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Re: Gulags for Anthros?

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  • christopherraymond_bio
    Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom, it is temporal freedom
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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      Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants
      less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom, it
      is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
      what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
      Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than does
      the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
      appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
      travel into America today and this must reflect something more than
      "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
      Constitution.

      I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
      French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be forced
      upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my obligations
      are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I am
      behaving myself.

      I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics, business,
      banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many socialists
      are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-called
      republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada is in
      shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this to
      it being a socialist nation and having too much government
      involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of drugs
      sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
      themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
      government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they still
      call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-enterprise.
      When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
      things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
      acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur and
      all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong" and
      not titles.

      Chris

      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
      >

      >
      > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
      >
      > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
      > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law. But at
      > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
      > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-Canada,
      > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid violence
      > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
      > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and free
      > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we know who
      > the victor will be.
      >
      > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants with pitch
      > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the working man
      > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them Lenin,
      > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The German beer
      > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance, good
      > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny was all
      > that followed.
      >
      > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be pulled
      > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution ends. Our
      > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct motives, and
      > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our revolution
      > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
      > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
      >
      > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of jail, and
      > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse working
      > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you or I
      > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
      > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Mathew,
      > >
      > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit and
      > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
      > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
      > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
      > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep these
      > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are often
      > > closely linked together.
      > >
      > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical Movement
      > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is aware
      > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman Cannot Law",
      > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in place
      > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common Law or
      > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the Constitution
      > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
      > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can show
      > > YOU the law.
      > >
      > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land" is
      > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of America".
      > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
      > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
      > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
      > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many people are
      > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why on the
      > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank Note, or
      > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as in
      > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is why,
      > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
      > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government assumes
      > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in mind also,
      > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any debt, or
      > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay goes
      > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the Founding
      > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with blood. I
      > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the words of
      > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America and
      > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
      > >
      > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
      > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but to be
      > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax without
      > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
      > > servants and NOT free men.
      > >
      > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further and
      > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income tax for
      > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that they are
      > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in place
      > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail here but
      > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy, or a
      > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
      > >
      > > Chris
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
      > > >
      > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
      > > >
      > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
      > > >
      > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
      > > >
      > > > > [brackets mine]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
      > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
      > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
      > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
      > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
      > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
      > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
      > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
      > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
      > > > dies.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
      > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized
      > by
      > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
      > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
      > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
      > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
      > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
      > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
      > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
      > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
      > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
      > > > > control of ideas.<<
      > > > >
      > > > > Robert writes:
      > > > >
      > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
      > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
      > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
      > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
      > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
      > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
      > > > > flood it with disinformation.
      > > > >
      > > > > Matthew wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
      > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
      > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
      > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
      > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
      > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
      > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
      > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
      > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
      > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
      > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
      > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
      > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
      > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
      > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
      > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
      > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
      > > > > opposite is true.<<
      > > > >
      > > > > Robert writes:
      > > > >
      > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
      > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
      > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
      > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
      > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
      > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
      > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
      > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
      > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
      > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
      > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
      > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
      > > > >
      > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
      > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
      > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
      > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
      > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
      > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
      > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
      > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
      > > > >
      > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
      > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
      > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
      > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
      > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
      > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
      > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
      > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
      > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
      > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
      > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
      > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
      > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
      > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
      > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
      > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
      > > > > way?
      > > > >
      > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
      > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
      > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
      > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
      > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
      > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
      > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
      > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
      > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
      > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
      > > > >
      > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
      > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
      > > > >
      > > > > Robert Mason
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________\
      > \
      > > > ____________
      > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
      > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
      > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Mathew Morrell
      Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but not necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything positive or inspiring.
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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        Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but not
        necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything
        positive or inspiring. Mostly, political discussions have diverted
        from our central aim to delve into Rudolph Steiner's vision of
        spiritual science--- not to provide a forum to endlessly exercise our
        personal demons. Politics never seizes to drive wedges between
        people who would otherwise be friends.

        It is our semi-restriction on politics (especially America bashing)
        that makes this forum unique from every other Rudolph Steiner forum
        on the Internet. Our forum is also the least popular.

        Just to avoid any misconceptions in the future, let me add that I'm
        not really a Socialist, per se. I consider myself a "light"
        socialist, meaning I believe in strong, socialistic programs (like
        Social Security and FAFSA) that benefit society as a whole without
        making the people dependent on big government. In fact, most
        members here would consider me a "right winger".




