > significance. The ego must lose itself entirely, it must dissolve
                > altogether, and only listen to what the outside world says! They did
                > not really say this, because they did not reflect in this manner. But
                > those are the peoples who denied their ego to such an extent that
                > they went black, because the external forces coming from the sun to
                > the earth made them so. Only those peoples that were capable of
                > holding the balance with regard to their ego could develop into the
                > future."
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Sheila, it's nice to hear from you.
                > >
                > > I've been placing together quotes stated by Dr. Steiner and I will
                > > post them here for us all to consider shortly. Dr. Steiner may
                > have
                > > been writing of 'Folks Souls' but he seems to be of some opinion
                > > regarding interracial mixing also. I'm still on route to grasp his
                > > views.
                > >
                > > Blessings,
                > > Chris.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:
                > > > >
                > > > > There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
                > > > > miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in
                > > order to
                > > > > advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
                > > this
                > > > > today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
                > > > > engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
                > > developing
                > > > > a revived form of clairvoyance.
                > > > >
                > > > > However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it
                > > becomes
                > > > > clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more
                > > advanced
                > > > > Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am
                > > running
                > > > > around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr.
                > > Steiner
                > > > > wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls
                > due
                > > in
                > > > > part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or
                > too
                > > slow
                > > > > after their decent out from Atlantis.
                > > > >
                > > > > He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
                > > > > ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
                > > > > example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
                > America
                > > who
                > > > > were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
                > > signifying
                > > > > the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations
                > which
                > > > > prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise,
                > > that
                > > > > the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had
                > > not
                > > > > yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught
                > how
                > > > > the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
                > > > > `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
                > > > > races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
                > > > > pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during
                > > pregnancy.
                > > > > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
                > > > > unclear.)
                > > > >
                > > > > Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                > taught
                > > we
                > > > > should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                > > quotes, or
                > > > > sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate
                > any
                > > help
                > > > > if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my
                > > question of
                > > > > whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
                > > > > correctly.
                > > > >
                > > > > What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
                > > > > internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
                > > > > translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                > from
                > > the
                > > > > books in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                > such
                > > a
                > > > > gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                > > clear I
                > > > > think, without all the going back and forth between views,
                > > > > translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks in advance,
                > > > > Chris.
                > > > >
                > > > Dear Chris and Friends,
                > > >
                > > > Fascinating concepts, Chris, and while I would also love to see a
                > > > short answer to all these points, I am not knowledgeable enough to
                > > > supply one, or for that matter, probably not even an
                > understandable
                > > > answer. It seems to me you might perhaps be referring to Steiner's
                > > > 1910 series of lectures known as "The Mission of the Individual
                > Folk
                > > > Souls" in which he indeed does delineate many points regarding the
                > > > varying races of the world as well as Archangels, Archai, Folk
                > > Souls,
                > > > etc. Included in with any explanation regarding these points
                > would
                > > be,
                > > > in my estimation, a working knowledge and deep understanding
                > > of "Kar.
                > > > Rel. III", also known as "The Karma of the Anthroposophical
                > > Movement".
                > > >
                > > > I can find nothing to suggest "miscegenation" in "Folk Souls" and
                > > > perhaps I am misinterpreting your interpretation of that concept,
                > > but
                > > > most certainly I find a working knowledge of mankind's advancement
                > > > through varying incarnations and, for myself, a deeper
                > understanding
                > > > of the enormous importance of attempting to discern one's own
                > > personal
                > > > "anthroposophical type", if I may describe this critical point as
                > > > such, which is so very important in my opinion.
                > > >
                > > > My translations are mostly all first ones, and therefore are the
                > > > originals, and I have been told by quite a few long time
                > > > Anthroposophists that "The Folk Souls" is a "bad translation",
                > > > whatever that means, but I have always had the impression that
                > > > description does not mean these lectures can be dismissed as
                > > > inaccurate in any way. For myself, I have always held them in
                > > abeyance
                > > > until certain points seem to have culminated into additional
                > > insights
                > > > and varying points. Due to historical events, Steiner wasn't able
                > to
                > > > write a Preface to this work until 1918, and I feel his Preface is
                > > > very helpful in understanding more thoroughly this specific work.
                > I
                > > > include it below as it is in my copy.
                > > >
                > >
                > ======================================================================
                > > > PREFACE
                > > > [Written in 1918 as an introduction to these lectures given in
                > > 1910.]
                > > > In these lectures, which were given in Christiania (Oslo) in June
                > > > 1910, I ventured to give a sketch of the psychology of the
                > > development
                > > > of peoples. The lectures are based upon the teachings of
                > > Anthroposophy
                > > > which can be found in my books "Theosophy", "Occult Science - an
                > > > Outline", "Riddles of Man", "Riddles of the Soul", etc. I was
                > able
                > > to
                > > > build upon this foundation because my hearers were familiar with
                > the
                > > > scientific views which are presented in my publications. That is
                > the
                > > > external reason for the choice of my point of view; there is
                > > however a
                > > > further reason, an inner reason. The orthodox study of
