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RE: [steiner] Gulags for Anthros?

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  • Durward Starman
    *******All I can say about fears for the future is what Dr. Steiner said, and advised us to do, in the attached JPEG. If Ahriman prevents it from going through
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
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      *******All I can say about fears for the future is what Dr. Steiner said,
      and advised us to do, in the attached JPEG. If Ahriman prevents it from
      going through (as Yahoo now prevents anything as living as an image from
      going through in e-mail, only the dead letter), I'll type it out. It's a
      mantra for saying morning and evening to work with the Michaelic forces.
      Steiner says in introducing it that we must have no fear for what comes to
      us from the future but know it is guided by a world- intelligence of wisdom
      and love. I see hopeful signs in what you describe, especially here in the
      U.S.

      Starman

      www.DrStarman.com





      >From: Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>
      >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      >To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, steiner@yahoogroups.com,
      >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [steiner] Gulags for Anthros?
      >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
      >
      >To all:
      >
      >Sometime back, "Christine" wrote:
      >
      > >>I have said in the past (only once or twice,
      >because I had my head bitten off!) that
      >whenever a person comes to the [Waldorf]
      >movement as a perspective parent or teacher,
      >that they should first be warned that they
      >would be getting into something extremely
      >dangerous. That there is a real possibility
      >that they and their families could face
      >concentration camps or execution in the not so
      >distant future from their association with this
      >movement. Of course we could NEVER say this!
      >What would happen to enrollment figures!!?? But
      >it is true. We are living in perilous times.
      >Some day, historians will look back and say
      >"Didn't they realize that they were in an era
      >more dangerous than the one leading to
      >Hitler?"<<
      >(Yahoo anthroposophy_tomorrow: Message #32094:
      >"I still haven't heard from anybody who has
      >actually checked this out.")
      >
      >Robert writes:
      >
      >Some might dismiss the above as "paranoia", but
      >I would stop and think about it a few minutes,
      >at least. We all know very well that
      >Anthroposophy has always aroused fierce, even
      >murderous, opposition: witness "The Fire" and
      >the (very probable) poisoning of Steiner
      >himself. And those of us who are paying
      >attention to current world events (at least
      >those of us who are not blinded by prejudice
      >against "conspiracy theories" etc.) have to be
      >aware that deeply evil forces are working to
      >gain world power, have already gained much, and
      >are at the point of making a desperate gamble
      >for total power. This is becoming so obvious
      >that many observers, even non-occultists and
      >non-Anthros such a Alex Jones, see that dark
      >occultism is behind this power grab.
      >
      >And we should be aware that the demonic beings
      >who inspire these power occultists have a deep,
      >abiding hatred for the Christ and for human
      >freedom. It follows that these beings do have
      >very unpleasant intentions toward real
      >Christianity on Earth, and therefore especially
      >toward Anthroposophy as the prime public,
      >cultural manifestation of the Christ working
      >toward true human freedom. If anyone might
      >doubt just how unpleasant these intentions can
      >be, one need only consider the mountains of
      >human corpses piled up in the last century by
      >political power.
      >
      >And those of us who keep an eye on the Internet
      >probably have some idea of how such hatred
      >manifests in the campaign against Anthroposophy
      >as being "racist" etc. Many of us have had
      >some experience with the "Waldorf Critics", who
      >(at least the most active among the regulars
      >there) reveal this hatred relentlessly at work.
      >Probably most of those WC people are not
      >conscious of the forces that move them, or of
      >where their efforts are ultimately leading, but
      >the destructive, perverse energy is readily
      >apparent there. And if one keeps an eye out
      >over there, one might sometimes even run across
      >some useful information, for instance:
      >
      >(Yahoo waldorf-critics: Message #545: "Germany
      >is considering to censor Steiner")
      > >>Alex R�hle reports that Germany is
      >considering whether to censor two volumes from
      >the collected works of Rudolf Steiner for
      >racist content. A new study by historian Helmut
      >Zander - ("Anthroposophie in Deutschland",
      >Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht), examines the attitudes
      >of this founder of the Waldorf Schools, and
      >shows how he reflected the thinking of his day.
      >In two lecture series, one from 1908 and the
      >other from 1910, Steiner "investigated the
      >various human races in terms of their skin
      >colour and their standing in the development of
      >humankind." In short, says Zander, Steiner