        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants
        > less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom,
        it
        > is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
        > what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
        > Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than does
        > the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
        > appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
        > travel into America today and this must reflect something more than
        > "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
        > Constitution.
        >
        > I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
        > French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be forced
        > upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my obligations
        > are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I am
        > behaving myself.
        >
        > I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics, business,
        > banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many socialists
        > are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-called
        > republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada is
        in
        > shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this to
        > it being a socialist nation and having too much government
        > involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of
        drugs
        > sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
        > themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
        > government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they
        still
        > call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-enterprise.
        > When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
        > things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
        > acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur and
        > all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong"
        and
        > not titles.
        >
        > Chris
        >
        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@> wrote:
        > >
        >
        > >
        > > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
        > >
        > > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
        > > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law.
        But at
        > > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
        > > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-
        Canada,
        > > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid violence
        > > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
        > > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and
        free
        > > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we know
        who
        > > the victor will be.
        > >
        > > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants with
        pitch
        > > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the working
        man
        > > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them
        Lenin,
        > > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The German
        beer
        > > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance, good
        > > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny was
        all
        > > that followed.
        > >
        > > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be
        pulled
        > > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution
        ends. Our
        > > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct
        motives, and
        > > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our
        revolution
        > > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
        > > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
        > >
        > > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of
        jail, and
        > > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse
        working
        > > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you
        or I
        > > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Dear Mathew,
        > > >
        > > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit
        and
        > > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
        > > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
        > > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
        > > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep
        these
        > > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are
        often
        > > > closely linked together.
        > > >
        > > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical
        Movement
        > > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is
        aware
        > > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman
        Cannot Law",
        > > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in
        place
        > > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common
        Law or
        > > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the
        Constitution
        > > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
        > > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can
        show
        > > > YOU the law.
        > > >
        > > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land"
        is
        > > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of
        America".
        > > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
        > > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
        > > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
        > > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many
        people are
        > > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why
        on the
        > > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank
        Note, or
        > > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as
        in
        > > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is
        why,
        > > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
        > > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government
        assumes
        > > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in
        mind also,
        > > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any
        debt, or
        > > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay
        goes
        > > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the
        Founding
        > > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with
        blood. I
        > > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the
        words of
        > > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America
        and
        > > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
        > > >
        > > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
        > > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but
        to be
        > > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax
        without
        > > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
        > > > servants and NOT free men.
        > > >
        > > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further
        and
        > > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income
        tax for
        > > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that
        they are
        > > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in
        place
        > > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail
        here but
        > > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy,
        or a
        > > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
        > > >
        > > > Chris
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
        > > > >
        > > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
        > > > >
        > > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
        > > > >
        > > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
        > > > >
        > > > > > [brackets mine]
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
        > > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
        > > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy
        is
        > > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the
        New World
        > > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm
        open to
        > > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there
        that I
        > > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to
        illuminate the
        > > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new
        vision of
        > > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity
        atrophies and
        > > > > dies.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---
        an
        > > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism,
        spiritualized
        > > by
        > > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their
        asinine
        > > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their
        sickening
        > > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my
        sword.
        > > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
        <robertsmason_99@>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
        > > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
        > > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
        > > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
        > > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
        > > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
        > > > > > control of ideas.<<
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Robert writes:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
        > > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
        > > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
        > > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
        > > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
        > > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
        > > > > > flood it with disinformation.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Matthew wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
        > > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
        > > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
        > > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
        > > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
        > > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
        > > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
        > > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
        > > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
        > > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
        > > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
        > > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
        > > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
        > > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
        > > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
        > > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
        > > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
        > > > > > opposite is true.<<
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Robert writes:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
        > > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
        > > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
        > > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
        > > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
        > > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
        > > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
        > > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
        > > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
        > > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
        > > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
        > > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
        > > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
        > > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
        > > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
        > > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
        > > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
        > > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
        > > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
        > > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
        > > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
        > > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
        > > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
        > > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
        > > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
        > > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
        > > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
        > > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
        > > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
        > > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
        > > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
        > > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
        > > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
        > > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
        > > > > > way?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
        > > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
        > > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
        > > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
        > > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
        > > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
        > > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
        > > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
        > > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
        > > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
        > > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Robert Mason
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        __\
        > > \
        > > > > ____________
        > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels
        with
        > > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
        > > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • christopherraymond_bio
        Agreed Mathew. Politics mix with Anthroposophy, as does oil and water. The America bashing is annoying and too prevalent, almost a trend lately. ... not ...
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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          Agreed Mathew. Politics mix with Anthroposophy, as does oil and
          water. The America bashing is annoying and too prevalent, almost a
          trend lately.