                > > anthroposophy,
                > > > ethmology, or even history, cannot provide an adequate framework
                > > for a
                > > > true psychology of the various folk characters. Neither the
                > > > information provided by orthodox science, nor the study of
                > anatomy
                > > and
                > > > physiology suffice for an understanding of the psychic life of
                > man.
                > > If
                > > > we wish to understand the inner life of an individual we must
                > study
                > > > the soul as well as the body, and if we desire to gain real
                > insight
                > > > into national characteristics we must explore the psychic and
                > > > spiritual element underlying them. This psychic and spiritual
                > > element,
                > > > however, reflects not merely the activity of individual human
                > souls
                > > > working in concert, but has its origin in a higher order. The
                > higher
                > > > spiritual element is a province in which modern science is a total
                > > > stranger. Before the bar of science it is paradoxical to speak of
                > > Folk
                > > > Spirits as real entities in the sense that we speak of the
                > reality
                > > of
                > > > thinking, feeling and willing in individual human beings; and it
                > is
                > > > equally paradoxical to relate the evolution of peoples on earth
                > to
                > > the
                > > > forces of the heavenly bodies in space. But the matter ceases to
                > be
                > > > paradoxical if we recall that one does not look for the forces
                > which
                > > > determine the north-south direction of a magnetic needle in the
                > > needle
                > > > itself. One attributes the deflectionof the needle to the effect
                > of
                > > > the earth's magnetic field but looks to the cosmis for the causes
                > of
                > > > this deflection. Shall we not therefore have to seek the reasons
                > for
                > > > the development of folk characters, fokd migrations, etc. in the
                > > > cosmos outside the peoples themselves? Apart from the
                > > anthroposophical
                > > > view which considers higher spiritual Beings to be a reality, a
                > > > totally new element is introduced into these lectures which sees a
                > > > higher spiritual reality behind the evolution of peoples and
                > seeds
                > > the
                > > > forces which direct this evolution in this spiritual reality. We
                > > then
                > > > investigate the facts which are manifested in the life of the
                > > peoples
                > > > and we find that these facts become intelligible on this basis.
                > The
                > > > conditions in the life of the various peoples, as well as their
                > > mutual
                > > > relationships, can thus be clearly understood, whereas without
                > this
                > > > basis there can be no true understanding of this approach. Either
                > > one
                > > > must seek a basis for the psychology of peoples in a spiritual
                > > reality
                > > > or one must abandon such a psychology in toto.
                > > > I have not hesitated to use the traditional names of the
                > early
                > > > centuries of Christianity to describe the higher spiritual
                > beings.
                > > An
                > > > Oriental would choose other names. Nevertheless, although the use
                > of
                > > > this terminology may be regarded as rather unscientific today,
                > there
                > > > seems to be no reason to fight shy of it. In the first place, we
                > > > thereby acknowledge the essentially Christian character of our
                > > Western
                > > > civilization, and secondly, if entirely new names were chosen, or
                > if
                > > > an oriental terminology were adopted whose real meaning could
                > only
                > > be
                > > > fully comprehended by one who is spiritually at home in that
                > > > civilization, we should be in dange of misapprehension. It seems
                > to
                > > me
                > > > that whoever wishes to investigate these spiritual relationships,
                > > > assuming he does not reject our whole approach, will not object to
                > > > names such as Angels, Archangels, Thrones, etc. any more than
                > > physical
                > > > science objects to terms such as positive and negative
                > electricity,
                > > > magnetism, polorized light, etc.
                > > > Whoever relates the content of my earlier lectures to the
                > > painful
                > > > trials of mankind at the present time will find that what I then
                > > said
                > > > throws a flood of light upon what is taking place now. {February
                > > 1918}
                > > > Were I to give these lectures now you could well imagine that in
                > the
                > > > light of the present world situation these earlier investigations
                > > were
                > > > a necessity. Thus for example on one page of the first lecture you
                > > > will find the following passage: "...we have every reason,
                > > especially
                > > > at the present time, to speak quite impartially about the mission
                > of
                > > > the individual Folk Souls. Just as it was justifiable to maintain
                > > > complete silence about their mission hitherto, so it is in order
                > > today
                > > > to begin to speak of this mission. This is particularly important
                > > > because the destiny of mankind in the near future will bring men
                > > > together in far greater measure than has hitherto been the case in
                > > > order to fulfill a mission common to all mankind. But the members
                > of
                > > > the individual peoples will only be able to offer their proper,
                > free
                > > > and positive contributions if they have, above all, an
                > understanding
                > > > of their ethnic origin, an understanding for what we might
                > call 'the
                > > > self knowledge of the folk'." No doubt the time has now come when
                > > the
                > > > fate of humanity itself demonstrates the truth of this view.
                > > > Perhaps it is precisely the theme of the "Folk Souls" which
                > > shows
                > > > how spiritual investigation which penetrates into the
                > supersensible
                > > > reality of existence provides at the same time a practical view of
                > > > life which also throws light upon the most diverse problems of
                > life.
                > > > This is not possible for a view of life which only uses such
                > > > concepts as are valid in the sphere of natural science in order to
                > > > describe the nature and development of peoples. This
                > > > mechanical-physical science has been highly successful in
                > exploiting
                > > > the mechanical, physical and chemical resources for the benefit of
                > > > civilization; but in order to promote the spiritual life of
                > mankind
                > > we
                > > > need a science which is spiritually orientated. Such a science is
                > > the
                > > > first demand of our age.
                > > > Berlin, 8th February, 1918 Rudolf Steiner
                > > >
                > >
                > ======================================================================
                > >
                > > > I so hope Steiner's "Preface" might prove to lead to greater
                > > > comprehension of this work. In many other Steiner works I have
                > found
                > > > follow-ups or deeper understandings to many of the points found in
                > > > this work, but as with all of Steiner's works, its scope is
                > > incredibly
                > > > vast. This work would be fascinating to discuss, Chris and
                > Friends.
                > > >
                > > > Blessings,
                > > > Sheila
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Durward Starman
                ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it s important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.
                   
