Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: upside-down 3folding

Expand Messages
  • Charlie Morrison
    ... Hi Robert and all I had just finished listening to the second quote virtually minutes before reading your post to Tom. It aroused my curiosity so I had a
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 8, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
      > To Charlie M., who quoted RS:
      > >>"The whole of this living complex of
      > processes that begin with man's relation to
      > nature and continue down to the point where
      > nature's products are ready for consumption -
      > these processes and these alone comprise, for a
      > healthy social organism, its economic system.
      > It occupies there somewhat the same place as
      > that taken in the human organism by the head
      > system, which conditions the individuals
      > abilities. But the head system is dependent on
      > the lung-and-heart system, in the same way the
      > economic system is dependent on the service of
      > human labor. The head, however, cannot by
      > itself regulate the breathing, and neither
      > should the system of human labor-power be
      > regulated by the forces that operate within the
      > economic life itself."<<
      > And:
      > >>From "The Challenge of the Times" "3. The
      > Mechanistic, Eugenic and
      > Hygienic Aspects of the Future (December 1,
      > 1918)"
      > >>"...you do not understand Greek culture if
      > you do not know that the situation was such:
      > that the merely metabolic life which is
      > expressed externally as the econonic [sic]
      > structure still remained instinctive; inner and
      > without the need of external reflection..."<<
      > >>Charlie:
      > I consider it a pointless exercise to tie the
      > three members of society to the three members
      > of the individual, these things are always in
      > movement. Also its a bit like asking the
      > question: which is the most spiritual, the head
      > or the limbs?<<
      > Robert writes:
      > I'm guessing that you juxtaposed those two
      > Steiner-saids because they seem contradictory
      > and thus seem to prove the "pointlessness" of
      > the "exercise"? Something like that?
      > But there is no contradiction: In the second
      > quote "the merely metabolic life" is in the
      > individual, inner man, not in the social
      > organism. In the context that surrounds that
      > quote RS explains how "Men will today
      > instinctively that what the human being is IN
      > HIMSELF shall be REFLECTED in the social
      > structure" (my emphasis). This "will" to
      > "reflect" started only in the 3rd Post-Atlantean
      > Epoch, when the INNER "head" was reflected in
      > the outer social organism as culture, as a
      > theocracy permeated by religion; the "breast"
      > and the "metabolism" remained merely "inner";
      > they were un-institutionalized, instinctive and
      > unconscious in the social structure. In the 4th
      > (Greco-Roman) Epoch this "reflection"
      > progressed so that the inner "breast" was also
      > reflected outwardly-socially, in the
      > institutions of law and justice. In our 5th
      > Epoch this process of "reflection" progresses
      > so that now the INNER "metabolic" man "wills"
      > to be OUTWARDLY reflected as a socially
      > organized economy.
      > Steiner was saying that the ancient Greek
      > economic life, with its slavery and so on, was
      > still "inner", instinctive; it was not
      > reflected in the outer, social world as a
      > consciously organized economy. He was NOT
      > saying that the economic life was "metabolic"
      > for the social organism. The "economy", i.e.
      > the supplying of the material basis of life, is
      > indeed "metabolic" for the inner, individual
      > man -- but the economy does not supply life for
      > the outer, social organism. Just the opposite:
      > the economy brings death forces into the social
      > organism. What is "metabolic" in the inner man
      > becomes anti-life when it is REFLECTED in the
      > outer society. -- Thus, the inner man is
      > inverted, as it were, when his 3fold organism
      > is reflected in the outer social organism, as I
      > outlined in my previous post.
      > And again: There is a larger "point" to this
      > exercise: to understand what brings life and
      > what brings death to the social organism.
      > Robert Mason

      Hi Robert and all

      I had just finished listening to the second quote virtually minutes
      before reading your post to Tom. It aroused my curiosity so I had a
      quick look through my books for any relevant passages and found the
      first quote. I usually like time to think things through before I post
      anything but on this occasion I sent it without too much thought. I
      could see that things were more complex than were shown by a table
      linking the threefold social order with the threefold human.

      "Pointless" wasn't a very good word to use, as I do think that there
      is a point to make in linking them if there is a clear explanation of
      how they relate. And besides, why did I then continue thinking about
      the relationship if I thought that it was pointless? So I'll retract
      that statement.

      To me its a bit like Mike's dancer. I can see that the rights sphere
      with its emphasis on equality keeps the balance between the freedom of
      the cultural sphere and the necessities of the economic sphere. But
      the other two seem to flip round depending on how I look at them. I
      agree with you that economic sphere brings death to a community
      without the life-giving forces of the spiritual sphere. But I also see
      the movement of commodities in, out and around a community, as being
      very like the metabolism of the individual. The dancer's just flipped

      (By the way I saw the dancer going clockwise. To start with, the only
      way I could get her to change direction was to focus in on her lower
      foot by shielding the rest of her body with my hand. I then imagined
      her toes to be moving towards me as her foot flipped from left to
      right. Of course as soon as I looked away and then back she had
      reverted to spinning clockwise.)

      It seems your point of view would have been endorsed by Karl Konig,
      "Our skull is the image of the earth onto which we descend. The brain
      within the skull is the fully-developed economic life..." (Man as a
      Social Being, P255)

      Charlie M.
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.