      >found "blacks to be an imperfect, earlier
      >model, whereas whites are the fulfilment of the
      >goal of human evolution... He formulated an
      >ethnology in which the terms 'degenerate,' or
      >'backward,' or 'future' races was not
      >accidental, but rather the result of a well
      >planned evolution curriculum."<<
      >
      >Robert continues:
      >
      >Of course the campaign of destructive
      >distortion against Anthroposophy springs from
      >causes far deeper than any putative concern
      >about so-called "racism", but in this charge of
      >"racism" the enemies of Anthroposophy have
      >found a bludgeon that sometimes "works" all too
      >well in the current political-cultural climate.
      >And this bludgeon can be more deadly in much of
      >Europe now than in the USA. In much of Europe
      >the traditions of "freedom of speech" are much
      >weaker than in the USA, and people who say the
      >"wrong" things can be, and are, put into prison
      >on a regular basis. Here is an instructive
      >recent example:
      >
      >(http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2211
      >*The Brussels Journal*
      >"Secularist Europe Silences Pro-Lifers and
      >Creationists"
      >From the desk of Paul Belien on Sat, 2007-06-23
      >18:53)
      >
      > >>Last week, a German court sentenced a 55-year
      >old Lutheran pastor to one year in jail for
      >"Volksverhetzung" (incitement of the people)
      >because he compared the killing of the unborn
      >in contemporary Germany to the holocaust. . . .
      >Without legalized abortion the number of German
      >children would increase annually by at least
      >150,000 -- which is the number of legal
      >abortions in birth dearth Germany. Pastor
      >Johannes Lerle compared the killing of the
      >unborn to the killing of the Jews in Auschwitz
      >during the Second World War. On 14 June, a
      >court in Erlangen ruled that, in doing so, the
      >pastor had "incited the people" because his
      >statement was a denial of the holocaust of the
      >Jews in Nazi-Germany. Hence, Herr Lerle was
      >sentenced to one year in jail. Earlier, he had
      >already spent eight months in jail for calling
      >abortionists "professional killers" -- an
      >allegation which the court ruled to be
      >slanderous because, according to the court, the
      >unborn are not humans. Other German courts
      >convicted pro-lifers for saying that "in
      >abortion clinics, life unworthy of living is
      >being killed," because this terminology evoked
      >Hitler's euthanasia program, which used the
      >same language. In 2005, a German pro-lifer,
      >G�nter Annen, was sentenced to 50 days in jail
      >for saying "Stop unjust [rechtswidrige]
      >abortions in [medical] practice," because,
      >according to the court, the expression "unjust"
      >is understood by laymen as meaning illegal,
      >which abortions are not. . . . <<
      >
      >Robert continues:
      >
      >The inmates have been running the asylum in
      >Germany for a long time, but now they are
      >apparently not even pretending to be sane. For
      >many years anyone there who publicly expressed
      >doubts about the official history of the
      >"Holocaust" has been liable to time in the
      >slammer, but now even someone who expressed no
      >such doubts at all but only likened the
      >abortion plague to the putative "Holocaust" has
      >been put in prison for . . . "denial of the
      >holocaust". When such a legal violation of
      >basic liberty expands into such a blatant
      >violation of logic itself, one might well
      >wonder what violations are coming next.
      >
      >It's not much of stretch to see that if
      >criticism of abortion could be
      >"Volksverhetzung", then promulgation of such
      >Anthroposophical "racism" as cited above could
      >be just as well. If we don't think that the
      >widespread campaign against Anthro "racism"
      >isn't working toward such legal attacks,
      >especially in Europe, then I think we are being
      >na�ve indeed. Again, maybe not all these
      >"critics" of Anthro "racism" are conscious of
      >this tendency, but nevertheless they are in
      >fact preparing the ground.
      >
      >To get a fuller view of the political climate
      >in Europe, we can read more of the article:
      >
      > >>In Germany, believing [sic] abortion to be as
      >murderous as the holocaust is a crime, and
      >educating your own children is a crime too. In
      >France, saying that "homosexual behaviour
      >endangers the survival of humanity" is a crime,
      >and so is the distribution of pork soup to the
      >poor. In Belgium, speaking out against
      >immigration is a crime. In the latest issue of
      >the Dutch conservative magazine Bitter Lemon
      >the Dutch author Erik van Goor writes that
      >European courts are silencing conservative and
      >orthodox citizens. Freedom of speech no longer
      >exist, says van Goor. "While many in the West
      >still idolize the second-hand fighters for free
      >speech, such as [Ayaan] Hirsi Ali and Theo van
      >Gogh, the true victims of curtailment are
      >deliberately kept under wraps. Hirsi Ali, [Pim]
      >Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were not curtailed by
      >the state or by court, Johannes Lerle is. The
      >former voiced mere opinions -- expressions of a
      >public opinion which one may or may not value
