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Re: Gulags for Anthros?

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  • Mathew Morrell
    If they start censoring Steiner s lectures, don t fret. Start uploading his censored material onto the Internet---and those teachings, in turn, will become
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 24, 2007
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      If they start censoring Steiner's lectures, don't fret.  Start uploading his censored material onto the Internet---and those teachings, in turn, will become more available than they are now.  In our time, the Internet is our greatest weapon against totalitarian control of ideas.

      To upload material onto the Internet:

      • first scan the written material onto your computer
      • save it in some document format, preferably as a pdf file.
      • find an Internet hosting agent (register under an alias)
      • upload your document using the Internet authoring software of your choice, such as Dreamweaver.

      When they remove your Web page, upload the material again through another hosting agent.

      Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron, isn't it?  Maybe the Internet has warped my view of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't see any major political conflicts arising anytime soon between the New World Order and Anthroposophy.  Nor can I envision the average Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-education camp or a Gulag.

      In fact, I see the opposite occuring.  The New World Order and the average Anthroposophist are in perfect agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control, immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the two spheres almost seem to be an extension of one another.  Anthroposophists should stop flattering themselves with the idea that they're radical intellectuals, when quite the opposite is true.

    • Robert Mason
      ... don t fret. Start uploading his censored material onto the Internet---and those teachings, in turn, will become more available than they are now. In our
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 27, 2007
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        To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:

        >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
        don't fret. Start uploading his censored
        material onto the Internet---and those
        teachings, in turn, will become more available
        than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
        our greatest weapon against totalitarian
        control of ideas.<<

        Robert writes:

        Just about all of Steiner's writings and
        lectures are already on the Net in German, and
        a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
        But the would-be totalitarians are already
        exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
        far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
        flood it with disinformation.

        Matthew wrote:

        >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
        totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
        isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
        of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
        see any major political conflicts arising
        anytime soon between the New World Order and
        Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
        Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
        education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
        opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
        average Anthroposophist are in perfect
        agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
        immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
        two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
        one another. Anthroposophists should stop
        flattering themselves with the idea that
        they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
        opposite is true.<<

        Robert writes:

        That's an interesting perception of the
        "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
        experience on which to base it than I have. I
        suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
        Anthros are only people, and most people have
        the outlook that is normal in the society
        around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
        they usually bring some of the "normal"
        prejudices with them. It's an individual
        matter as to how much the encounter with
        Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
        "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.

        Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
        at odds with the prevailing materialistic
        worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
        the inner circles) know this fact very well,
        and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
        serious obstacle to their aims, however
        insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
        appear to be on the physical plane.

        Therefore, just having any connection with
        Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
        arrest list, or the extermination list.
        Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
        body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
        shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
        unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
        suppose it would do him any good to protest,
        "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
        gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
        ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
        HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
        Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
        be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
        the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
        "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
        way?

        Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
        comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
        the Power That Be would like it to, or would
        there be some restraint? That's kinda the
        question I was asking, and asking whether
        traditional American respect for freedom would
        yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
        But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
        would like to exterminate anyone who has any
        real appreciation of Anthroposophy.

        I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
        I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?

        Robert Mason





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      • Mathew Morrell
        ... I ll at least accept the possibility that you re seeing something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see. You re a bright person. Maybe you re
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 27, 2007
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          Mr. Mason wrote:

           

          > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand

          > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their

          > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-

          > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane. 

          > [brackets mine]

           

           

          I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.  You're a bright person.  Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World Order.  Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the world.  Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and dies.

           

          That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized by God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.

           

          When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening hatred of the United States , wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.  Until then, you guys are on your own.

           

           


          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
          >
          > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
          >
          > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
          > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
          > material onto the Internet---and those
          > teachings, in turn, will become more available
          > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
          > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
          > control of ideas.<<
          >
          > Robert writes:
          >
          > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
          > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
          > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
          > But the would-be totalitarians are already
          > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
          > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
          > flood it with disinformation.
          >
          > Matthew wrote:
          >
          > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
          > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
          > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
          > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
          > see any major political conflicts arising
          > anytime soon between the New World Order and
          > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
          > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
          > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
          > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
          > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
          > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
          > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
          > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
          > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
          > flattering themselves with the idea that
          > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
          > opposite is true.<<
          >
          > Robert writes:
          >
          > That's an interesting perception of the
          > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
          > experience on which to base it than I have. I
          > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
          > Anthros are only people, and most people have
          > the outlook that is normal in the society
          > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
          > they usually bring some of the "normal"
          > prejudices with them. It's an individual
          > matter as to how much the encounter with
          > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
          > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
          >
          > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
          > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
          > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
          > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
          > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
          > serious obstacle to their aims, however
          > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
          > appear to be on the physical plane.
          >
          > Therefore, just having any connection with
          > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
          > arrest list, or the extermination list.
          > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
          > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
          > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
          > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
          > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
          > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
          > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
          > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
          > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
          > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
          > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
          > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
          > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
          > way?
          >
          > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
          > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
          > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
          > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
          > question I was asking, and asking whether
          > traditional American respect for freedom would
          > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
          > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
          > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
          > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
          >
          > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
          > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
          >
          > Robert Mason
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
          > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
          >
        • happypick2000
          Dear Friends, In light of the recent ponderings and wonderings regarding the preservation of Anthroposophy, I should like to offer for consideration the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 27, 2007
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            Dear Friends,

            In light of the recent ponderings and wonderings regarding the
            preservation of Anthroposophy, I should like to offer for
            consideration the following exerpt from a writing by a close co-worker
            of Rudolf Steiner, Frau Helle Unger Weisshaar, in response to the
            permanence of Anthroposophy. Frau Helle entitled her small work "The
            Foundation Stone of the General Anthroposophical Society." I quote the
            beginning words of her writing:

            "Chapter I

            On the 25th of December, 1923, there took place in Dornach the
            laying of the Foundation Stone of the General Anthroposophical
            Society. Rudolf Steiner had sent an invitation to all members of the
            Anthroposophical Society to come to Dornach to work out, together, a
            form for the society suitable to the needs of the Anthroposophical
            Movement.
            "In place of ordinary statutes for the newly-founded General
            Society, there was presented, item by item, to the members (for their
            acceptance or the suggestion of alternatives) a description of what
            might be accomplished by people in a purely human life-association as
            an Anthroposophical Society. The GROUND in which the Foundation Stone
            was laid WAS THE HEARTS AND SOULS of the personalities joined in the
            Anthroposophical Society. THE FOUNDATION STONE ITSELF WAS to be the
            moral force welling up from the anthroposophical conduct of life. This
            moral force (attitude-Gesinnung) develops by means of self-deepening
            and soul-dicipline on the way to awareness of the spirit and to life
            in accordance with the spirit.
            Anthroposophy is the path to the true man. Believing in the good
            will of those who, supported by love of truth, will follow this path
            and relying upon their serious purpose to educate themselves, by means
            of spiritual training, to live in Truth, to feel the Truth, to think
            the Truth, Rudolf Steiner fashioned in mantric form the following
            Foundation Stone of the General Anthroposophical Society, and
            entrusted it to the hearts and souls of the seven to eight hundred
            people who came together in response to his call for this Christmas
            Conference in Dornach.

            "I
            Soul of Man!
            Thou livest in the LIMBS
            Which bear thee through the Space-expanses
            Into the ocean of Spirit-Being.
            Practice SPIRIT RECOLLECTION
            In depths of soul.
            Where, in the power of World-creator-Beings,
            Thy Self takes origin from Self Divine-
            And thou shall live in Truth
            In Human-Cosmic Being!
            For the Father Spirit of the Heights doth reign
            In the Depths of the world, begetting Being.
            Ye Spirits of Strength!
            Let from the Heights ring forth
            What in the Depths its echo doth find,
            It speaks:
            FROM THE DIVINE SPRINGETH MANKIND.
            Spirit Beings hear it in East, West, North, South;
            May human beings hear it!

            II

            Soul of Man!
            Thou livest in the PULSE OF HEART AND LUNGS,
            Which leads thee through the rhythm of Time
            Into the feeling of thine own soul being.
            Practice SPIRIT-CONTEMPLATIO
            Within Soul's even balance,
            Where the world-evolving deeds upsurging
            Unite thy very Self with Cosmic Selfhood-
            And thou shall feel the Truth
            In human Soul-Endeavor!
            For the Christ=Will enriching doth reign
            In the rhythms of the world, blessing Souls.
            Ye Spirits of Light!
            Let from the East be enkindled
            What in the West taketh form,
            It speaks:
            IN CHRIST DEATH BECOMES LIFE.
            Spirit Beings hear it in East, West, North, South;
            May human beings hear it!

            III

            Soul of Man!
            Thou livest in the RESTING HEAD,
            Which from eternal sources
            Unlocks world thoughts to thee.
            Practice SPIRIT AWARENESS
            In stillness of thought,
            Where eternal aims divine grant Cosmic Being's Light
            To the very Self, to use as it wills
            And thou shalt think the Truth
            In depths of human Spirit.