                     Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that races as we have known them will become of less and less importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.
                   
                     So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the need for endogamy is long over.
                   
                    For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                   
                     As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're Caucasian, etc.
                   
                  -Starman




                  To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                  From: christopherraymond_bio@...
                  Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000
                  Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?

                  The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between races:

                  There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal how
                  miscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order to
                  advance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret this
                  today, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could be
                  engaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into developing
                  a revived form of clairvoyance.

                  However, when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomes
                  clear how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advanced
                  Souls, or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am running
                  around in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steiner
                  wrote about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due in
                  part to the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slow
                  after their decent out from Atlantis.

                  He also taught details regarding the color of the skin and the
                  ability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past the skin. For
                  example he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of America who
                  were the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color; signifying
                  the Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain limitations which
                  prevented them from bearing the new fruits to come. Likewise, that
                  the Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly and had not
                  yet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner taught how
                  the races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather be
                  `consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence, these
                  races currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference to
                  pregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                  (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I am
                  unclear.)

                  Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner taught we
                  should perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the quotes, or
                  sources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd appreciate any help
                  if any of you are already aware of the short answer to my question of
                  whether this practice should be encouraged, if to be understood
                  correctly.

                  What I've read in the Steiner source books and on the
                  internet sources, there are some slightly differences in the
                  translations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ from the
                  books in some form in places. However, this can not explain such a
                  gap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made clear I
                  think, without all the going back and forth between views,
                  translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.

                  Thanks in advance,
                  Chris.