      >or believe. The latter -- Dr Lerle -- shows
      >that what is at stake is not merely opinions,
      >but a moral order which is being questioned; a
      >reality of life and death which is at risk."
      >
      > >>Hirsi Ali, Fortuyn and van Gogh did not
      >defend Europe's traditional Christian moral
      >order. People such as Johannes Lerle and
      >Christian Vanneste, the French parliamentarian
      >who was convicted for "homophobia," do. The
      >latter are being persecuted by Western Europe's
      >political regimes -- a phenomenon which is
      >ignored completely by the Western mainstream
      >media, who participate in the persecution.<<
      >
      >Robert continues:
      >
      >And we can get some idea of what kind of new
      >violations of basic liberties are "in the
      >works":
      >
      > >>Next week, the Council of Europe is going to
      >vote on a resolution imposing Darwinism as
      >Europe's official ideology. The European
      >governments are asked to fight the expression
      >of creationist opinions, such as young earth
      >and intelligent design theories. According to
      >the Council of Europe these theories are
      >"undemocratic" and "a threat to human rights."
      >
      > >>Volksverhetzung is a crime which the Nazis
      >often invoked against their enemies and which
      >contemporary Germany also uses to intimidate
      >homeschoolers. Soon, the German authorities
      >will be able to use the same charge against
      >people who question Darwin's evolution theory.
      >Indeed, next Tuesday, the Council of Europe
      >(CoE), Europe's main human-rights body, will
      >vote on a proposal which advocates the fight
      >against creationism, "young earth" and
      >"intelligent design" in its 47 member states.
      >According to a report of the CoE's
      >Parliamentary Assembly, creationists are
      >dangerous "religious fundamentalists" who
      >propagate "forms of religious extremism" and
      >"could become a threat to human rights." The
      >report adds that the acceptance of the science
      >of evolutionism "is crucial to the future of
      >our societies and our democracies."
      >"Creationism, born of the denial of the
      >evolution of species through natural selection,
      >was for a long time an almost exclusively
      >American phenomenon," the report says. "Today
      >creationist theories are tending to find their
      >way into Europe and their spread is affecting
      >quite a few Council of Europe member states. .
      >. . [T]his is liable to encourage the
      >development of all manner of fundamentalism and
      >extremism, synonymous with attacks of utmost
      >virulence on human rights. The total rejection
      >of science is definitely one of the most
      >serious threats to human rights and civic
      >rights. . . . The war on the theory of
      >evolution and on its proponents most often
      >originates in forms of religious extremism
      >which are closely allied to extreme right-wing
      >political movements. The creationist movements
      >possess real political power. The fact of the
      >matter, and this has been exposed on several
      >occasions, is that the advocates of strict
      >creationism are out to replace democracy by
      >theocracy. [...] If we are not careful, the
      >values that are the very essence of the Council
      >of Europe will be under direct threat from
      >creationist fundamentalists."
      >
      > >>According to the CoE report, America and
      >Australia are already on their way towards
      >becoming such undemocratic theocracies where
      >human and civic rights are endangered.
      >Creationism is "well-developed in the English-
      >speaking countries, especially the United
      >States and Australia," the report states.
      >"While most curricula in Europe today
      >unashamedly teach evolution as a recognised
      >scientific theory, the same does not apply to
      >the United States. In July 2005, the Pew
      >Research Center conducted a poll that showed
      >that 64% of Americans favoured the teaching of
      >intelligent design alongside the theory of
      >evolution and that 38% would support the total
      >abandonment of the teaching of evolution in
      >publicly owned schools. The American President
      >George W. Bush supports the principle of
      >teaching both intelligent design and the theory
      >of evolution. At the moment, 20 of the 50
      >American states are facing potential
      >adjustments of their school curricula in favour
      >of intelligent design. Many people think that
      >this phenomenon only affects the United States
      >and that, even if it is not possible to be
      >indifferent to what is happening on the other
      >side of the Atlantic, it is not the Council of
      >Europe's role to deal with this issue. That,
      >however, is not the case. On the contrary, it
      >would seem crucial for us to take the
      >appropriate precautions in our 47 member
      >states."
      >
      >Robert writes:
      >
      >But at least this proposal have been "put on
      >the back burner", for now;
      >
      > >>Update A quote from Reuters, 25 June 2007:
      >Europe's main human rights body on Monday
      >cancelled a scheduled vote on banning
      >creationist and intelligent design views from
      >school science classes, saying the proposed
      >resolution was one-sided. . . . Guy Lengagne,
      >the French Socialist member of the Assembly who
      >drew up the report, protested after the