            For the Spirit's Cosmic Thoughts do reign
            In Cosmic Being, Light Imploring.
            Ye Spirits of Soul!
            Let prayers arise from the Depths
            Which in the Heights will be heard,
            It speaks:
            IN THE SPIRIT'S COSMIC THOUGHTS THE SOUL AWAKENS.
            Spirit Beings hear it in East, West, North, South;
            May human beings hear it!

            ==========================
            "These three stanzas give expression to the strongest imaginable
            challenge to the human soul, a challenge to human beings who have
            prepared themselves, or who have the will to prepare themselves by
            study and practice of the truths of spiritual science and by their own
            soul-deepening, to travel the path which leads to awareness of the
            spirit and to life in accord with the spirit. Such a forceful call
            could come only out of confidence in this good will and Rudolf Steiner
            gave it new enthusiasm by the directing power of the Foundation Stone
            Mantram which would affect the hearts and souls of all those present
            in Dornach either in person or in spirit. This mantram, united with
            will, borne by the love of truth, forms the living foundation for an
            association of people who intend to take as their task the nurture of
            the Spirit-Being Anthrops Sophia. Cosmic forces rest as living
            substance in these words; they can still unfold their creative
            activity today in anyone who conceives them within his own soul and
            relives them over and over again. They can become the Foundation Stone
            upon which he may build, if he dedicates his will to the furthering
            and development of the General Anthroposophical Society for the sake
            of the progress of human evolution. ..."

            Blessings,

            Sheila

            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
            > Mr. Mason wrote:
            >
            > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
            >
            > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
            >
            > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
            >
            > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
            >
            > > [brackets mine]
            >
            >
            > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
            > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
            > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
            > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
            > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
            > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
            > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
            > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
            > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
            > dies.
            >
            >
            >
            > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
            > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized by
            > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
            >
            >
            >
            > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
            > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
            > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
            > Until then, you guys are on your own.
            >
            > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
            > >
            > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
            > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
            > > material onto the Internet---and those
            > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
            > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
            > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
            > > control of ideas.<<
            > >
            > > Robert writes:
            > >
            > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
            > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
            > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
            > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
            > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
            > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
            > > flood it with disinformation.
            > >
            > > Matthew wrote:
            > >
            > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
            > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
            > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
            > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
            > > see any major political conflicts arising
            > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
            > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
            > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
            > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
            > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
            > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
            > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
            > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
            > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
            > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
            > > flattering themselves with the idea that
            > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
            > > opposite is true.<<
            > >
            > > Robert writes:
            > >
            > > That's an interesting perception of the
            > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
            > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
            > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
            > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
            > > the outlook that is normal in the society
            > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
            > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
            > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
            > > matter as to how much the encounter with
            > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
            > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
            > >
            > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
            > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
            > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
            > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
            > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
            > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
            > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
            > > appear to be on the physical plane.
            > >
            > > Therefore, just having any connection with
            > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
            > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
            > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
            > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
            > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
            > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
            > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
            > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
            > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
            > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
            > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
            > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
            > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
            > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
            > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
            > > way?
            > >
            > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
            > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
            > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
            > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
            > > question I was asking, and asking whether
            > > traditional American respect for freedom would
            > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
            > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
            > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
            > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
            > >
            > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
            > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
            > >
            > > Robert Mason
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            ________________________________________________________________________\
            > ____________
            > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
            > Yahoo! FareChase.
            > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
            > >
            >
          • Robert Mason
            ... you re seeing something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see. You re a bright person. Maybe you re right and Anthroposophy is a world-force
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 29, 2007
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              To Matthew Morrell, who wrote:

              >>I'll at least accept the possibility that
              you're seeing something in the heart of
              Anthroposophists that I cannot see. You're a
              bright person. Maybe you're right and
              Anthroposophy is a world-force around the globe
              capable of intimidating the New World Order.
              Where as I see a movement riddled with
              neurosis, I'm open to the possibility that
              there is a silent majority out there that I
              haven't encountered who have the spiritual
              wisdom to illuminate the world. Maybe they're
              the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
              Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream
              Christianity atrophies and dies.<<

              Robert writes:

              I was trying to get at the idea that the
              Truth and the spiritual power that is
              inherent in Anthroposophy itself (that is,
              the spiritual Beings Who inspire and guide
              Anthroposophy on both sides of the Veil) are
              more threatening to the dark power-occultic
              agenda than are the capacities and wisdom of
              Anthroposophists on Earth. Steiner once
              compared the state of earthly Anthroposophy in
              his day to the state of early Christianity in
              the Roman Empire: Christianity was persecuted
              and had to survive literally underground in the
              catacombs for several centuries before it could
              emerge to shape the larger structures of
              society. (The Roman power-occultists at last
              decided that, since they could not exterminate
              Christianity, they would "co-opt" it into the
              Roman Catholic Church. Even so, the real power
              in Christianity lived on to move human/social
              evolution forward.) Likewise, Anthroposophy
              might have to live a "catacomb"-life for
              several centuries before ideas such as the
              *threefold commonwealth* could shape the larger
              societies.

              The activities of Anthroposophists on Earth
              are not wholly irrelevant to all this, but
              even if we can do no more than keep the spark
              alive, then, whatever our failures, Anthroposophy
              might yet emerge to shape the larger world
              of politics, economics, and culture. The
              dark power-occultists see this "danger" to
              their aims, thus they are a danger to Anthros
              on Earth.

              I don't think that the "new vision" of the
              Ethereal Christ depends essentially on the
              activities of Anthros on Earth; that vision is
              coming anyway, as Steiner prophesied.

              Matthew wrote:

              >>When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking
              around with their asinine conspiracy theories,
              their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
              hatred of the United States, wake me up and
              I'll pick up my sword. Until then, you guys
              are on your own.<<

              Robert writes:

              I don't know which "Anthroposophists" you are
              talking about; your characterization hardly
              describes Anthros-in-general as I have
              encountered them. If you're giving your
              perception of me in particular, then that
              perception is wrong; the only truth in it is
              that I do believe that conspiracies exist.

              Robert M







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            • christopherraymond_bio
              Dear Mathew, Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit and Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a required
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 29, 2007
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                Dear Mathew,

                Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit and
                Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
                required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
                Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
                revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep these
                matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are often
                closely linked together.

                For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical Movement
                who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is aware
                that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman Cannot Law",
                or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in place
                that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common Law or
                Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the Constitution
                of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
                requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can show
                YOU the law.

                Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land" is
                nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of America".
                Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
                corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
                However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
                sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many people are
                knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why on the
                bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank Note, or
                Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as in
                GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is why,
                it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
                illegal to file for an amount less than what the government assumes
                you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in mind also,
                that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any debt, or
                to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay goes
                straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the Founding
                Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with blood. I
                do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the words of
                Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America and
                what happened in Germany will not happen in America.

                I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
                colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but to be
                forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax without
                representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
                servants and NOT free men.

                That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further and
                upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income tax for
                now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that they are
                not even following the very rules that they themselves put in place
                and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail here but
                the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy, or a
                back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?

                Chris


                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Mr. Mason wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
                >
                > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
                >
                > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
                >
                > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
                >
                > > [brackets mine]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
                > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
                > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
                > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
                > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
                > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
                > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
                > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
                > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
                > dies.
                >
                >
                >
                > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
                > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized by
                > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
                >
                >
                >
                > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
                > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
                > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
                > Until then, you guys are on your own.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
                > >
                > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
                > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
                > > material onto the Internet---and those
                > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
                > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
                > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
                > > control of ideas.<<
                > >
                > > Robert writes:
                > >
                > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
                > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
                > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
                > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
                > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
                > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
                > > flood it with disinformation.
                > >
                > > Matthew wrote:
                > >
                > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
                > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
                > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
                > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
                > > see any major political conflicts arising
                > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
                > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
                > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
                > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
                > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
                > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
                > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
                > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
                > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
                > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
                > > flattering themselves with the idea that
                > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
                > > opposite is true.<<
                > >
                > > Robert writes:
                > >
                > > That's an interesting perception of the
                > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
                > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
                > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
                > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
                > > the outlook that is normal in the society
                > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
                > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
                > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
                > > matter as to how much the encounter with
                > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
                > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
                > >
                > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
                > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
                > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
                > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
                > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
                > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
                > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
                > > appear to be on the physical plane.
                > >
                > > Therefore, just having any connection with
                > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
                > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
                > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
                > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
                > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
                > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
                > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
                > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
                > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
                > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
                > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
                > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
                > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
                > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
                > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
                > > way?
                > >
                > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
                > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
                > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
                > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
                > > question I was asking, and asking whether
                > > traditional American respect for freedom would
                > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
                > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
                > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
                > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
                > >
                > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
                > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
                > >
                > > Robert Mason
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                ________________________________________________________________________\
                > ____________
                > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                > Yahoo! FareChase.
                > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                > >
                >
              • Mathew Morrell
                ... who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is aware that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or Roman Cannot Law , or law of the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 29, 2007
                • 0 Attachment

                  >For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical Movement

                  who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is aware
                  that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman Cannot Law",
                  or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in place
                  that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common Law or
                  Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the Constitution
                  of America , or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
                  requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can show
                  YOU the law.