                  Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
                • Durward Starman
                  ... *******I ve never heard of that quote, and I can t find it at that link. Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment



                    >Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
                    actual readings:
                    http://sociologyeso science.com/ esoterica/ cbooks1.html
                    "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
                    years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
                    people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
                    without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
                    reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)
                     
                    *******This was a reading given early in Cayce's career when his father, a violent racist, conducted the readings. Cayce's stenographer, Gladys Davis Turner, said she felt that it was his influence on the unconscious Cayce that resulted in this insult --- which was, by the way, contradicted by many, many statements throughout the rest of Cayce's career after his father was removed from his position as conductor for secretly getting information on horse races for friends. This is why it's not just that anthroposophy is 'better' in some vague way that trance psychics, but specifically they are open to all sorts of suggestion and influence. The readings praising Hitler were done in a house full of Germans, for instance.
                     


                    >Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
                    http://www.ciis. edu/cayce/ Smith.html

                    "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)
                     
                    *******I've never heard of that quote, and I can't find it at that link.
                     
                     


                    Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
                    http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ Dates/19101228p0 1.html and before we
                    discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
                    directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
                    Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)
                    "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
                    and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
                    the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
                    being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
                    discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
                    astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
                    to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
                    Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
                    the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
                    philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
                    older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
                    opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
                    in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
                    that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
                    here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
                    coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
                    negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
                    characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
                    expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
                    calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
                    a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
                    preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
                    the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
                    Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
                    value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
                    nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
                    essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
                    soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
                    whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
                    only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
                    culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
                    opening up a wide vista into the future."
                     
                     
                    *******If you study about 'young' and 'old' souls, you'll find that Dr. Steiner was not implying the one is good and the other bad. He says the young souls bring a new, fresh impulse into the world. In his Mystery Plays, he portrays them as Dr. Strader and Professor Capesius, and each has his area of weakness.
                       Look at how the Negro brought a new vitality into European music, for instance. It certainly can't be said to be all good (God, I'm sick of hearing rap 'music'!), but no one would say it was all bad, either.
                     


                    >We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
                    transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
                    the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
                    skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
                    a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
                    the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
                    lacking in genes.
                    Dr. Steiner mentioned:
                    "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
                    must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
                    were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
                    perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
                    form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."
                    In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
                    processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
                    Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
                    skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
                    recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
                    This is already known to biology today.
                    Blessings,
                    Chris
                     
                    *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends race, not race anymore.
                     
                    -Starman


                    Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try now!
                  • christopherraymond_bio
                    Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro novels giving birth
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Duward,
                      You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
                      Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
                      novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
                      feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                      it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                      to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                      norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                      intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                      clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                      resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                      through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
                      miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
                      preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
                      skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
                      danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
                      blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
                      intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
                      miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
                      becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
                      turning toward spiritual science?

                      The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
                      bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
                      areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
                      could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
                      living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
                      experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                      materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                      uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                      bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
                      Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
                      so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                      rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                      occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                      here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                      should experience what is required.

                      If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
                      cultural development as much either, what do you think?





                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
                      many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
                      the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
                      in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
                      Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
                      century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
                      people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
                      basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
                      worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
                      also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
                      subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
                      animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
                      a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
                      act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
                      of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
                      the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
                      with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
                      that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
                      grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
                      Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
                      group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
                      influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
                      many types of blood, for instance.
                      >
                      > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
                      studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
                      longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
                      blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
                      It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
                      that races as we have known them will become of less and less
                      importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
                      distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
                      and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
                      less.
                      >
                      > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
                      was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                      actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                      clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                      need for endogamy is long over.
                      >
                      > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
                      is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
                      learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
                      inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
                      completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
                      anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
                      enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
                      is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                      >
                      > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
                      and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
                      no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
                      them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
                      Caucasian, etc.
                      >
                      > -Starman
                      >
                      >
                      > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
                      20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
                      >
                      >
                      > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
                      races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
                      howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
                      toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
                      thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
                      beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
                      developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
                      teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
                      are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
                      with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
                      trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
                      Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
                      people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
                      decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
                      of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
                      the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
                      America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
                      signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                      limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                      Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                      and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                      taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                      be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                      theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                      topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                      (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                      amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                      taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                      quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                      appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                      answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                      if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                      books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                      in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                      from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                      such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                      clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                      views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                      Thanks in advance,Chris.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
                      scramble challenge with star power.
                      > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
                      icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                      >
                    • christopherraymond_bio
                      *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
                        replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
                        science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
                        think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
                        race, not race anymore. "

                        I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
                        be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
                        we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
                        allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
                        path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
                        fulfill that requirement in that body?
                      • Durward Starman
                        *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                           
                             Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                           
                           "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                          through spiritual science."
                           