          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
          >
          > Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but
          not
          > necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything
          > positive or inspiring. Mostly, political discussions have diverted
          > from our central aim to delve into Rudolph Steiner's vision of
          > spiritual science--- not to provide a forum to endlessly exercise
          our
          > personal demons. Politics never seizes to drive wedges between
          > people who would otherwise be friends.
          >
          > It is our semi-restriction on politics (especially America bashing)
          > that makes this forum unique from every other Rudolph Steiner forum
          > on the Internet. Our forum is also the least popular.
          >
          > Just to avoid any misconceptions in the future, let me add that I'm
          > not really a Socialist, per se. I consider myself a "light"
          > socialist, meaning I believe in strong, socialistic programs (like
          > Social Security and FAFSA) that benefit society as a whole without
          > making the people dependent on big government. In fact, most
          > members here would consider me a "right winger".
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
          > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which
          grants
          > > less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to
          freedom,
          > it
          > > is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
          > > what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
          > > Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than
          does
          > > the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
          > > appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
          > > travel into America today and this must reflect something more
          than
          > > "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
          > > Constitution.
          > >
          > > I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
          > > French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be
          forced
          > > upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my
          obligations
          > > are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I
          am
          > > behaving myself.
          > >
          > > I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics,
          business,
          > > banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many
          socialists
          > > are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-
          called
          > > republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada
          is
          > in
          > > shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this
          to
          > > it being a socialist nation and having too much government
          > > involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of
          > drugs
          > > sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
          > > themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
          > > government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they
          > still
          > > call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-
          enterprise.
          > > When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
          > > things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
          > > acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur
          and
          > > all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong"
          > and
          > > not titles.
          > >
          > > Chris
          > >
          > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@> wrote:
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
          > > >
          > > > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
          > > > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law.
          > But at
          > > > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
          > > > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-
          > Canada,
          > > > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid
          violence
          > > > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
          > > > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and
          > free
          > > > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we
          know
          > who
          > > > the victor will be.
          > > >
          > > > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants
          with
          > pitch
          > > > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the
          working
          > man
          > > > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them
          > Lenin,
          > > > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The
          German
          > beer
          > > > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance,
          good
          > > > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny
          was
          > all
          > > > that followed.
          > > >
          > > > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be
          > pulled
          > > > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution
          > ends. Our
          > > > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct
          > motives, and
          > > > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our
          > revolution
          > > > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
          > > > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
          > > >
          > > > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of
          > jail, and
          > > > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse
          > working
          > > > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you
          > or I
          > > > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
          > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Dear Mathew,
          > > > >
          > > > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy
          Spirit
          > and
          > > > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it
          is a
          > > > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world
          as
          > > > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on
          the
          > > > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep
          > these
          > > > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are
          > often
          > > > > closely linked together.
          > > > >
          > > > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical
          > Movement
          > > > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is
          > aware
          > > > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman
          > Cannot Law",
          > > > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in
          > place
          > > > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common
          > Law or
          > > > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the
          > Constitution
          > > > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
          > > > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can
          > show
          > > > > YOU the law.
          > > > >
          > > > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the
          land"
          > is
          > > > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of
          > America".
          > > > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS'
          as a
          > > > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is
          so.
          > > > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
          > > > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many
          > people are
          > > > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why
          > on the
          > > > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank
          > Note, or
          > > > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI,
          (as
          > in
          > > > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That
          is
          > why,
          > > > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
          > > > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government
          > assumes
          > > > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in
          > mind also,
          > > > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any
          > debt, or
          > > > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay
          > goes
          > > > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the
          > Founding
          > > > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with
          > blood. I
          > > > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the
          > words of
          > > > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of
          America
          > and
          > > > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
          > > > >
          > > > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding
          the
          > > > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea
          but
          > to be
          > > > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax
          > without
          > > > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
          > > > > servants and NOT free men.
          > > > >
          > > > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further
          > and
          > > > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income
          > tax for
          > > > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that
          > they are
          > > > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in
          > place
          > > > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail
          > here but
          > > > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy,
          > or a
          > > > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
          > > > >
          > > > > Chris
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@
          wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > [brackets mine]
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
          > > > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot
          see.
          > > > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and
          Anthroposophy
          > is
          > > > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the
          > New World
          > > > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm
          > open to
          > > > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there
          > that I
          > > > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to
          > illuminate the
          > > > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new
          > vision of
          > > > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity
          > atrophies and
          > > > > > dies.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order-
          --
          > an
          > > > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism,
          > spiritualized
          > > > by
          > > > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with
          their
          > asinine
          > > > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their
          > sickening
          > > > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my
          > sword.
          > > > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
          > <robertsmason_99@>
          > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
          > > > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
          > > > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
          > > > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
          > > > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
          > > > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
          > > > > > > control of ideas.<<
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Robert writes:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
          > > > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
          > > > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
          > > > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
          > > > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
          > > > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
          > > > > > > flood it with disinformation.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Matthew wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
          > > > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
          > > > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
          > > > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
          > > > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
          > > > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
          > > > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
          > > > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
          > > > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
          > > > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
          > > > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
          > > > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
          > > > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
          > > > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
          > > > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
          > > > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
          > > > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
          > > > > > > opposite is true.<<
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Robert writes:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
          > > > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
          > > > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
          > > > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
          > > > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
          > > > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
          > > > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
          > > > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
          > > > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
          > > > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
          > > > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
          > > > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
          > > > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
          > > > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
          > > > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
          > > > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
          > > > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
          > > > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
          > > > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
          > > > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
          > > > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
          > > > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
          > > > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
          > > > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
          > > > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
          > > > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
          > > > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
          > > > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
          > > > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
          > > > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
          > > > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
          > > > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
          > > > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
          > > > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
          > > > > > > way?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
          > > > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
          > > > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
          > > > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
          > > > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
          > > > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
          > > > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
          > > > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
          > > > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
          > > > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
          > > > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Robert Mason
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          ______________________________________________________________________
          > __\
          > > > \
          > > > > > ____________
          > > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and
          hotels
          > with
          > > > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
          > > > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
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