                  A lot of good thoughts there, Chris.  You're a true rebel. 

                  I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law.  But at least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-Canada, and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid violence than create it un-necessarily.  Both of us would rather see the Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and free discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we know who the victor will be.  

                  The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants with pitch forks, and it won them Napoleon.  On a massive scale the working man usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them Lenin, Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all.  The German beer hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler.  In each instance, good intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny was all that followed. 

                  For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be pulled into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution ends.   Our Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct motives, and foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead.  Our revolution must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.

                  Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of jail, and leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse working through our Time Spirit.  He'll right the ship in ways that you or I can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.

                       


                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio" <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Mathew,
                  >
                  > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit and
                  > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
                  > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
                  > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
                  > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep these
                  > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are often
                  > closely linked together.
                  >
                  > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical Movement
                  > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is aware
                  > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman Cannot Law",
                  > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in place
                  > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common Law or
                  > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the Constitution
                  > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
                  > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can show
                  > YOU the law.
                  >
                  > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land" is
                  > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of America".
                  > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
                  > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
                  > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
                  > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many people are
                  > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why on the
                  > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank Note, or
                  > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as in
                  > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is why,
                  > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
                  > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government assumes
                  > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in mind also,
                  > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any debt, or
                  > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay goes
                  > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the Founding
                  > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with blood. I
                  > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the words of
                  > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America and
                  > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
                  >
                  > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
                  > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but to be
                  > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax without
                  > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
                  > servants and NOT free men.
                  >
                  > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further and
                  > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income tax for
                  > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that they are
                  > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in place
                  > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail here but
                  > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy, or a
                  > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Mr. Mason wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
                  > >
                  > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
                  > >
                  > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
                  > >
                  > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
                  > >
                  > > > [brackets mine]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
                  > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
                  > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
                  > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
                  > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
                  > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
                  > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
                  > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
                  > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
                  > > dies.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
                  > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized by
                  > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
                  > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
                  > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
                  > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
                  > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
                  > > > material onto the Internet---and those
                  > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
                  > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
                  > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
                  > > > control of ideas.<<
                  > > >
                  > > > Robert writes:
                  > > >
                  > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
                  > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
                  > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
                  > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
                  > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
                  > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
                  > > > flood it with disinformation.
                  > > >
                  > > > Matthew wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
                  > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
                  > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
                  > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
                  > > > see any major political conflicts arising
                  > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
                  > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
                  > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
                  > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
                  > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
                  > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
                  > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
                  > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
                  > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
                  > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
                  > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
                  > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
                  > > > opposite is true.<<
                  > > >
                  > > > Robert writes:
                  > > >
                  > > > That's an interesting perception of the
                  > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
                  > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
                  > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
                  > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
                  > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
                  > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
                  > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
                  > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
                  > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
                  > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
                  > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
                  > > >
                  > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
                  > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
                  > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
                  > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
                  > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
                  > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
                  > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
                  > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
                  > > >
                  > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
                  > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
                  > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
                  > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
                  > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
                  > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
                  > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
                  > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
                  > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
                  > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
                  > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
                  > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
                  > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
                  > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
                  > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
                  > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
                  > > > way?
                  > > >
                  > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
                  > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
                  > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
                  > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
                  > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
                  > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
                  > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
                  > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
                  > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
                  > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
                  > > >
                  > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
                  > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
                  > > >
                  > > > Robert Mason
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > ________________________________________________________________________\
                  > > ____________
                  > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                  > > Yahoo! FareChase.
                  > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Durward Starman
                  *******I think you re right, Matthew. The Ahrimanic World Order seldom directly censors or openly confronts spiritual truth, when it s much easier to adopt a
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    *******I think you're right, Matthew. The Ahrimanic World Order seldom
                    directly censors or openly confronts spiritual truth, when it's much easier
                    to adopt a two- or three-pronged strategy of ridiculing it when appropriate,
                    co-opting it if possible, and working to undermine it behind the scenes. So
                    anthroposophic medicine is ridiculed--- all you need to is refer to someone
                    as a "quack" when a brief mention is made of anything other than materialist
                    medicine--- and the Waldorf Schools have been flooded with leftists, even
                    though to anyone with a clear mind, Marxism and anthroposophy are like oil
                    and water. Offer people a "European" education with a few ideas borrowed
                    from Waldorf, and even perhaps vouchers so people will still keep condemning
                    their kids to public schools. As one thinker said, When the government
                    controls the schools it does not need to control the press.

                    There is only one way to keep from being co-opted: that's to think in
                    clear, objective principles just what spiritual science is and keep it
                    before you at all times. It's this: in our age we are dualists, we accept
                    that there is matter and that can be investigated scientifically, and then
                    there is what is immaterial and that is the domain of faith and belief only.
                    We reject this sick philosophy. We are monists. There is only one world. It
                    can all be investigated. There are no limits to knowledge except those Man
                    imposes on himself. We can investigate spirit and soul as much as matter---
                    and, moreover, any investigation of matter which leaves the latter two out,
                    results in AT BEST only partial truths, and, at worst, complete illusions.

                    -Starman
                    www.DrStarman.com





                    >From: "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...>
                    >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [steiner] Re: Gulags for Anthros?
                    >Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:07:30 -0000
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >If they start censoring Steiner's lectures, don't fret. Start
                    >uploading his censored material onto the Internet---and those teachings,
                    >in turn, will become more available than they are now. In our time, the
                    >Internet is our greatest weapon against totalitarian control of ideas.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >To upload material onto the Internet:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > * first scan the written material onto your computer * save it in
                    >some document format, preferably as a pdf file. * find an Internet
                    >hosting agent (register under an alias) * upload your document using
                    >the Internet authoring software of your choice, such as Dreamweaver.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >When they remove your Web page, upload the material again through
                    >another hosting agent.
                    >
                    >Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from totalitarianism, that's kind of an
                    >oxymoron, isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view of
                    >Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't see any major political
                    >conflicts arising anytime soon between the New World Order and
                    >Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average Anthroposophist being
                    >locked up in a re-education camp or a Gulag.
                    >
                    >In fact, I see the opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
                    >average Anthroposophist are in perfect agreement on so many issues (i.e.
                    >gun control, immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the two spheres
                    >almost seem to be an extension of one another. Anthroposophists should
                    >stop flattering themselves with the idea that they're radical
                    >intellectuals, when quite the opposite is true.
                    >
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    More photos, more messages, more storage�get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
                    http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
                  • Durward Starman
                    *******All I can say about fears for the future is what Dr. Steiner said, and advised us to do, in the attached JPEG. If Ahriman prevents it from going through
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      *******All I can say about fears for the future is what Dr. Steiner said,
                      and advised us to do, in the attached JPEG. If Ahriman prevents it from
                      going through (as Yahoo now prevents anything as living as an image from
                      going through in e-mail, only the dead letter), I'll type it out. It's a
                      mantra for saying morning and evening to work with the Michaelic forces.
                      Steiner says in introducing it that we must have no fear for what comes to
                      us from the future but know it is guided by a world- intelligence of wisdom
                      and love. I see hopeful signs in what you describe, especially here in the
                      U.S.

