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Re: Cyanide poisoning...?

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  • christopherraymond_bio
    Dear Sheila and Robert, Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called Preparing for the Sixth Epoch , found at the archives.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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      Dear Sheila and Robert,

      Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called "Preparing
      for the Sixth Epoch", found at the archives.
      http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/PreSix_index.html This is lecture
      13 of a total of 15 from the volume: "The Secret of Death" which
      contains all 15 lectures. However, when I did a search for the "The
      Secret of Death" the closest match I came up with is Peter
      Novak's "The Lost Secret of Death".
      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6696/

      If Mr. Barnes mentioned to you that he apparently knew of no such
      association as being valid from Steiner, then I am wondering if he
      was aware of the quotes made by Tradowsky also.


      Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It would
      be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for
      the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions
      from. In this link which Novak quotes from Tradowsky
      http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749 is he also
      quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from Tradowsky?

      Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention Cyanide and
      how it was used to murder millions of people, yet Bondarev who is
      apparently sourcing his material from the same place as Tradowsky,
      come to a conclusion that perhaps there could have been no
      Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev claiming his impartial stance
      in the matter, for I am in that same situation myself – not sure what
      is the truth of the matter of the Holocaust, however there is
      something missing here and I believe it is the "SOURCE".

      Are there any ideas on where to start looking for this?
      Chris



      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > To Chris, who wrote:
      >
      > >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
      > negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
      > of Man. . . .
      >
      > >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
      > stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<
      >
      > Robert writes:
      >
      > I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
      > quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
      > the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
      > Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
      > one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.
      >
      > Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
      > to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
      > recall the consequences of playing with black
      > magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
      > Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
      > dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
      > somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
      > that a global ecological catastrophe would
      > follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
      > does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
      > consideration; thus I quoted it.
      >
      > But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
      > the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
      > to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
      > contemporary politics; perhaps that
      > "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
      > Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
      > somewhat dubious.
      >
      > Chris wrote:
      >
      > >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
      > are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
      > Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
      > is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
      > that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
      > Soul?<<
      >
      > Robert writes:
      >
      > That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
      > which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
      > this theme. I think it might be well to recall
      > the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
      > regarding the published lecture transcripts:
      > they may contain mistakes. I think that we
      > should use caution in building towering
      > conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
      > were not (as far as we know) repeated and
      > explained elsewhere. In reading these
      > transcripts we need always to try to compare,
      > collate, and fit single remarks into the
      > totality of Steiner's teachings.
      >
      > When considering a puzzling remark such as this
      > about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
      > cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
      > directions. I don't quite believe that
      > anything other than one's own profound moral
      > transgressions could cause the death of one's
      > soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
      > hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
      > something very important and very credible
      > about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
      > would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
      > the power) killing anyone by cyanide.
      >
      > My opinion, for what it's worth.
      >
      > Robert Mason
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      ______________
      > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
      new Car Finder tool.
      > http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
      >
    • happypick2000
      Dear Chris and All, A few comments only am I apparently able to respond to regarding the apparent puzzles below. :) Regarding Mr. Barnes, Chris, indeed he was
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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        Dear Chris and All,

        A few comments only am I apparently able to respond to regarding the
        apparent puzzles below. :)

        Regarding Mr. Barnes, Chris, indeed he was most definitely aware of
        Tradowsky, Bondarev and their writings as well as others seemingly
        influencing Anthroposophical teachings in their own ways. It was
        perhaps 25 to 30 years ago that I contacted Henry Barnes, at that time
        among the USA's Anthroposophical Society's leaders and a close friend
        of my mentor. As you can see, I belong to those Anthroposophists who
        date many years in the past, and in fact, so far back that I very
        clearly recall in a close personal way the truth of cyanide being used
        extensively by the Nazi Party to "exterminate" Jews, Gypsies,
        Communists AND Anthroposophists.

        Some years following WWII and the Holocaust while studying medicine, I
        was interested in the effects of cyanide upon the human body, and for
        what little it might be worth from a materialistic scientific
        standpoint, it appears cyanide interferes with the transport of oxygen
        and/or other elements contained in the air we breathe from sustaining
        human life as should be possible during the human body's breathing
        process. In effect, cyanide blocks the action of oxygen. This is a
        simplistic explanation, but I believe quite correct.