      >Parliamentary Assembly voted to call off the
      >debate and vote, and [approved a proposal of
      >the Flemish Christian-Democrat Luc Van den
      >Brande] to send the report back to committee
      >for further study. . . . Deputies said the
      >motion by the Christian Democratic group of
      >parliamentarians also won support from east
      >European deputies, who recalled that Darwinian
      >evolution was a favorite theory of their former
      >communist rulers.<<
      >
      >Robert comments:
      >
      >And at least those who have lived under outright
      >Communism can see where all this is headed.
      >Perhaps an unintended consequence of EU push
      >into the Slavic areas is that those survivors
      >of Bolshevism will act as a restraint on the
      >Western atheistic-materialist mind-control
      >agenda?
      >
      >And, while those of us living in the USA might
      >allow ourselves a sad, weary smile at the
      >apparent credence that the CoE gives to the
      >American President's alleged support of the
      >dreaded "creationism", perhaps that horrified
      >fear of this particular kind of Americanism
      >still might point out a real difference between
      >Europe and the USA. Just considering the facts
      >that a major US politician at least gives "lip
      >service" to a resistance to rampant Darwinism
      >and that those polls show such a resistance
      >among the American population, these facts seem
      >to show something that might seem paradoxical
      >to Anthros who are familiar with the idea that
      >cultural materialism in the world comes
      >primarily from America. It might well be that,
      >despite the many years of pervasive,
      >materialistic-Darwinistic "education", there
      >still remains among the American people a deep,
      >widespread, instinctive hold on at least some
      >elements of a spiritual worldview. To this
      >American observer, such instincts do not seem
      >to be as pervasive and widespread among the
      >European population, at least not in Western
      >and Central Europe. (Perhaps some Europeans
      >here might wish to comment on this observation?)
      >
      >I get the feeling, or at least the hope, that,
      >given this instinctive American spirituality
      >and the strong American tradition of "freedom
      >of speech", such legal atrocities as that
      >committed against Pastor Lerle are still not
      >possible here in the USA. And likewise, I get
      >the feeling that moves to censor Anthroposophy,
      >or to imprison outspoken Anthros for promoting
      >"racism" or whatnot, are not as great a danger
      >in the US as they are in Germany and much of
      >Europe. Not yet, anyway.
      >
      >I realize that there are powerful forces
      >working to make such dangers real in the US,
      >still it seems to me that the main attacks
      >against spirituality and freedom in the US come
      >not so much in the form of legal prohibitions
      >but rather in the form of making people
      >inwardly incapable of spiritual freedom. This
      >American oppression comes from the combined
      >might of economic and cultural perversions,
      >mainly through "public education" but also
      >through the financial "rat race", movies,
      >"music", television, forced drugging, forced
      >vaccinations, poisoned food, poisoned water,
      >electromagnetic poisoning, etc., etc. (Such
      >expos�s as that brought by Christine from
      >Charlotte Iserbyt are enlightening in this
      >regard.)
      >
      >I'm not saying that direct, legal attacks
      >against freedom in the USA are not "in the
      >works"; surely they are. But it seems that
      >there is yet enough resistance, or potential
      >resistance, in the American people so that the
      >Powers That Be are not quite ready to make that
      >final move. Not only the instinctive American
      >spirituality and respect for personal freedom
      >act as restraints on those Powers, but so also
      >does the brute fact that the American people
      >are armed, as well as the paradoxical fact
      >that, to some extent, technology seems to be
      >backfiring on the Ahrimanic powers: for
      >instance, the "9-11 truth movement" could
      >hardly have reached its present strength
      >without the Internet. So many people are
      >"waking up" that this movement could become a
      >*real* problem for the Powers That Be in the US
      >-- perhaps.
      >
      >But maybe I'm indulging in wishful thinking?
      >Still, I do have the feeling that European
      >Anthros should be more worried about being sent
      >to the Gulags than should American Anthros, at
      >least for now. I'd be interested to get and
      >compare comments from European and American
      >Anthroposophists on this question.
      >
      >Robert Mason
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Durward Starman
      *******Well, the main anthroposophists I ve run into with loony conspiracy theories are here on the internet. If you re a parent in a Waldorf School and start
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
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        *******Well, the main anthroposophists I've run into with loony conspiracy
        theories are here on the internet. If you're a parent in a Waldorf School
        and start going off the deep end with stuff like that, everyone will change
        the subject or leave you to argue with some drunks or something. ;->