                      Starman

                      www.DrStarman.com





                      >From: Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>
                      >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, steiner@yahoogroups.com,
                      >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [steiner] Gulags for Anthros?
                      >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
                      >
                      >To all:
                      >
                      >Sometime back, "Christine" wrote:
                      >
                      > >>I have said in the past (only once or twice,
                      >because I had my head bitten off!) that
                      >whenever a person comes to the [Waldorf]
                      >movement as a perspective parent or teacher,
                      >that they should first be warned that they
                      >would be getting into something extremely
                      >dangerous. That there is a real possibility
                      >that they and their families could face
                      >concentration camps or execution in the not so
                      >distant future from their association with this
                      >movement. Of course we could NEVER say this!
                      >What would happen to enrollment figures!!?? But
                      >it is true. We are living in perilous times.
                      >Some day, historians will look back and say
                      >"Didn't they realize that they were in an era
                      >more dangerous than the one leading to
                      >Hitler?"<<
                      >(Yahoo anthroposophy_tomorrow: Message #32094:
                      >"I still haven't heard from anybody who has
                      >actually checked this out.")
                      >
                      >Robert writes:
                      >
                      >Some might dismiss the above as "paranoia", but
                      >I would stop and think about it a few minutes,
                      >at least. We all know very well that
                      >Anthroposophy has always aroused fierce, even
                      >murderous, opposition: witness "The Fire" and
                      >the (very probable) poisoning of Steiner
                      >himself. And those of us who are paying
                      >attention to current world events (at least
                      >those of us who are not blinded by prejudice
                      >against "conspiracy theories" etc.) have to be
                      >aware that deeply evil forces are working to
                      >gain world power, have already gained much, and
                      >are at the point of making a desperate gamble
                      >for total power. This is becoming so obvious
                      >that many observers, even non-occultists and
                      >non-Anthros such a Alex Jones, see that dark
                      >occultism is behind this power grab.
                      >
                      >And we should be aware that the demonic beings
                      >who inspire these power occultists have a deep,
                      >abiding hatred for the Christ and for human
                      >freedom. It follows that these beings do have
                      >very unpleasant intentions toward real
                      >Christianity on Earth, and therefore especially
                      >toward Anthroposophy as the prime public,
                      >cultural manifestation of the Christ working
                      >toward true human freedom. If anyone might
                      >doubt just how unpleasant these intentions can
                      >be, one need only consider the mountains of
                      >human corpses piled up in the last century by
                      >political power.
                      >
                      >And those of us who keep an eye on the Internet
                      >probably have some idea of how such hatred
                      >manifests in the campaign against Anthroposophy
                      >as being "racist" etc. Many of us have had
                      >some experience with the "Waldorf Critics", who
                      >(at least the most active among the regulars
                      >there) reveal this hatred relentlessly at work.
                      >Probably most of those WC people are not
                      >conscious of the forces that move them, or of
                      >where their efforts are ultimately leading, but
                      >the destructive, perverse energy is readily
                      >apparent there. And if one keeps an eye out
                      >over there, one might sometimes even run across
                      >some useful information, for instance:
                      >
                      >(Yahoo waldorf-critics: Message #545: "Germany
                      >is considering to censor Steiner")
                      > >>Alex R�hle reports that Germany is
                      >considering whether to censor two volumes from
                      >the collected works of Rudolf Steiner for
                      >racist content. A new study by historian Helmut
                      >Zander - ("Anthroposophie in Deutschland",
                      >Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht), examines the attitudes
                      >of this founder of the Waldorf Schools, and
                      >shows how he reflected the thinking of his day.
                      >In two lecture series, one from 1908 and the
                      >other from 1910, Steiner "investigated the
                      >various human races in terms of their skin
                      >colour and their standing in the development of
                      >humankind." In short, says Zander, Steiner
                      >found "blacks to be an imperfect, earlier
                      >model, whereas whites are the fulfilment of the
                      >goal of human evolution... He formulated an
                      >ethnology in which the terms 'degenerate,' or
                      >'backward,' or 'future' races was not
                      >accidental, but rather the result of a well
                      >planned evolution curriculum."<<
                      >
                      >Robert continues:
                      >
                      >Of course the campaign of destructive
                      >distortion against Anthroposophy springs from
                      >causes far deeper than any putative concern
                      >about so-called "racism", but in this charge of
                      >"racism" the enemies of Anthroposophy have
                      >found a bludgeon that sometimes "works" all too
                      >well in the current political-cultural climate.
                      >And this bludgeon can be more deadly in much of
                      >Europe now than in the USA. In much of Europe
                      >the traditions of "freedom of speech" are much
                      >weaker than in the USA, and people who say the
                      >"wrong" things can be, and are, put into prison
                      >on a regular basis. Here is an instructive
                      >recent example:
                      >
                      >(http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2211
                      >*The Brussels Journal*
                      >"Secularist Europe Silences Pro-Lifers and
                      >Creationists"
                      >From the desk of Paul Belien on Sat, 2007-06-23
                      >18:53)
                      >
                      > >>Last week, a German court sentenced a 55-year
                      >old Lutheran pastor to one year in jail for
                      >"Volksverhetzung" (incitement of the people)
                      >because he compared the killing of the unborn
                      >in contemporary Germany to the holocaust. . . .
                      >Without legalized abortion the number of German
                      >children would increase annually by at least
                      >150,000 -- which is the number of legal
                      >abortions in birth dearth Germany. Pastor
                      >Johannes Lerle compared the killing of the
                      >unborn to the killing of the Jews in Auschwitz
                      >during the Second World War. On 14 June, a
                      >court in Erlangen ruled that, in doing so, the
                      >pastor had "incited the people" because his
                      >statement was a denial of the holocaust of the
                      >Jews in Nazi-Germany. Hence, Herr Lerle was
                      >sentenced to one year in jail. Earlier, he had
                      >already spent eight months in jail for calling
                      >abortionists "professional killers" -- an
                      >allegation which the court ruled to be
                      >slanderous because, according to the court, the
                      >unborn are not humans. Other German courts
                      >convicted pro-lifers for saying that "in
                      >abortion clinics, life unworthy of living is
                      >being killed," because this terminology evoked
                      >Hitler's euthanasia program, which used the
                      >same language. In 2005, a German pro-lifer,
                      >G�nter Annen, was sentenced to 50 days in jail
                      >for saying "Stop unjust [rechtswidrige]
                      >abortions in [medical] practice," because,
                      >according to the court, the expression "unjust"
                      >is understood by laymen as meaning illegal,
                      >which abortions are not. . . . <<
                      >
                      >Robert continues:
                      >
                      >The inmates have been running the asylum in
                      >Germany for a long time, but now they are
                      >apparently not even pretending to be sane. For
                      >many years anyone there who publicly expressed
                      >doubts about the official history of the
                      >"Holocaust" has been liable to time in the
                      >slammer, but now even someone who expressed no
                      >such doubts at all but only likened the
                      >abortion plague to the putative "Holocaust" has
                      >been put in prison for . . . "denial of the
                      >holocaust". When such a legal violation of
                      >basic liberty expands into such a blatant
                      >violation of logic itself, one might well
                      >wonder what violations are coming next.
                      >
                      >It's not much of stretch to see that if
                      >criticism of abortion could be
                      >"Volksverhetzung", then promulgation of such
                      >Anthroposophical "racism" as cited above could
                      >be just as well. If we don't think that the
                      >widespread campaign against Anthro "racism"
                      >isn't working toward such legal attacks,
                      >especially in Europe, then I think we are being
                      >na�ve indeed. Again, maybe not all these
                      >"critics" of Anthro "racism" are conscious of
                      >this tendency, but nevertheless they are in
                      >fact preparing the ground.
                      >
                      >To get a fuller view of the political climate
                      >in Europe, we can read more of the article:
                      >
                      > >>In Germany, believing [sic] abortion to be as
                      >murderous as the holocaust is a crime, and
                      >educating your own children is a crime too. In
                      >France, saying that "homosexual behaviour
                      >endangers the survival of humanity" is a crime,
                      >and so is the distribution of pork soup to the
                      >poor. In Belgium, speaking out against
                      >immigration is a crime. In the latest issue of
                      >the Dutch conservative magazine Bitter Lemon
                      >the Dutch author Erik van Goor writes that
                      >European courts are silencing conservative and
                      >orthodox citizens. Freedom of speech no longer
                      >exist, says van Goor. "While many in the West
                      >still idolize the second-hand fighters for free
                      >speech, such as [Ayaan] Hirsi Ali and Theo van
                      >Gogh, the true victims of curtailment are
                      >deliberately kept under wraps. Hirsi Ali, [Pim]
                      >Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were not curtailed by
                      >the state or by court, Johannes Lerle is. The
                      >former voiced mere opinions -- expressions of a
                      >public opinion which one may or may not value
                      >or believe. The latter -- Dr Lerle -- shows
                      >that what is at stake is not merely opinions,
                      >but a moral order which is being questioned; a
                      >reality of life and death which is at risk."
                      >
                      > >>Hirsi Ali, Fortuyn and van Gogh did not
                      >defend Europe's traditional Christian moral
                      >order. People such as Johannes Lerle and
                      >Christian Vanneste, the French parliamentarian
                      >who was convicted for "homophobia," do. The
                      >latter are being persecuted by Western Europe's
                      >political regimes -- a phenomenon which is