                              The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                           
                             I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                           
                             Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
                           
                             I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
                           
                             Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
                           
                             But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
                           
                             These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                           
                             Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
                           
                             I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                           
                             But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
                           
                             Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                           
                             But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

                          Starman
                          www.DrStarman.com



                          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                          From: christopherraymond_bio@...
                          Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
                          Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

                          Duward,
                          You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
                          Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
                          novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
                          feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                          it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                          to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                          norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                          intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                          through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
                          miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
                          preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
                          skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
                          danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
                          blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
                          intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
                          miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
                          becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
                          turning toward spiritual science?

                          The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
                          bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
                          areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
                          could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
                          living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
                          experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                          materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                          uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                          bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
                          Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
                          so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                          rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                          occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                          here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                          should experience what is required.

                          If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
                          cultural development as much either, what do you think?

                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
                          many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
                          the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
                          in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
                          Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
                          century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
                          people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
                          basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
                          worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
                          also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
                          subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
                          animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
                          a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
                          act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
                          of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
                          the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
                          with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
                          that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
                          grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
                          Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
                          group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
                          influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
                          many types of blood, for instance.
                          >
                          > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
                          studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
                          longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
                          blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
                          It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
                          that races as we have known them will become of less and less
                          importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
                          distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
                          and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
                          less.
                          >
                          > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
                          was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                          actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                          clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                          need for endogamy is long over.
                          >
                          > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
                          is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
                          learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
                          inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
                          completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
                          anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
                          enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
                          is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
                          >
                          > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
                          and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
                          no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
                          them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
                          Caucasian, etc.
                          >
                          > -Starman
                          >
                          >
                          > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
                          20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
                          >
                          >
                          > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
                          races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
                          howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
                          toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
                          thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
                          beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
                          developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
                          teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
                          are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
                          with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
                          trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
                          Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
                          people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
                          decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
                          of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
                          the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
                          America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
                          signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                          limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                          Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                          and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                          taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                          be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                          theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                          topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                          (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                          amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                          taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                          quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                          appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                          answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                          if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
                          books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                          in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                          from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                          such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                          clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                          views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                          Thanks in advance,Chris.
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          .



                          Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
                        • christopherraymond_bio
                          Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                            did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                            mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                            Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                            discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                            have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                            him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                            any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                            through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                            it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                            sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

                            "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                            you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                            you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                            people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                            miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                            of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                            marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                            like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                            to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

                            Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                            several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                            statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                            School in Stuttgart":

                            "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                            more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                            exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                            not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                            human race...They are very different from human beings where
                            spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                            sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                            there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                            would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                            are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                            there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                            enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                            particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                            human form.

                            "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                            already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                            frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                            professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                            death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                            "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                            36-37)

                            After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                            further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                            agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                            past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                            have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                            I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                            just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                            absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                            me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                            poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                            matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                            teaching that I find discouraging.

                            Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                            cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                            has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                            happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                            daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                            hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                            miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                            voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                            bigot.

                            To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                            What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                            reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                            racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                            should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                            but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                            profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                            companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                            certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                            is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                            this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                            regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

                            > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                            disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                            future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                            associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                            exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                            actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

                            Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                            experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

                            This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

                            "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                            [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                            dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                            they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                            science."

                            However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                            blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                            no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                            of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                            to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                            it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                            and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                            honest question.

                            Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                            of WWI":

                            "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                            spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                            white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                            within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                            the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                            that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                            by the four other cultural epochs".

                            "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                            impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                            the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                            clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                            spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                            in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                            the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                            demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                            skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                            do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

                            Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                            acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                            introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                            again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                            into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                            seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                            most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                            opinion.

                            "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                            expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                            little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                            to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                            race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                            is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                            culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                            sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                            I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                            earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                            cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                            to culturally, indeed. "

                            First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                            In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                            insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                            from "Health and Illness in 1922:

                            "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                            give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                            to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                            blood children will be born in Europe"

                            Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                            investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                            washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                            racist.