        Let me interject a personal thought here which seems to have upheld my
        own searchings in Anthroposophy, and that is to hold steady to
        Steiner. This statement in no way implies only Steiner was capable of
        approaching truths, but for myself, I always felt on sure ground by
        holding him as my guide. Practically all my Steiner books are the
        original translations with any possible corrections/explanatons made
        by a friend who worked for quite some years directly with Steiner.
        While this latter fact does not insure everything I have access to is
        totally and 100% accurate, it is the closest I personally am able to
        feel certain of what I study.

        It is really great to find so many inquiring minds striving for the
        truth via Anthroposophy, and it illustrates how greatly Steiner's work
        has progressed and evolved!

        Blessings,

        Sheila

        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Sheila and Robert,
        >
        > Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called "Preparing
        > for the Sixth Epoch", found at the archives.
        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/PreSix_index.html This is lecture
        > 13 of a total of 15 from the volume: "The Secret of Death" which
        > contains all 15 lectures. However, when I did a search for the "The
        > Secret of Death" the closest match I came up with is Peter
        > Novak's "The Lost Secret of Death".
        > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6696/
        >
        > If Mr. Barnes mentioned to you that he apparently knew of no such
        > association as being valid from Steiner, then I am wondering if he
        > was aware of the quotes made by Tradowsky also.
        >
        >
        > Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It would
        > be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for
        > the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions
        > from. In this link which Novak quotes from Tradowsky
        > http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749 is he also
        > quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from Tradowsky?
        >
        > Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention Cyanide and
        > how it was used to murder millions of people, yet Bondarev who is
        > apparently sourcing his material from the same place as Tradowsky,
        > come to a conclusion that perhaps there could have been no
        > Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev claiming his impartial stance
        > in the matter, for I am in that same situation myself – not sure what
        > is the truth of the matter of the Holocaust, however there is
        > something missing here and I believe it is the "SOURCE".
        >
        > Are there any ideas on where to start looking for this?
        > Chris
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > To Chris, who wrote:
        > >
        > > >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
        > > negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
        > > of Man. . . .
        > >
        > > >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
        > > stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<
        > >
        > > Robert writes:
        > >
        > > I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
        > > quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
        > > the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
        > > Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
        > > one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.
        > >
        > > Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
        > > to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
        > > recall the consequences of playing with black
        > > magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
        > > Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
        > > dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
        > > somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
        > > that a global ecological catastrophe would
        > > follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
        > > does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
        > > consideration; thus I quoted it.
        > >
        > > But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
        > > the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
        > > to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
        > > contemporary politics; perhaps that
        > > "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
        > > Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
        > > somewhat dubious.
        > >
        > > Chris wrote:
        > >
        > > >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
        > > are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
        > > Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
        > > is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
        > > that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
        > > Soul?<<
        > >
        > > Robert writes:
        > >
        > > That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
        > > which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
        > > this theme. I think it might be well to recall
        > > the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
        > > regarding the published lecture transcripts:
        > > they may contain mistakes. I think that we
        > > should use caution in building towering
        > > conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
        > > were not (as far as we know) repeated and
        > > explained elsewhere. In reading these
        > > transcripts we need always to try to compare,
        > > collate, and fit single remarks into the
        > > totality of Steiner's teachings.
        > >
        > > When considering a puzzling remark such as this
        > > about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
        > > cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
        > > directions. I don't quite believe that
        > > anything other than one's own profound moral
        > > transgressions could cause the death of one's
        > > soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
        > > hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
        > > something very important and very credible
        > > about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
        > > would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
        > > the power) killing anyone by cyanide.
        > >
        > > My opinion, for what it's worth.
        > >
        > > Robert Mason
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > ______________________________________________________________________
        > ______________
        > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
        > new Car Finder tool.
        > > http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
        > >
        >
      • Robert Mason
        ... would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions from. In this
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 14, 2007
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          To Chris, who wrote:

          >>Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It
          would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am
          looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving
          their opinions from. In this link which Novak quotes from
          Tradowsky
          http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749
          is he also quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from
          Tradowsky?<<

          Robert writes:

          As I read Novaliz, the text within the single quotation
          marks is from Tradowsky, and the text within the
          double quotes is Novalis quoting Tradowsky quoting
          Steiner.

          I don't see that lecture at the eLib. If you live in
          the USA, you might be able to get the English version
          as a had copy from the RS Library in Ghent, NY. If
          you read German, you might get a e-text from the
          Nachlassverwaltung archive <www.rudolf-steiner.com>.