                      >ignored completely by the Western mainstream
                      >media, who participate in the persecution.<<
                      >
                      >Robert continues:
                      >
                      >And we can get some idea of what kind of new
                      >violations of basic liberties are "in the
                      >works":
                      >
                      > >>Next week, the Council of Europe is going to
                      >vote on a resolution imposing Darwinism as
                      >Europe's official ideology. The European
                      >governments are asked to fight the expression
                      >of creationist opinions, such as young earth
                      >and intelligent design theories. According to
                      >the Council of Europe these theories are
                      >"undemocratic" and "a threat to human rights."
                      >
                      > >>Volksverhetzung is a crime which the Nazis
                      >often invoked against their enemies and which
                      >contemporary Germany also uses to intimidate
                      >homeschoolers. Soon, the German authorities
                      >will be able to use the same charge against
                      >people who question Darwin's evolution theory.
                      >Indeed, next Tuesday, the Council of Europe
                      >(CoE), Europe's main human-rights body, will
                      >vote on a proposal which advocates the fight
                      >against creationism, "young earth" and
                      >"intelligent design" in its 47 member states.
                      >According to a report of the CoE's
                      >Parliamentary Assembly, creationists are
                      >dangerous "religious fundamentalists" who
                      >propagate "forms of religious extremism" and
                      >"could become a threat to human rights." The
                      >report adds that the acceptance of the science
                      >of evolutionism "is crucial to the future of
                      >our societies and our democracies."
                      >"Creationism, born of the denial of the
                      >evolution of species through natural selection,
                      >was for a long time an almost exclusively
                      >American phenomenon," the report says. "Today
                      >creationist theories are tending to find their
                      >way into Europe and their spread is affecting
                      >quite a few Council of Europe member states. .
                      >. . [T]his is liable to encourage the
                      >development of all manner of fundamentalism and
                      >extremism, synonymous with attacks of utmost
                      >virulence on human rights. The total rejection
                      >of science is definitely one of the most
                      >serious threats to human rights and civic
                      >rights. . . . The war on the theory of
                      >evolution and on its proponents most often
                      >originates in forms of religious extremism
                      >which are closely allied to extreme right-wing
                      >political movements. The creationist movements
                      >possess real political power. The fact of the
                      >matter, and this has been exposed on several
                      >occasions, is that the advocates of strict
                      >creationism are out to replace democracy by
                      >theocracy. [...] If we are not careful, the
                      >values that are the very essence of the Council
                      >of Europe will be under direct threat from
                      >creationist fundamentalists."
                      >
                      > >>According to the CoE report, America and
                      >Australia are already on their way towards
                      >becoming such undemocratic theocracies where
                      >human and civic rights are endangered.
                      >Creationism is "well-developed in the English-
                      >speaking countries, especially the United
                      >States and Australia," the report states.
                      >"While most curricula in Europe today
                      >unashamedly teach evolution as a recognised
                      >scientific theory, the same does not apply to
                      >the United States. In July 2005, the Pew
                      >Research Center conducted a poll that showed
                      >that 64% of Americans favoured the teaching of
                      >intelligent design alongside the theory of
                      >evolution and that 38% would support the total
                      >abandonment of the teaching of evolution in
                      >publicly owned schools. The American President
                      >George W. Bush supports the principle of
                      >teaching both intelligent design and the theory
                      >of evolution. At the moment, 20 of the 50
                      >American states are facing potential
                      >adjustments of their school curricula in favour
                      >of intelligent design. Many people think that
                      >this phenomenon only affects the United States
                      >and that, even if it is not possible to be
                      >indifferent to what is happening on the other
                      >side of the Atlantic, it is not the Council of
                      >Europe's role to deal with this issue. That,
                      >however, is not the case. On the contrary, it
                      >would seem crucial for us to take the
                      >appropriate precautions in our 47 member
                      >states."
                      >
                      >Robert writes:
                      >
                      >But at least this proposal have been "put on
                      >the back burner", for now;
                      >
                      > >>Update A quote from Reuters, 25 June 2007:
                      >Europe's main human rights body on Monday
                      >cancelled a scheduled vote on banning
                      >creationist and intelligent design views from
                      >school science classes, saying the proposed
                      >resolution was one-sided. . . . Guy Lengagne,
                      >the French Socialist member of the Assembly who
                      >drew up the report, protested after the
                      >Parliamentary Assembly voted to call off the
                      >debate and vote, and [approved a proposal of
                      >the Flemish Christian-Democrat Luc Van den
                      >Brande] to send the report back to committee
                      >for further study. . . . Deputies said the
                      >motion by the Christian Democratic group of
                      >parliamentarians also won support from east
                      >European deputies, who recalled that Darwinian
                      >evolution was a favorite theory of their former
                      >communist rulers.<<
                      >
                      >Robert comments:
                      >
                      >And at least those who have lived under outright
                      >Communism can see where all this is headed.
                      >Perhaps an unintended consequence of EU push
                      >into the Slavic areas is that those survivors
                      >of Bolshevism will act as a restraint on the
                      >Western atheistic-materialist mind-control
                      >agenda?
                      >
                      >And, while those of us living in the USA might
                      >allow ourselves a sad, weary smile at the
                      >apparent credence that the CoE gives to the
                      >American President's alleged support of the
                      >dreaded "creationism", perhaps that horrified
                      >fear of this particular kind of Americanism
                      >still might point out a real difference between
                      >Europe and the USA. Just considering the facts
                      >that a major US politician at least gives "lip
                      >service" to a resistance to rampant Darwinism
                      >and that those polls show such a resistance
                      >among the American population, these facts seem
                      >to show something that might seem paradoxical
                      >to Anthros who are familiar with the idea that
                      >cultural materialism in the world comes
                      >primarily from America. It might well be that,
                      >despite the many years of pervasive,
                      >materialistic-Darwinistic "education", there
                      >still remains among the American people a deep,
                      >widespread, instinctive hold on at least some
                      >elements of a spiritual worldview. To this
                      >American observer, such instincts do not seem
                      >to be as pervasive and widespread among the
                      >European population, at least not in Western
                      >and Central Europe. (Perhaps some Europeans
                      >here might wish to comment on this observation?)
                      >
                      >I get the feeling, or at least the hope, that,
                      >given this instinctive American spirituality
                      >and the strong American tradition of "freedom
                      >of speech", such legal atrocities as that
                      >committed against Pastor Lerle are still not
                      >possible here in the USA. And likewise, I get
                      >the feeling that moves to censor Anthroposophy,
                      >or to imprison outspoken Anthros for promoting
                      >"racism" or whatnot, are not as great a danger
                      >in the US as they are in Germany and much of
                      >Europe. Not yet, anyway.
                      >
                      >I realize that there are powerful forces
                      >working to make such dangers real in the US,
                      >still it seems to me that the main attacks
                      >against spirituality and freedom in the US come
                      >not so much in the form of legal prohibitions
                      >but rather in the form of making people
                      >inwardly incapable of spiritual freedom. This
                      >American oppression comes from the combined
                      >might of economic and cultural perversions,
                      >mainly through "public education" but also
                      >through the financial "rat race", movies,
                      >"music", television, forced drugging, forced
                      >vaccinations, poisoned food, poisoned water,
                      >electromagnetic poisoning, etc., etc. (Such
                      >expos�s as that brought by Christine from
                      >Charlotte Iserbyt are enlightening in this
                      >regard.)
                      >
                      >I'm not saying that direct, legal attacks
                      >against freedom in the USA are not "in the
                      >works"; surely they are. But it seems that
                      >there is yet enough resistance, or potential
                      >resistance, in the American people so that the
                      >Powers That Be are not quite ready to make that
                      >final move. Not only the instinctive American
                      >spirituality and respect for personal freedom
                      >act as restraints on those Powers, but so also
                      >does the brute fact that the American people
                      >are armed, as well as the paradoxical fact
                      >that, to some extent, technology seems to be
                      >backfiring on the Ahrimanic powers: for
                      >instance, the "9-11 truth movement" could
                      >hardly have reached its present strength
                      >without the Internet. So many people are
                      >"waking up" that this movement could become a
                      >*real* problem for the Powers That Be in the US
                      >-- perhaps.
                      >
                      >But maybe I'm indulging in wishful thinking?
                      >Still, I do have the feeling that European
                      >Anthros should be more worried about being sent
                      >to the Gulags than should American Anthros, at
                      >least for now. I'd be interested to get and
                      >compare comments from European and American
                      >Anthroposophists on this question.
                      >
                      >Robert Mason
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Now you can see trouble�before he arrives
                      http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507
                    • Durward Starman
                      *******Well, the main anthroposophists I ve run into with loony conspiracy theories are here on the internet. If you re a parent in a Waldorf School and start
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
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                        *******Well, the main anthroposophists I've run into with loony conspiracy
                        theories are here on the internet. If you're a parent in a Waldorf School
                        and start going off the deep end with stuff like that, everyone will change
                        the subject or leave you to argue with some drunks or something. ;->