        But it's certainly true that a lot of young people join bio-dynamic farms
        and similar things out of alienation and are often politically nut-jobs.

        I have never met an anti-Semitic anthroposophist, though. Quite the
        opposite, I've known many Jewish ones and others who made a special study of
        Judaism.

        Starman

        www.DrStarman.com





        >From: "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...>
        >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [steiner] Re: Gulags for Anthros?
        >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:55:48 -0000
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Mr. Mason wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
        >
        > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
        >
        > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
        >
        > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
        >
        > > [brackets mine]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
        >something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
        >You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
        >a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
        >Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
        >the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
        >haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
        >world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
        >Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
        >dies.
        >
        >
        >
        >That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
        >illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized by
        >God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
        >
        >
        >
        >When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
        >conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
        >hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
        >Until then, you guys are on your own.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >--- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>
        >wrote:
        > >
        > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
        > >
        > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
        > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
        > > material onto the Internet---and those
        > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
        > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
        > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
        > > control of ideas.<<
        > >
        > > Robert writes:
        > >
        > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
        > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
        > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
        > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
        > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
        > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
        > > flood it with disinformation.
        > >
        > > Matthew wrote:
        > >
        > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
        > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
        > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
        > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
        > > see any major political conflicts arising
        > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
        > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
        > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
        > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
        > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
        > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
        > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
        > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
        > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
        > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
        > > flattering themselves with the idea that
        > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
        > > opposite is true.<<
        > >
        > > Robert writes:
        > >
        > > That's an interesting perception of the
        > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
        > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
        > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
        > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
        > > the outlook that is normal in the society
        > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
        > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
        > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
        > > matter as to how much the encounter with
        > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
        > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
        > >
        > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
        > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
        > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
        > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
        > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
        > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
        > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
        > > appear to be on the physical plane.
        > >
        > > Therefore, just having any connection with
        > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
        > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
        > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
        > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
        > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
        > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
        > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
        > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
        > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
        > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
        > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
        > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
        > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
        > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
        > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
        > > way?
        > >
        > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
        > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
        > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
        > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
        > > question I was asking, and asking whether
        > > traditional American respect for freedom would
        > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
        > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
        > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
        > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
        > >
        > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
        > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
        > >
        > > Robert Mason
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >________________________________________________________________________\
        >____________
        > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
        >Yahoo! FareChase.
        > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
        > >
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
        http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
      • christopherraymond_bio
        Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom, it is temporal freedom
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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          Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants
          less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom, it
          is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
          what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
          Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than does
          the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
          appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
          travel into America today and this must reflect something more than
          "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
          Constitution.

          I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
          French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be forced
          upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my obligations
          are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I am
          behaving myself.

          I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics, business,
          banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many socialists
          are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-called
          republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada is in
          shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this to
          it being a socialist nation and having too much government
          involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of drugs
          sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
          themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
          government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they still
          call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-enterprise.
          When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
          things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
          acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur and
          all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong" and
          not titles.