          Chris wrote:

          >>Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention
          Cyanide and how it was used to murder millions of people, yet
          Bondarev who is apparently sourcing his material from the same
          place as Tradowsky, come to a conclusion that perhaps there
          could have been no Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev
          claiming his impartial stance in the matter, for I am in that
          same situation myself – not sure what is the truth of the
          matter of the Holocaust, however there is something missing here
          and I believe it is the "SOURCE".<<

          Robert writes:

          I think that Tradowsky and Bondarev were reading the
          same text from Steiner, but that their differing
          opinions are due to the differences in their own
          personalities, their backgrounds, their other readings,
          and their methodologies. I would *guess* that
          Bondy may have read some "revisionist* historical
          accounts that Tradowsky had not. Bondarev is a
          Russian who has now been living in Switzerland for
          some years; I would guess (don't know) that Tradowsky
          has been living in Germany all along. Unorthodox,
          "revisionist" historical treatments of the "Holocaust"
          are under severe legal restrictions in Germany, and
          so might not have been readily available to Tradowsky.

          Thus, I don't think the "something missing" is this
          particular text from Steiner. To get a better
          understanding of Bondarev, you might want to get
          the whole book from Nelson Willby. And/or you
          might want to browse around in "revisionsist"
          literature about World War II etc. If you are
          in the USA and have uncensored Internet, this
          should be easy enough to do. Of course, one has
          to sift the wheat from the chaff. There are
          many place you could start; this might be one:
          <www.vho.org/GB/Books/hoh>.

          Robert Mason







          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        • christopherraymond_bio
          Thank you Robert and Sheila, that was helpful information. I am still investigating the cyanide issue but I m no longer perplexed as to the the quotes
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 29, 2007
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            Thank you Robert and Sheila, that was helpful information. I am still
            investigating the cyanide issue but I'm no longer perplexed as to the
            the quotes attributed to Dr. Steiner.

            Chris.


            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
            >
            > To Chris, who wrote:
            >
            > >>Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It
            > would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am
            > looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving
            > their opinions from. In this link which Novak quotes from
            > Tradowsky
            > http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749
            > is he also quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from
            > Tradowsky?<<
            >
            > Robert writes:
            >
            > As I read Novaliz, the text within the single quotation
            > marks is from Tradowsky, and the text within the
            > double quotes is Novalis quoting Tradowsky quoting
            > Steiner.
            >
            > I don't see that lecture at the eLib. If you live in
            > the USA, you might be able to get the English version
            > as a had copy from the RS Library in Ghent, NY. If
            > you read German, you might get a e-text from the
            > Nachlassverwaltung archive <www.rudolf-steiner.com>.
            >
            > Chris wrote:
            >
            > >>Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention
            > Cyanide and how it was used to murder millions of people, yet
            > Bondarev who is apparently sourcing his material from the same
            > place as Tradowsky, come to a conclusion that perhaps there
            > could have been no Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev
            > claiming his impartial stance in the matter, for I am in that
            > same situation myself – not sure what is the truth of the
            > matter of the Holocaust, however there is something missing here
            > and I believe it is the "SOURCE".<<
            >
            > Robert writes:
            >
            > I think that Tradowsky and Bondarev were reading the
            > same text from Steiner, but that their differing
            > opinions are due to the differences in their own
            > personalities, their backgrounds, their other readings,
            > and their methodologies. I would *guess* that
            > Bondy may have read some "revisionist* historical
            > accounts that Tradowsky had not. Bondarev is a
            > Russian who has now been living in Switzerland for
            > some years; I would guess (don't know) that Tradowsky
            > has been living in Germany all along. Unorthodox,
            > "revisionist" historical treatments of the "Holocaust"
            > are under severe legal restrictions in Germany, and
            > so might not have been readily available to Tradowsky.
            >
            > Thus, I don't think the "something missing" is this
            > particular text from Steiner. To get a better
            > understanding of Bondarev, you might want to get
            > the whole book from Nelson Willby. And/or you
            > might want to browse around in "revisionsist"
            > literature about World War II etc. If you are
            > in the USA and have uncensored Internet, this
            > should be easy enough to do. Of course, one has
            > to sift the wheat from the chaff. There are
            > many place you could start; this might be one:
            > <www.vho.org/GB/Books/hoh>.
            >
            > Robert Mason
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Never miss an email again!
            > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
            > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
            >
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