                        But it's certainly true that a lot of young people join bio-dynamic farms
                        and similar things out of alienation and are often politically nut-jobs.

                        I have never met an anti-Semitic anthroposophist, though. Quite the
                        opposite, I've known many Jewish ones and others who made a special study of
                        Judaism.

                        Starman

                        www.DrStarman.com





                        >From: "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...>
                        >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [steiner] Re: Gulags for Anthros?
                        >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:55:48 -0000
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Mr. Mason wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
                        >
                        > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
                        >
                        > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
                        >
                        > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
                        >
                        > > [brackets mine]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
                        >something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
                        >You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
                        >a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
                        >Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
                        >the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
                        >haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
                        >world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
                        >Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
                        >dies.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
                        >illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized by
                        >God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
                        >conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
                        >hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
                        >Until then, you guys are on your own.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >--- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>
                        >wrote:
                        > >
                        > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
                        > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
                        > > material onto the Internet---and those
                        > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
                        > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
                        > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
                        > > control of ideas.<<
                        > >
                        > > Robert writes:
                        > >
                        > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
                        > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
                        > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
                        > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
                        > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
                        > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
                        > > flood it with disinformation.
                        > >
                        > > Matthew wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
                        > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
                        > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
                        > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
                        > > see any major political conflicts arising
                        > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
                        > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
                        > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
                        > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
                        > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
                        > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
                        > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
                        > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
                        > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
                        > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
                        > > flattering themselves with the idea that
                        > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
                        > > opposite is true.<<
                        > >
                        > > Robert writes:
                        > >
                        > > That's an interesting perception of the
                        > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
                        > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
                        > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
                        > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
                        > > the outlook that is normal in the society
                        > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
                        > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
                        > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
                        > > matter as to how much the encounter with
                        > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
                        > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
                        > >
                        > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
                        > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
                        > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
                        > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
                        > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
                        > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
                        > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
                        > > appear to be on the physical plane.
                        > >
                        > > Therefore, just having any connection with
                        > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
                        > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
                        > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
                        > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
                        > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
                        > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
                        > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
                        > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
                        > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
                        > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
                        > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
                        > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
                        > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
                        > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
                        > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
                        > > way?
                        > >
                        > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
                        > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
                        > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
                        > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
                        > > question I was asking, and asking whether
                        > > traditional American respect for freedom would
                        > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
                        > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
                        > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
                        > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
                        > >
                        > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
                        > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
                        > >
                        > > Robert Mason
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >________________________________________________________________________\
                        >____________
                        > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                        >Yahoo! FareChase.
                        > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                        > >
                        >

                        _________________________________________________________________
                        A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
                        http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
                      • christopherraymond_bio
                        Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom, it is temporal freedom
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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                          Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants
                          less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom, it
                          is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
                          what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
                          Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than does
                          the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
                          appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
                          travel into America today and this must reflect something more than
                          "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
                          Constitution.

                          I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
                          French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be forced
                          upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my obligations
                          are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I am
                          behaving myself.

                          I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics, business,
                          banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many socialists
                          are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-called
                          republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada is in
                          shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this to
                          it being a socialist nation and having too much government
                          involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of drugs
                          sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
                          themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
                          government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they still
                          call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-enterprise.
                          When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
                          things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
                          acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur and
                          all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong" and
                          not titles.

                          Chris

                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
                          >

                          >
                          > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
                          >
                          > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
                          > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law. But at
                          > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
                          > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-Canada,
                          > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid violence
                          > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
                          > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and free
                          > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we know who
                          > the victor will be.
                          >
                          > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants with pitch
                          > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the working man
                          > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them Lenin,
                          > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The German beer
                          > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance, good
                          > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny was all
                          > that followed.
                          >
                          > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be pulled
                          > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution ends. Our
                          > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct motives, and
                          > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our revolution
                          > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
                          > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
                          >
                          > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of jail, and
                          > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse working
                          > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you or I
                          > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                          > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Mathew,
                          > >
                          > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit and
                          > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
                          > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
                          > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
                          > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep these
                          > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are often
                          > > closely linked together.
                          > >
                          > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical Movement
                          > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is aware
                          > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman Cannot Law",
                          > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in place
                          > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common Law or
                          > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the Constitution
                          > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
                          > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can show
                          > > YOU the law.
                          > >
                          > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land" is
                          > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of America".
                          > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
                          > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
                          > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
                          > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many people are
                          > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why on the
                          > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank Note, or
                          > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as in
                          > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is why,
                          > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
                          > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government assumes
                          > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in mind also,
                          > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any debt, or
                          > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay goes
                          > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the Founding
                          > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with blood. I
                          > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the words of
                          > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America and
                          > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
                          > >
                          > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
                          > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but to be
                          > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax without
                          > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
                          > > servants and NOT free men.
                          > >
                          > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further and
                          > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income tax for
                          > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that they are
                          > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in place
                          > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail here but
                          > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy, or a
                          > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
                          > >
                          > > Chris
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
                          > > >
                          > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
                          > > >
                          > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
                          > > >
                          > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
                          > > >
                          > > > > [brackets mine]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
                          > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
                          > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy is
                          > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the New World
                          > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm open to
                          > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there that I
                          > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to illuminate the
                          > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new vision of
                          > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity atrophies and
                          > > > dies.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---an
                          > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism, spiritualized
                          > by
                          > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their asinine
                          > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their sickening
                          > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my sword.
                          > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
                          > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
                          > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
                          > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
                          > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
                          > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
                          > > > > control of ideas.<<
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Robert writes:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
                          > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
                          > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
                          > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
                          > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
                          > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
                          > > > > flood it with disinformation.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Matthew wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
                          > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
                          > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
                          > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
                          > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
                          > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
                          > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
                          > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
                          > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
                          > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
                          > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
                          > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
                          > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
                          > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
                          > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
                          > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
                          > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
                          > > > > opposite is true.<<
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Robert writes:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
                          > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
                          > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
                          > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
                          > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
                          > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
                          > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
                          > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
                          > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
                          > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
                          > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
                          > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
                          > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
                          > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
                          > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
                          > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
                          > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
                          > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
                          > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
                          > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
                          > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
                          > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
                          > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
                          > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
                          > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
                          > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
                          > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
                          > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
                          > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
                          > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
                          > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
                          > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
                          > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
                          > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
                          > > > > way?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
                          > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
                          > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
                          > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
                          > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
                          > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
                          > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
                          > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
                          > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
                          > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
                          > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Robert Mason
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          ________________________________________________________________________\
                          > \
                          > > > ____________
                          > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                          > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
                          > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Mathew Morrell
                          Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but not necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything positive or inspiring.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but not
                            necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything
                            positive or inspiring. Mostly, political discussions have diverted
                            from our central aim to delve into Rudolph Steiner's vision of
                            spiritual science--- not to provide a forum to endlessly exercise our
                            personal demons. Politics never seizes to drive wedges between
                            people who would otherwise be friends.

                            It is our semi-restriction on politics (especially America bashing)
                            that makes this forum unique from every other Rudolph Steiner forum
                            on the Internet. Our forum is also the least popular.

                            Just to avoid any misconceptions in the future, let me add that I'm
                            not really a Socialist, per se. I consider myself a "light"
                            socialist, meaning I believe in strong, socialistic programs (like
                            Social Security and FAFSA) that benefit society as a whole without
                            making the people dependent on big government. In fact, most
                            members here would consider me a "right winger".