          Chris

          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
          >

          >
          > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
          >
          > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
          > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law. But at
          > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
          > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-Canada,
          > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid violence
          > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
          > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and free
          > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we know who
          > the victor will be.
          >
          > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants with pitch
          > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the working man
          > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them Lenin,
          > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The German beer
          > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance, good
          > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny was all
          > that followed.
          >
          > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be pulled
          > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution ends. Our
          > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct motives, and
          > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our revolution
          > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
          > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
          >
          > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of jail, and
          > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse working
          > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you or I
          > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
          > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Mathew,
          > >
          > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit and
          > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
          > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
          > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
          > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep these
          > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are often
          > > closely linked together.
          > >
          > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical Movement
          > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is aware
          > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman Cannot Law",
          > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in place
          > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common Law or
          > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the Constitution
          > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
          > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can show
          > > YOU the law.
          > >
          > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land" is
          > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of America".
          > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
          > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
          > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
          > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many people are
          > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why on the
          > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank Note, or
          > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as in
          > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is why,
          > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
          > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government assumes
          > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in mind also,
          > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any debt, or
          > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay goes
          > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the Founding
          > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with blood. I
          > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the words of
          > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America and
          > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
          > >
          > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
          > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but to be
          > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax without
          > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
          > > servants and NOT free men.
          > >
          > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further and
          > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income tax for
          > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that they are
          > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in place
          > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail here but
          > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy, or a
          > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
          > >
          > > Chris
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
          > > >
          > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
          > > >
          > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
          > > >
          > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
          > > >
          > > > > [brackets mine]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
          > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
          > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
          > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
          > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
          > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
          > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
          > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
          > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
          > > > dies.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
          > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized
          > by
          > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
          > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
          > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
          > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
          > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
          > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
          > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
          > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
          > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
          > > > > control of ideas.<<
          > > > >
          > > > > Robert writes:
          > > > >
          > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
          > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
          > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
          > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
          > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
          > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
          > > > > flood it with disinformation.
          > > > >
          > > > > Matthew wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
          > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
          > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
          > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
          > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
          > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
          > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
          > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
          > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
          > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
          > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
          > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
          > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
          > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
          > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
          > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
          > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
          > > > > opposite is true.<<
          > > > >
          > > > > Robert writes:
          > > > >
          > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
          > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
          > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
          > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
          > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
          > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
          > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
          > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
          > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
          > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
          > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
          > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
          > > > >
          > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
          > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
          > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
          > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
          > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
          > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
          > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
          > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
          > > > >
          > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
          > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
          > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
          > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
          > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
          > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
          > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
          > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
          > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
          > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
          > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
          > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
          > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
          > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
          > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
          > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
          > > > > way?
          > > > >
          > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
          > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
          > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
          > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
          > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
          > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
          > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
          > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
          > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
          > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
          > > > >
          > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
          > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
          > > > >
          > > > > Robert Mason
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          ________________________________________________________________________\
          > \
          > > > ____________
          > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
          > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
          > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Mathew Morrell
          Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but not necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything positive or inspiring.
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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            Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but not
            necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything
            positive or inspiring. Mostly, political discussions have diverted
            from our central aim to delve into Rudolph Steiner's vision of
            spiritual science--- not to provide a forum to endlessly exercise our
            personal demons. Politics never seizes to drive wedges between
            people who would otherwise be friends.

            It is our semi-restriction on politics (especially America bashing)
            that makes this forum unique from every other Rudolph Steiner forum
            on the Internet. Our forum is also the least popular.

            Just to avoid any misconceptions in the future, let me add that I'm
            not really a Socialist, per se. I consider myself a "light"
            socialist, meaning I believe in strong, socialistic programs (like
            Social Security and FAFSA) that benefit society as a whole without
            making the people dependent on big government. In fact, most
            members here would consider me a "right winger".