                            "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                            bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                            tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                            to me. Definitions, please."

                            "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                            The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                            not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                            differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                            different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                            But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                            only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                            Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                            Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                            development."

                            Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

                            "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                            millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                            come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                            cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                            surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                            many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                            brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                            that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                            the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                            because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                            could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                            necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

                            Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                            the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                            http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

                            "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                            until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                            suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                            already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                            reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                            physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                            incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                            genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                            observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                            among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                            already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                            uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                            reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                            Mill put it (7).

                            "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                            positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                            experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                            music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                            blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                            even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                            passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                            Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                            CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                            allowed to be so confused. "

                            Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                            might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                            blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                            another.












                            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                            you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                            you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                            people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                            miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                            of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                            marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                            like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                            to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                            >
                            > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                            physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                            is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                            reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                            >
                            > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                            clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                            resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                            through spiritual science."
                            >
                            > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                            become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                            then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                            Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                            in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                            clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                            endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                            same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                            into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                            (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                            whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                            does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                            Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                            worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                            white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                            yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                            focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                            interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                            1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                            has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                            >
                            > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                            disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                            future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                            associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                            exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                            actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                            >
                            > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                            expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                            little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                            to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                            race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                            is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                            culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                            sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                            I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                            earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                            cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                            to culturally, indeed.
                            >
                            > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                            bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                            tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                            to me. Definitions, please.
                            >
                            > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                            The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                            not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                            differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                            different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                            But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                            only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                            Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                            Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                            development.
                            >
                            > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                            individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                            astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                            incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                            formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                            that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                            approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                            soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                            Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                            very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                            black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                            Malcolm X.
                            >
                            > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                            being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                            third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                            whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                            >
                            > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                            ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                            souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                            in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                            encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                            culture just as much as old ones.
                            >
                            > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                            nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                            spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                            >
                            > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                            positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                            experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                            music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                            blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                            even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                            passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                            Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                            CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                            allowed to be so confused.
                            >
                            > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                            science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                            is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                            here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                            because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                            year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                            Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                            problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                            manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                            so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                            dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                            countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                            souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                            >
                            > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                            born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                            here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                            civilization.
                            > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                            >
                            >
                            > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                            01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                            >
                            >
                            > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                            why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                            Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                            not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                            it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                            to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                            norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                            intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                            clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                            resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                            through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                            is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                            contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                            hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                            the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                            miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                            spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                            encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                            materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                            spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                            Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                            incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                            elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                            suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                            those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                            materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                            uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                            bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                            came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                            should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                            rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                            occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                            here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                            should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                            miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                            either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                            Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                            one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                            approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                            described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                            in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                            lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                            remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                            superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                            Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                            made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                            racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                            way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                            not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                            the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                            or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                            strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                            accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                            into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                            of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                            touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                            the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                            one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                            a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                            Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                            ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                            now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                            foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                            become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                            races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                            as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                            future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                            more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                            > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                            something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                            actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                            clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                            need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                            to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                            science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                            over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                            seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                            tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                            soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                            from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                            not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                            blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                            Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                            incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                            when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                            christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                            [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                            mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                            Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                            clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                            how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                            implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                            ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                            when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                            how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                            or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                            in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                            about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                            the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                            their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                            color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                            past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                            Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                            in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                            limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                            Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                            and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                            taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                            be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                            theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                            topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                            (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                            amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                            taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                            quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                            appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                            answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                            if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                            books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                            in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                            from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                            such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                            clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                            views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                            Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                            > .
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
                            scramble challenge with star power.
                            > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
                            icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                            >
                          • Durward Starman
                            ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment


                              >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                              did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
                               
                              *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
                               
                               
                               
                              >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                               
                              *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



                              >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                              cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                               
                               
                              ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



                               Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                              "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                              give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                              to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                              blood children will be born in Europe"
                              Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                              investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                              washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                              racist.

                              ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                                  I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


                              >  Each spirit is an
                              individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                              astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                              incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                              formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                              that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                              approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                              soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                              Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                              very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
                              black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                              viz., Malcolm X.
                              > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                              being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                              third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                              whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                              > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                              nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                              spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
                               
                              Starman
                              www.DrStarma n.com

                              .