                            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                            <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which grants
                            > less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to freedom,
                            it
                            > is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
                            > what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
                            > Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than does
                            > the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
                            > appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
                            > travel into America today and this must reflect something more than
                            > "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
                            > Constitution.
                            >
                            > I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
                            > French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be forced
                            > upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my obligations
                            > are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I am
                            > behaving myself.
                            >
                            > I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics, business,
                            > banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many socialists
                            > are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-called
                            > republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada is
                            in
                            > shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this to
                            > it being a socialist nation and having too much government
                            > involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of
                            drugs
                            > sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
                            > themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
                            > government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they
                            still
                            > call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-enterprise.
                            > When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
                            > things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
                            > acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur and
                            > all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong"
                            and
                            > not titles.
                            >
                            > Chris
                            >
                            > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@> wrote:
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
                            > >
                            > > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
                            > > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law.
                            But at
                            > > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
                            > > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-
                            Canada,
                            > > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid violence
                            > > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
                            > > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and
                            free
                            > > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we know
                            who
                            > > the victor will be.
                            > >
                            > > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants with
                            pitch
                            > > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the working
                            man
                            > > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them
                            Lenin,
                            > > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The German
                            beer
                            > > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance, good
                            > > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny was
                            all
                            > > that followed.
                            > >
                            > > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be
                            pulled
                            > > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution
                            ends. Our
                            > > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct
                            motives, and
                            > > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our
                            revolution
                            > > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
                            > > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
                            > >
                            > > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of
                            jail, and
                            > > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse
                            working
                            > > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you
                            or I
                            > > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                            > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Dear Mathew,
                            > > >
                            > > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy Spirit
                            and
                            > > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it is a
                            > > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world as
                            > > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on the
                            > > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep
                            these
                            > > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are
                            often
                            > > > closely linked together.
                            > > >
                            > > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical
                            Movement
                            > > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is
                            aware
                            > > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman
                            Cannot Law",
                            > > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in
                            place
                            > > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common
                            Law or
                            > > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the
                            Constitution
                            > > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
                            > > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can
                            show
                            > > > YOU the law.
                            > > >
                            > > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the land"
                            is
                            > > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of
                            America".
                            > > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS' as a
                            > > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is so.
                            > > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
                            > > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many
                            people are
                            > > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why
                            on the
                            > > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank
                            Note, or
                            > > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI, (as
                            in
                            > > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That is
                            why,
                            > > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
                            > > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government
                            assumes
                            > > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in
                            mind also,
                            > > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any
                            debt, or
                            > > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay
                            goes
                            > > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the
                            Founding
                            > > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with
                            blood. I
                            > > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the
                            words of
                            > > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of America
                            and
                            > > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
                            > > >
                            > > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding the
                            > > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea but
                            to be
                            > > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax
                            without
                            > > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
                            > > > servants and NOT free men.
                            > > >
                            > > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further
                            and
                            > > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income
                            tax for
                            > > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that
                            they are
                            > > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in
                            place
                            > > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail
                            here but
                            > > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy,
                            or a
                            > > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
                            > > >
                            > > > Chris
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@ wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > [brackets mine]
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
                            > > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot see.
                            > > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and Anthroposophy
                            is
                            > > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the
                            New World
                            > > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm
                            open to
                            > > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there
                            that I
                            > > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to
                            illuminate the
                            > > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new
                            vision of
                            > > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity
                            atrophies and
                            > > > > dies.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order---
                            an
                            > > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism,
                            spiritualized
                            > > by
                            > > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with their
                            asinine
                            > > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their
                            sickening
                            > > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my
                            sword.
                            > > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
                            <robertsmason_99@>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
                            > > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
                            > > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
                            > > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
                            > > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
                            > > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
                            > > > > > control of ideas.<<
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Robert writes:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
                            > > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
                            > > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
                            > > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
                            > > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
                            > > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
                            > > > > > flood it with disinformation.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Matthew wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
                            > > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
                            > > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
                            > > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
                            > > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
                            > > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
                            > > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
                            > > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
                            > > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
                            > > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
                            > > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
                            > > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
                            > > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
                            > > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
                            > > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
                            > > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
                            > > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
                            > > > > > opposite is true.<<
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Robert writes:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
                            > > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
                            > > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
                            > > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
                            > > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
                            > > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
                            > > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
                            > > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
                            > > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
                            > > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
                            > > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
                            > > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
                            > > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
                            > > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
                            > > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
                            > > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
                            > > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
                            > > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
                            > > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
                            > > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
                            > > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
                            > > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
                            > > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
                            > > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
                            > > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
                            > > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
                            > > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
                            > > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
                            > > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
                            > > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
                            > > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
                            > > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
                            > > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
                            > > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
                            > > > > > way?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
                            > > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
                            > > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
                            > > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
                            > > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
                            > > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
                            > > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
                            > > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
                            > > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
                            > > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
                            > > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Robert Mason
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            __\
                            > > \
                            > > > > ____________
                            > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels
                            with
                            > > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
                            > > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • christopherraymond_bio
                            Agreed Mathew. Politics mix with Anthroposophy, as does oil and water. The America bashing is annoying and too prevalent, almost a trend lately. ... not ...
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Agreed Mathew. Politics mix with Anthroposophy, as does oil and
                              water. The America bashing is annoying and too prevalent, almost a
                              trend lately.