            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
            <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants
            > less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom,
            it
            > is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
            > what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
            > Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than does
            > the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
            > appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
            > travel into America today and this must reflect something more than
            > "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
            > Constitution.
            >
            > I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
            > French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be forced
            > upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my obligations
            > are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I am
            > behaving myself.
            >
            > I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics, business,
            > banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many socialists
            > are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-called
            > republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada is
            in
            > shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this to
            > it being a socialist nation and having too much government
            > involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of
            drugs
            > sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
            > themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
            > government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they
            still
            > call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-enterprise.
            > When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
            > things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
            > acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur and
            > all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong"
            and
            > not titles.
            >
            > Chris
            >
            > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@> wrote:
            > >
            >
            > >
            > > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
            > >
            > > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
            > > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law.
            But at
            > > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
            > > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-
            Canada,
            > > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid violence
            > > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
            > > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and
            free
            > > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we know
            who
            > > the victor will be.
            > >
            > > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants with
            pitch
            > > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the working
            man
            > > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them
            Lenin,
            > > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The German
            beer
            > > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance, good
            > > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny was
            all
            > > that followed.
            > >
            > > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be
            pulled
            > > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution
            ends. Our
            > > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct
            motives, and
            > > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our
            revolution
            > > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
            > > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
            > >
            > > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of
            jail, and
            > > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse
            working
            > > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you
            or I
            > > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
            > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dear Mathew,
            > > >
            > > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit
            and
            > > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
            > > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
            > > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
            > > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep
            these
            > > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are
            often
            > > > closely linked together.
            > > >
            > > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical
            Movement
            > > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is
            aware
            > > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman
            Cannot Law",
            > > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in
            place
            > > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common
            Law or
            > > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the
            Constitution
            > > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
            > > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can
            show
            > > > YOU the law.
            > > >
            > > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land"
            is
            > > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of
            America".
            > > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
            > > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
            > > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
            > > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many
            people are
            > > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why
            on the
            > > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank
            Note, or
            > > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as
            in
            > > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is
            why,
            > > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
            > > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government
            assumes
            > > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in
            mind also,
            > > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any
            debt, or
            > > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay
            goes
            > > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the
            Founding
            > > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with
            blood. I
            > > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the
            words of
            > > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America
            and
            > > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
            > > >
            > > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
            > > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but
            to be
            > > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax
            without
            > > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
            > > > servants and NOT free men.
            > > >
            > > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further
            and
            > > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income
            tax for
            > > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that
            they are
            > > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in
            place
            > > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail
            here but
            > > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy,
            or a
            > > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
            > > >
            > > > Chris
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@ wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
            > > > >
            > > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
            > > > >
            > > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
            > > > >
            > > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
            > > > >
            > > > > > [brackets mine]
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
            > > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
            > > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy
            is
            > > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the
            New World
            > > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm
            open to
            > > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there
            that I
            > > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to
            illuminate the
            > > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new
            vision of
            > > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity
            atrophies and
            > > > > dies.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---
            an
            > > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism,
            spiritualized
            > > by
            > > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their
            asinine
            > > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their
            sickening
            > > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my
            sword.
            > > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
            <robertsmason_99@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
            > > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
            > > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
            > > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
            > > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
            > > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
            > > > > > control of ideas.<<
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Robert writes:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
            > > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
            > > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
            > > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
            > > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
            > > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
            > > > > > flood it with disinformation.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Matthew wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
            > > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
            > > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
            > > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
            > > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
            > > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
            > > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
            > > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
            > > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
            > > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
            > > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
            > > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
            > > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
            > > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
            > > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
            > > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
            > > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
            > > > > > opposite is true.<<
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Robert writes:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
            > > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
            > > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
            > > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
            > > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
            > > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
            > > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
            > > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
            > > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
            > > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
            > > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
            > > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
            > > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
            > > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
            > > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
            > > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
            > > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
            > > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
            > > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
            > > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
            > > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
            > > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
            > > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
            > > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
            > > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
            > > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
            > > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
            > > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
            > > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
            > > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
            > > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
            > > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
            > > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
            > > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
            > > > > > way?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
            > > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
            > > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
            > > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
            > > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
            > > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
            > > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
            > > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
            > > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
            > > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
            > > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Robert Mason
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            __\
            > > \
            > > > > ____________
            > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels
            with
            > > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
            > > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • christopherraymond_bio
            Agreed Mathew. Politics mix with Anthroposophy, as does oil and water. The America bashing is annoying and too prevalent, almost a trend lately. ... not ...
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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              Agreed Mathew. Politics mix with Anthroposophy, as does oil and
              water. The America bashing is annoying and too prevalent, almost a
              trend lately.