                              Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
                            • christopherraymond_bio
                              Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
                                hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
                                However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
                                quoted:

                                "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
                                become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
                                it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

                                Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
                                here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
                                races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
                                to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
                                he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
                                races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
                                if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

                                When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
                                having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
                                were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
                                early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
                                other statements about the Mongols.

                                I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
                                something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
                                races', I think.
                                Chris.



                                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
                                question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
                                >
                                > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
                                post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
                                even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
                                another.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                                >
                                > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
                                > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                                cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                                >
                                >
                                > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
                                without having to have black fathers.
                                > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
                                convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
                                them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
                                Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
                                children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
                                say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
                                and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
                                angle in claiming he was a racist.
                                > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
                                shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
                                spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
                                stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
                                with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
                                kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
                                essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
                                can.
                                > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
                                is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
                                comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
                                bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
                                But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
                                That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
                                soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
                                an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
                                culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
                                skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
                                a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
                                school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
                                spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
                                moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                                > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
                                avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
                                things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
                                > www.DrStarman.com
                                > .
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > _________________________________________________________________
                                > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
                                scramble challenge with star power.
                                > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
                                icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                                >
                              • happypick2000
                                Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
                                Message 15 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                                  Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                                  simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                                  important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                                  inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                                  discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                                  existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                                  Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                                  be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                                  else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                                  consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                                  accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                                  definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                                  cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                                  This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                                  our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                                  so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                                  cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                                  such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                                  beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                                  impasse.

                                  Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                                  the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                                  haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                                  the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                                  mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                                  Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                                  spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                                  Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                                  plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                                  to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                                  perhaps as an etheric human?

                                  We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                                  we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                                  to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                                  actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                                  important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                                  Blessings,
                                  Sheila