                              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Generally speaking, political discussions are tolerated here, but
                              not
                              > necessarily welcome. So few, if any, have resulted in anything
                              > positive or inspiring. Mostly, political discussions have diverted
                              > from our central aim to delve into Rudolph Steiner's vision of
                              > spiritual science--- not to provide a forum to endlessly exercise
                              our
                              > personal demons. Politics never seizes to drive wedges between
                              > people who would otherwise be friends.
                              >
                              > It is our semi-restriction on politics (especially America bashing)
                              > that makes this forum unique from every other Rudolph Steiner forum
                              > on the Internet. Our forum is also the least popular.
                              >
                              > Just to avoid any misconceptions in the future, let me add that I'm
                              > not really a Socialist, per se. I consider myself a "light"
                              > socialist, meaning I believe in strong, socialistic programs (like
                              > Social Security and FAFSA) that benefit society as a whole without
                              > making the people dependent on big government. In fact, most
                              > members here would consider me a "right winger".
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                              > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thanks Mathew. You know Canada has a Charter of Rights which
                              grants
                              > > less freedom than the Constitution. When I refer here to
                              freedom,
                              > it
                              > > is temporal freedom and not 'true freedom' but basic regulation on
                              > > what powers the government can act upon. So we can say that the
                              > > Constitution is allowing the US government less authority than
                              does
                              > > the Canadian Charter of Rights. But today Canadians actually
                              > > appear to have more freedom than do Americans. Europeans will not
                              > > travel into America today and this must reflect something more
                              than
                              > > "Socialist" or "Republican", or "Libertarian", or even the
                              > > Constitution.
                              > >
                              > > I recall Dr. Steiner making it clear how St. Germain opposed the
                              > > French Revolution and how he felt that changes were not to be
                              forced
                              > > upon people through violence. I was born a rebel but my
                              obligations
                              > > are needed elsewhere, so i have done exactly what you said and I
                              am
                              > > behaving myself.
                              > >
                              > > I haven't read too much on Dr. Steiner's view of politics,
                              business,
                              > > banking or even spiritual socialism but I find that many
                              socialists
                              > > are acting like better 'free-market' business people than so-
                              called
                              > > republicans today. For example, the medi-care system is Canada
                              is
                              > in
                              > > shambles and our drugs are overpriced. And people attribute this
                              to
                              > > it being a socialist nation and having too much government
                              > > involvement. However, when I compare it to the average cost of
                              > drugs
                              > > sold in America, I wonder how those Republicans can be calling
                              > > themselves anything other than "fascists"? For when business and
                              > > government merge, to me this is a cartel, or fascism. Yet they
                              > still
                              > > call themselves "Republicans" and know nothing of free-
                              enterprise.
                              > > When a so-called socialist sits down with me and discusses
                              > > things, many Canadians are calling themselves this, they're often
                              > > acting as better Republicans, such that the lines begin to blur
                              and
                              > > all that remains is their ability to understand "right and wrong"
                              > and
                              > > not titles.
                              > >
                              > > Chris
                              > >
                              > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > > A lot of good thoughts there, Chris. You're a true rebel.
                              > > >
                              > > > I am myself a "light" socialist, and so therefore we might
                              > > > differ in some areas concerning taxes and Constitutional law.
                              > But at
                              > > > least it's good to find somebody in Anthroposophy who approaches
                              > > > these issues from the standpoint of love, not hate, for America-
                              > Canada,
                              > > > and that you're the type of person who would rather avoid
                              violence
                              > > > than create it un-necessarily. Both of us would rather see the
                              > > > Reformation fought on the mental plane, through open debate and
                              > free
                              > > > discussion rather than on the streets of our cities where we
                              know
                              > who
                              > > > the victor will be.
                              > > >
                              > > > The French Revolution was fought on the streets by peasants
                              with
                              > pitch
                              > > > forks, and it won them Napoleon. On a massive scale the
                              working
                              > man
                              > > > usurped the Romanov Russian Empire, and their blood gave them
                              > Lenin,
                              > > > Trotsky and finally Stalin, who obliterated them all. The
                              German
                              > beer
                              > > > hall meetings of the 1920s led to Hitler. In each instance,
                              good
                              > > > intentions were hoped for by well-meaning people, but tyranny
                              was
                              > all
                              > > > that followed.
                              > > >
                              > > > For our Reformation to succeed it must not allow itself to be
                              > pulled
                              > > > into the dark, turbid waters where nearly every revolution
                              > ends. Our
                              > > > Reformation must imbue itself with clear thinking, direct
                              > motives, and
                              > > > foresight to overcome the huge obstacles that lie ahead. Our
                              > revolution
                              > > > must be fought from above, with Michael's divine assistance---or
                              > > > else it is doomed to create ever-greater dimensions of tyranny.
                              > > >
                              > > > Therefore be a good boy, keep paying your taxes, stay out of
                              > jail, and
                              > > > leave radical government reformations to the Christ impulse
                              > working
                              > > > through our Time Spirit. He'll right the ship in ways that you
                              > or I
                              > > > can't possibly imagine, if we work by His will, not by ours.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                              > > > <christopherraymond_bio@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dear Mathew,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dr. Steiner said there was a Conspiracy against the Holy
                              Spirit
                              > and
                              > > > > Christ. I believe that in order to have this come about, it
                              is a
                              > > > > required fact that some "spill over" into the material world
                              as
                              > > > > Conspiracies will appear. And I appreciate Robert's link on
                              the
                              > > > > revisionist history also, because even though I tend to keep
                              > these
                              > > > > matters separate from spiritual ideas and concepts, they are
                              > often
                              > > > > closely linked together.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > For example, I know this 'new' member of the Anthroposophical
                              > Movement
                              > > > > who considered NOT paying income tax several years ago. He is
                              > aware
                              > > > > that under International Admiralty Maritime Law or "Roman
                              > Cannot Law",
                              > > > > or "law of the open waters", that contract provisions are in
                              > place
                              > > > > that force "Citizens" to pay income tax. However under Common
                              > Law or
                              > > > > Civil Law, which is based upon the Bill of Rights and the
                              > Constitution
                              > > > > of America, or the Canadian Charter of Rights, there is NO LAW
                              > > > > requiring one to pay income tax. To this VERY day, No-one can
                              > show
                              > > > > YOU the law.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Common law and Civil Law, which is really the "law of the
                              land"
                              > is
                              > > > > nearly the same in both Canada and in the "united states of
                              > America".
                              > > > > Notice that the "UNITED STATES" is today spelled in 'CAPPS'
                              as a
                              > > > > corporation and this is not known to most people why that is
                              so.
                              > > > > However, to become a "non-citizen" and to return yourself to a
                              > > > > sovereign American or Canadian, is not something that many
                              > people are
                              > > > > knowledgeable enough to do. This has also much to do with why
                              > on the
                              > > > > bottom of your birth certificate it now says, Canadian Bank
                              > Note, or
                              > > > > Treasury Bond, in very tiny print. Even a soldier, or a GI,
                              (as
                              > in
                              > > > > GI-JOE) is short for "General Issue" or a "Bank Note". That
                              is
                              > why,
                              > > > > it was once optional to fill out an income tax form. Now it is
                              > > > > illegal to file for an amount less than what the government
                              > assumes
                              > > > > you made for that period on your income tax return. Keep in
                              > mind also,
                              > > > > that not one penny of Income Tax goes toward paying off any
                              > debt, or
                              > > > > to the poor, or even to the government! The Income Tax we pay
                              > goes
                              > > > > straight into the hands of the type of dictators who the
                              > Founding
                              > > > > Fathers opposed during the Revolution. They opposed it with
                              > blood. I
                              > > > > do not want to see a Restoration occur in America; even the
                              > words of
                              > > > > Edgar Cayce, were about protecting the Constitution of
                              America
                              > and
                              > > > > what happened in Germany will not happen in America.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I recall the words of President George Washington regarding
                              the
                              > > > > colonists having gladly paid a few more pennies tax on tea
                              but
                              > to be
                              > > > > forced to pay an un-apportioned tax on your labor, and a tax
                              > without
                              > > > > representation, is tyranny. It is a tax that Kings place upon
                              > > > > servants and NOT free men.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > That person is me. I decided to look into this matter further
                              > and
                              > > > > upon much reflection, I've decided I will keep paying income
                              > tax for
                              > > > > now because the government is so corrupt and evil today, that
                              > they are
                              > > > > not even following the very rules that they themselves put in
                              > place
                              > > > > and used to follow. I could go on for days into more detail
                              > here but
                              > > > > the point is, if they had a Trojan Horse in the days of Troy,
                              > or a
                              > > > > back door, then how can we ignore having a decent firewall?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Chris
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" tma4cbt@
                              wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Mr. Mason wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > [The inner circle of New World Order] understand
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > that Anthroposophy is a serious obstacle to their
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > aims, however insignificant and muddled Anthropo-
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > sophists may appear to be on the physical plane.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > [brackets mine]
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I'll at least accept the possibility that you're seeing
                              > > > > > something in the heart of Anthroposophists that I cannot
                              see.
                              > > > > > You're a bright person. Maybe you're right and
                              Anthroposophy
                              > is
                              > > > > > a world-force around the globe capable of intimidating the
                              > New World
                              > > > > > Order. Where as I see a movement riddled with neurosis, I'm
                              > open to
                              > > > > > the possibility that there is a silent majority out there
                              > that I
                              > > > > > haven't encountered who have the spiritual wisdom to
                              > illuminate the
                              > > > > > world. Maybe they're the ones capable of bringing a new
                              > vision of
                              > > > > > Christ to the 21st century, as mainstream Christianity
                              > atrophies and
                              > > > > > dies.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > That is the worst nightmare scenario of the New World Order-
                              --
                              > an
                              > > > > > illuminated Christian Church, empowered by occultism,
                              > spiritualized
                              > > > by
                              > > > > > God, saved by Jesus Christ, our Lord.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > When Anthroposophists are tired of dicking around with
                              their
                              > asinine
                              > > > > > conspiracy theories, their rabid anti-Semitism, and their
                              > sickening
                              > > > > > hatred of the United States, wake me up and I'll pick up my
                              > sword.
                              > > > > > Until then, you guys are on your own.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
                              > <robertsmason_99@>
                              > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > To Mathew Morrell, who wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >>If they start censoring Steiner's lectures,
                              > > > > > > don't fret. Start uploading his censored
                              > > > > > > material onto the Internet---and those
                              > > > > > > teachings, in turn, will become more available
                              > > > > > > than they are now. In our time, the Internet is
                              > > > > > > our greatest weapon against totalitarian
                              > > > > > > control of ideas.<<
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Robert writes:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Just about all of Steiner's writings and
                              > > > > > > lectures are already on the Net in German, and
                              > > > > > > a good deal of them in English at the eLib.
                              > > > > > > But the would-be totalitarians are already
                              > > > > > > exploring ways to shut down the Internet. So
                              > > > > > > far, it seems, their main ploy has been to
                              > > > > > > flood it with disinformation.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Matthew wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >>. . . . Now, as far as "saving" Anthro from
                              > > > > > > totalitarianism, that's kind of an oxymoron,
                              > > > > > > isn't it? Maybe the Internet has warped my view
                              > > > > > > of Anthroposophy as a whole, but I really don't
                              > > > > > > see any major political conflicts arising
                              > > > > > > anytime soon between the New World Order and
                              > > > > > > Anthroposophy. Nor can I envision the average
                              > > > > > > Anthroposophist being locked up in a re-
                              > > > > > > education camp or a Gulag. In fact, I see the
                              > > > > > > opposite occuring. The New World Order and the
                              > > > > > > average Anthroposophist are in perfect
                              > > > > > > agreement on so many issues (i.e. gun control,
                              > > > > > > immigration, the Fairness Doctrine) that the
                              > > > > > > two spheres almost seem to be an extension of
                              > > > > > > one another. Anthroposophists should stop
                              > > > > > > flattering themselves with the idea that
                              > > > > > > they're radical intellectuals, when quite the
                              > > > > > > opposite is true.<<
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Robert writes:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > That's an interesting perception of the
                              > > > > > > "average" Anthro, and maybe you have more
                              > > > > > > experience on which to base it than I have. I
                              > > > > > > suppose to some extent, at least, it's true.
                              > > > > > > Anthros are only people, and most people have
                              > > > > > > the outlook that is normal in the society
                              > > > > > > around them. When people come to Anthroposophy
                              > > > > > > they usually bring some of the "normal"
                              > > > > > > prejudices with them. It's an individual
                              > > > > > > matter as to how much the encounter with
                              > > > > > > Anthroposophy will make the Anthro into a
                              > > > > > > "radical intellectual", to use your phrase.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Nevertheless, Anthroposophy itself is very much
                              > > > > > > at odds with the prevailing materialistic
                              > > > > > > worldview, and those Powers That Be (those in
                              > > > > > > the inner circles) know this fact very well,
                              > > > > > > and they understand that Anthroposophy is a
                              > > > > > > serious obstacle to their aims, however
                              > > > > > > insignificant and muddled Anthroposophists may
                              > > > > > > appear to be on the physical plane.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Therefore, just having any connection with
                              > > > > > > Anthroposophy might well put someone on the
                              > > > > > > arrest list, or the extermination list.
                              > > > > > > Picture this: The black-clad, ski-masked,
                              > > > > > > body-armored SWAT team is kicking in the door,
                              > > > > > > shooting the dog, and hauling the startled,
                              > > > > > > unarmed Anthro into the paddy wagon. Do you
                              > > > > > > suppose it would do him any good to protest,
                              > > > > > > "No, no; I believe in open borders. I'm for
                              > > > > > > gun control. I love the U.N., I really do." --
                              > > > > > > ?Hm?? Do you think that the steroid-pumped
                              > > > > > > HiGs would relent and release the "terrorist"?
                              > > > > > > Or do you suppose that the magistrate, if there
                              > > > > > > be any magistrates or *habeus corpus* left in
                              > > > > > > the NWO, would appreciate the PC-ness of the
                              > > > > > > "average Anthro" and let him go on his merry
                              > > > > > > way?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Maybe, maybe . . . . But maybe not. If the NWO
                              > > > > > > comes down, is it gonna come down as hard as
                              > > > > > > the Power That Be would like it to, or would
                              > > > > > > there be some restraint? That's kinda the
                              > > > > > > question I was asking, and asking whether
                              > > > > > > traditional American respect for freedom would
                              > > > > > > yet impose that restraint more than in Europe.
                              > > > > > > But I don't much doubt that the Powers That Be
                              > > > > > > would like to exterminate anyone who has any
                              > > > > > > real appreciation of Anthroposophy.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I appreciate your take on the "average" Anthro;
                              > > > > > > I wonder whether anyone has taken a poll?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Robert Mason
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              ______________________________________________________________________
                              > __\
                              > > > \
                              > > > > > ____________
                              > > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and
                              hotels
                              > with
                              > > > > > Yahoo! FareChase.
                              > > > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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