              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
              >
              > Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but
              not
              > necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything
              > positive or inspiring. Mostly, political discussions have diverted
              > from our central aim to delve into Rudolph Steiner's vision of
              > spiritual science--- not to provide a forum to endlessly exercise
              our
              > personal demons. Politics never seizes to drive wedges between
              > people who would otherwise be friends.
              >
              > It is our semi-restriction on politics (especially America bashing)
              > that makes this forum unique from every other Rudolph Steiner forum
              > on the Internet. Our forum is also the least popular.
              >
              > Just to avoid any misconceptions in the future, let me add that I'm
              > not really a Socialist, per se. I consider myself a "light"
              > socialist, meaning I believe in strong, socialistic programs (like
              > Social Security and FAFSA) that benefit society as a whole without
              > making the people dependent on big government. In fact, most
              > members here would consider me a "right winger".
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which
              grants
              > > less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to
              freedom,
              > it
              > > is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
              > > what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
              > > Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than
              does
              > > the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
              > > appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
              > > travel into America today and this must reflect something more
              than
              > > "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
              > > Constitution.
              > >
              > > I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
              > > French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be
              forced
              > > upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my
              obligations
              > > are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I
              am
              > > behaving myself.
              > >
              > > I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics,
              business,
              > > banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many
              socialists
              > > are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-
              called
              > > republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada
              is
              > in
              > > shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this
              to
              > > it being a socialist nation and having too much government
              > > involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of
              > drugs
              > > sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
              > > themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
              > > government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they
              > still
              > > call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-
              enterprise.
              > > When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
              > > things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
              > > acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur
              and
              > > all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong"
              > and
              > > not titles.
              > >
              > > Chris
              > >
              > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@> wrote:
              > > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
              > > >
              > > > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
              > > > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law.
              > But at
              > > > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
              > > > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-
              > Canada,
              > > > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid
              violence
              > > > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
              > > > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and
              > free
              > > > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we
              know
              > who
              > > > the victor will be.
              > > >
              > > > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants
              with
              > pitch
              > > > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the
              working
              > man
              > > > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them
              > Lenin,
              > > > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The
              German
              > beer
              > > > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance,
              good
              > > > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny
              was
              > all
              > > > that followed.
              > > >
              > > > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be
              > pulled
              > > > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution
              > ends. Our
              > > > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct
              > motives, and
              > > > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our
              > revolution
              > > > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
              > > > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
              > > >
              > > > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of
              > jail, and
              > > > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse
              > working
              > > > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you
              > or I
              > > > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Dear Mathew,
              > > > >
              > > > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy
              Spirit
              > and
              > > > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it
              is a
              > > > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world
              as
              > > > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on
              the
              > > > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep
              > these
              > > > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are
              > often
              > > > > closely linked together.
              > > > >
              > > > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical
              > Movement
              > > > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is
              > aware
              > > > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman
              > Cannot Law",
              > > > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in
              > place
              > > > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common
              > Law or
              > > > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the
              > Constitution
              > > > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
              > > > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can
              > show
              > > > > YOU the law.
              > > > >
              > > > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the
              land"
              > is
              > > > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of
              > America".
              > > > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS'
              as a
              > > > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is
              so.
              > > > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
              > > > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many
              > people are
              > > > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why
              > on the
              > > > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank
              > Note, or
              > > > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI,
              (as
              > in
              > > > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That
              is
              > why,
              > > > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
              > > > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government
              > assumes
              > > > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in
              > mind also,
              > > > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any
              > debt, or
              > > > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay
              > goes
              > > > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the
              > Founding
              > > > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with
              > blood. I
              > > > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the
              > words of
              > > > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of
              America
              > and
              > > > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
              > > > >
              > > > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding
              the
              > > > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea
              but
              > to be
              > > > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax
              > without
              > > > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
              > > > > servants and NOT free men.
              > > > >
              > > > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further
              > and
              > > > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income
              > tax for
              > > > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that
              > they are
              > > > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in
              > place
              > > > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail
              > here but
              > > > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy,
              > or a
              > > > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
              > > > >
              > > > > Chris
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@
              wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > [brackets mine]
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
              > > > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot
              see.
              > > > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and
              Anthroposophy
              > is
              > > > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the
              > New World
              > > > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm
              > open to
              > > > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there
              > that I
              > > > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to
              > illuminate the
              > > > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new
              > vision of
              > > > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity
              > atrophies and
              > > > > > dies.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order-
              --
              > an
              > > > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism,
              > spiritualized
              > > > by
              > > > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with
              their
              > asinine
              > > > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their
              > sickening
              > > > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my
              > sword.
              > > > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
              > <robertsmason_99@>
              > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
              > > > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
              > > > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
              > > > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
              > > > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
              > > > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
              > > > > > > control of ideas.<<
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Robert writes:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
              > > > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
              > > > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
              > > > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
              > > > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
              > > > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
              > > > > > > flood it with disinformation.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Matthew wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
              > > > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
              > > > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
              > > > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
              > > > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
              > > > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
              > > > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
              > > > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
              > > > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
              > > > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
              > > > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
              > > > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
              > > > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
              > > > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
              > > > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
              > > > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
              > > > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
              > > > > > > opposite is true.<<
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Robert writes:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
              > > > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
              > > > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
              > > > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
              > > > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
              > > > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
              > > > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
              > > > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
              > > > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
              > > > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
              > > > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
              > > > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
              > > > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
              > > > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
              > > > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
              > > > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
              > > > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
              > > > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
              > > > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
              > > > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
              > > > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
              > > > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
              > > > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
              > > > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
              > > > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
              > > > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
              > > > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
              > > > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
              > > > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
              > > > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
              > > > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
              > > > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
              > > > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
              > > > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
              > > > > > > way?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
              > > > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
              > > > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
              > > > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
              > > > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
              > > > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
              > > > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
              > > > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
              > > > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
              > > > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
              > > > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Robert Mason
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              ______________________________________________________________________
              > __\
              > > > \
              > > > > > ____________
              > > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and
              hotels
              > with
              > > > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
              > > > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
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