                                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                                  <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                                  > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                                  > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                                  > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                                  > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                                  > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                                  > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                                  > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                                  > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                                  > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                                  > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                                  >
                                  > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                                  > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                                  > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                                  > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                                  > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                                  > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                                  > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                                  > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                                  > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                                  >
                                  > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                                  > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                                  > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                                  > School in Stuttgart":
                                  >
                                  > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                                  > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                                  > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                                  > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                                  > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                                  > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                                  > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                                  > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                                  > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                                  > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                                  > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                                  > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                                  > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                                  > human form.
                                  >
                                  > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                                  > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                                  > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                                  > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                                  > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                                  > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                                  > 36-37)
                                  >
                                  > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                                  > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                                  > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                                  > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                                  > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                                  > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                                  > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                                  > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                                  > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                                  > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                                  > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                                  > teaching that I find discouraging.
                                  >
                                  > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                                  > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                                  > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                                  > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                                  > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                                  > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                                  > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                                  > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                                  > bigot.
                                  >
                                  > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                                  > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                                  > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                                  > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                                  > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                                  > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                                  > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                                  > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                                  > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                                  > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                                  > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                                  > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                                  >
                                  > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                                  > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                                  > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                                  > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                                  > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                                  > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                                  >
                                  > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                                  > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                                  >
                                  > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                                  >
                                  > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                                  > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                                  > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                                  > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                                  > science."
                                  >
                                  > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                                  > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                                  > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                                  > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                                  > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                                  > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                                  > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                                  > honest question.
                                  >
                                  > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                                  > of WWI":
                                  >
                                  > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                                  > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                                  > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                                  > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                                  > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                                  > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                                  > by the four other cultural epochs".
                                  >
                                  > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                                  > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                                  > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                                  > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                                  > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                                  > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                                  > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                                  > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                                  > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                                  > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                                  >
                                  > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                                  > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                                  > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                                  > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                                  > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                                  > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                                  > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                                  > opinion.
                                  >
                                  > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                                  > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                                  > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                                  > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                                  > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                                  > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                                  > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                                  > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                                  > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                                  > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                                  > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                                  > to culturally, indeed. "
                                  >
                                  > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                                  > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                                  > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                                  > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                                  >
                                  > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                                  > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                                  > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                                  > blood children will be born in Europe"
                                  >
                                  > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                                  > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                                  > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                                  > racist.
                                  >
                                  > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                                  > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                                  > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                                  > to me. Definitions, please."
                                  >
                                  > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                                  > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                                  > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                                  > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                                  > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                                  > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                                  > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                                  > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                                  > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                                  > development."
                                  >
                                  > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                                  >
                                  > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                                  > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                                  > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                                  > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                                  > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                                  > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                                  > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                                  > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                                  > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                                  > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                                  > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                                  > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                                  >
                                  > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                                  > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                                  > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                                  >
                                  > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                                  > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                                  > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                                  > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                                  > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                                  > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                                  > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                                  > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                                  > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                                  > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                                  > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                                  > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                                  > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                                  > Mill put it (7).
                                  >
                                  > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                                  > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                                  > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                                  > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                                  > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                                  > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                                  > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                                  > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                                  > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                                  > allowed to be so confused. "
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                                  > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                                  > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                                  > another.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                                  > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                                  > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                                  > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                                  > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                                  > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                                  > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                                  > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                                  > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                                  > >
                                  > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                                  > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                                  > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                                  > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                                  > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                                  > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                                  > through spiritual science."
                                  > >
                                  > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                                  > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                                  > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                                  > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                                  > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                                  > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                                  > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                                  > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                                  > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                                  > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                                  > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                                  > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                                  > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                                  > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                                  > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                                  > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                                  > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                                  > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                                  > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                                  > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                                  > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                                  > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                                  > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                                  > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                                  > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                                  > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                                  > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                                  > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                                  > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                                  > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                                  > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                                  > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                                  > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                                  > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                                  > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                                  > to culturally, indeed.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                                  > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                                  > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                                  > to me. Definitions, please.
                                  > >
                                  > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                                  > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                                  > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                                  > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                                  > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                                  > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                                  > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                                  > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                                  > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                                  > development.
                                  > >
                                  > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                                  > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                                  > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                                  > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                                  > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                                  > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                                  > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                                  > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                                  > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                                  > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                                  > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                                  > Malcolm X.
                                  > >
                                  > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                                  > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                                  > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                                  > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                                  > >
                                  > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                                  > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                                  > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                                  > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                                  > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                                  > culture just as much as old ones.
                                  > >
                                  > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                                  > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                                  > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                                  > >
                                  > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                                  > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                                  > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                                  > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                                  > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                                  > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                                  > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                                  > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                                  > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                                  > allowed to be so confused.
                                  > >
                                  > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                                  > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                                  > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                                  > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                                  > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                                  > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                                  > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                                  > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                                  > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                                  > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                                  > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                                  > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                                  > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                                  > >
                                  > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                                  > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                                  > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                                  > civilization.
                                  > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                                  > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                                  > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                                  > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                                  > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                                  > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                                  > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                                  > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                                  > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                                  > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                                  > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                                  > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                                  > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                                  > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                                  > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                                  > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                                  > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                                  > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                                  > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                                  > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                                  > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                                  > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                                  > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                                  > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                                  > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                                  > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                                  > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                                  > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                                  > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                                  > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                                  > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                                  > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                                  > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                                  > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                                  > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                                  > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                                  > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                                  > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                                  > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                                  > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                                  > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                                  > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                                  > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                                  > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                                  > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                                  > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                                  > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                                  > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                                  > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                                  > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                                  > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                                  > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                                  > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                                  > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                                  > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                                  > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                                  > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                                  > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                                  > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                                  > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                                  > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                                  > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                                  > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                                  > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                                  > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                                  > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                                  > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                                  > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                                  > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                                  > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                                  > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                                  > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                                  > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                                  > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                                  > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                                  > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                                  > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                                  > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                                  > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                                  > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                                  > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                                  > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                                  > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                                  > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                                  > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                                  > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                                  > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                                  > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                                  > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                                  > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                                  > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                                  > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                                  > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                                  > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                                  > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                                  > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                                  > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                                  > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                                  > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                                  > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                                  > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                                  > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                                  > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                                  > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                                  > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                                  > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                                  > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                                  > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                                  > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                                  > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                                  > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                                  > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                                  > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                                  > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                                  > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                                  > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                                  > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                                  > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                                  > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                                  > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                                  > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                                  > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                                  > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                                  > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                                  > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                                  > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                                  > > .
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > _________________________________________________________________
                                  > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
                                  > scramble challenge with star power.
                                  > > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
                                  > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                                  > >
                                  >
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.