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re: Cyanide poisoning...?

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  • Robert Mason
    ... negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul of Man. . . . ... stemming from Rudolf Steiner.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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      To Chris, who wrote:

      >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
      negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
      of Man. . . .

      >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
      stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<

      Robert writes:

      I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
      quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
      the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
      Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
      one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.

      Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
      to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
      recall the consequences of playing with black
      magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
      Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
      dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
      somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
      that a global ecological catastrophe would
      follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
      does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
      consideration; thus I quoted it.

      But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
      the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
      to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
      contemporary politics; perhaps that
      "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
      Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
      somewhat dubious.

      Chris wrote:

      >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
      are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
      Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
      is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
      that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
      Soul?<<

      Robert writes:

      That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
      which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
      this theme. I think it might be well to recall
      the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
      regarding the published lecture transcripts:
      they may contain mistakes. I think that we
      should use caution in building towering
      conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
      were not (as far as we know) repeated and
      explained elsewhere. In reading these
      transcripts we need always to try to compare,
      collate, and fit single remarks into the
      totality of Steiner's teachings.

      When considering a puzzling remark such as this
      about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
      cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
      directions. I don't quite believe that
      anything other than one's own profound moral
      transgressions could cause the death of one's
      soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
      hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
      something very important and very credible
      about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
      would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
      the power) killing anyone by cyanide.

      My opinion, for what it's worth.

      Robert Mason





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    • christopherraymond_bio
      Dear Sheila and Robert, Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called Preparing for the Sixth Epoch , found at the archives.
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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        Dear Sheila and Robert,

        Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called "Preparing
        for the Sixth Epoch", found at the archives.
        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/PreSix_index.html This is lecture
        13 of a total of 15 from the volume: "The Secret of Death" which
        contains all 15 lectures. However, when I did a search for the "The
        Secret of Death" the closest match I came up with is Peter
        Novak's "The Lost Secret of Death".
        http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6696/

        If Mr. Barnes mentioned to you that he apparently knew of no such
        association as being valid from Steiner, then I am wondering if he
        was aware of the quotes made by Tradowsky also.


        Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It would
        be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for
        the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions
        from. In this link which Novak quotes from Tradowsky
        http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749 is he also
        quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from Tradowsky?

        Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention Cyanide and
        how it was used to murder millions of people, yet Bondarev who is
        apparently sourcing his material from the same place as Tradowsky,
        come to a conclusion that perhaps there could have been no
        Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev claiming his impartial stance
        in the matter, for I am in that same situation myself – not sure what
        is the truth of the matter of the Holocaust, however there is
        something missing here and I believe it is the "SOURCE".

        Are there any ideas on where to start looking for this?
        Chris



        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > To Chris, who wrote:
        >
        > >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
        > negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
        > of Man. . . .
        >
        > >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
        > stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<
        >
        > Robert writes:
        >
        > I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
        > quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
        > the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
        > Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
        > one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.
        >
        > Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
        > to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
        > recall the consequences of playing with black
        > magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
        > Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
        > dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
        > somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
        > that a global ecological catastrophe would
        > follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
        > does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
        > consideration; thus I quoted it.
        >
        > But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
        > the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
        > to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
        > contemporary politics; perhaps that
        > "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
        > Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
        > somewhat dubious.
        >
        > Chris wrote:
        >
        > >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
        > are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
        > Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
        > is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
        > that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
        > Soul?<<
        >
        > Robert writes:
        >
        > That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
        > which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
        > this theme. I think it might be well to recall
        > the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
        > regarding the published lecture transcripts:
        > they may contain mistakes. I think that we
        > should use caution in building towering
        > conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
        > were not (as far as we know) repeated and
        > explained elsewhere. In reading these
        > transcripts we need always to try to compare,
        > collate, and fit single remarks into the
        > totality of Steiner's teachings.
        >
        > When considering a puzzling remark such as this
        > about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
        > cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
        > directions. I don't quite believe that
        > anything other than one's own profound moral
        > transgressions could cause the death of one's
        > soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
        > hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
        > something very important and very credible
        > about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
        > would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
        > the power) killing anyone by cyanide.
        >
        > My opinion, for what it's worth.
        >
        > Robert Mason
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        ______________
        > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
        new Car Finder tool.
        > http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
        >
      • happypick2000
        Dear Chris and All, A few comments only am I apparently able to respond to regarding the apparent puzzles below. :) Regarding Mr. Barnes, Chris, indeed he was
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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          Dear Chris and All,

          A few comments only am I apparently able to respond to regarding the
          apparent puzzles below. :)

          Regarding Mr. Barnes, Chris, indeed he was most definitely aware of
          Tradowsky, Bondarev and their writings as well as others seemingly
          influencing Anthroposophical teachings in their own ways. It was
          perhaps 25 to 30 years ago that I contacted Henry Barnes, at that time
          among the USA's Anthroposophical Society's leaders and a close friend
          of my mentor. As you can see, I belong to those Anthroposophists who
          date many years in the past, and in fact, so far back that I very
          clearly recall in a close personal way the truth of cyanide being used
          extensively by the Nazi Party to "exterminate" Jews, Gypsies,
          Communists AND Anthroposophists.

          Some years following WWII and the Holocaust while studying medicine, I
          was interested in the effects of cyanide upon the human body, and for
          what little it might be worth from a materialistic scientific
          standpoint, it appears cyanide interferes with the transport of oxygen
          and/or other elements contained in the air we breathe from sustaining
          human life as should be possible during the human body's breathing
          process. In effect, cyanide blocks the action of oxygen. This is a
          simplistic explanation, but I believe quite correct.

          Let me interject a personal thought here which seems to have upheld my
          own searchings in Anthroposophy, and that is to hold steady to
          Steiner. This statement in no way implies only Steiner was capable of
          approaching truths, but for myself, I always felt on sure ground by
          holding him as my guide. Practically all my Steiner books are the
          original translations with any possible corrections/explanatons made
          by a friend who worked for quite some years directly with Steiner.
          While this latter fact does not insure everything I have access to is
          totally and 100% accurate, it is the closest I personally am able to
          feel certain of what I study.

          It is really great to find so many inquiring minds striving for the
          truth via Anthroposophy, and it illustrates how greatly Steiner's work
          has progressed and evolved!

          Blessings,

          Sheila

          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
          <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Sheila and Robert,
          >
          > Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called "Preparing
          > for the Sixth Epoch", found at the archives.
          > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/PreSix_index.html This is lecture
          > 13 of a total of 15 from the volume: "The Secret of Death" which
          > contains all 15 lectures. However, when I did a search for the "The
          > Secret of Death" the closest match I came up with is Peter
          > Novak's "The Lost Secret of Death".
          > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6696/
          >
          > If Mr. Barnes mentioned to you that he apparently knew of no such
          > association as being valid from Steiner, then I am wondering if he
          > was aware of the quotes made by Tradowsky also.
          >
          >
          > Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It would
          > be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for
          > the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions
          > from. In this link which Novak quotes from Tradowsky
          > http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749 is he also
          > quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from Tradowsky?
          >
          > Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention Cyanide and
          > how it was used to murder millions of people, yet Bondarev who is
          > apparently sourcing his material from the same place as Tradowsky,
          > come to a conclusion that perhaps there could have been no
          > Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev claiming his impartial stance
          > in the matter, for I am in that same situation myself – not sure what
          > is the truth of the matter of the Holocaust, however there is
          > something missing here and I believe it is the "SOURCE".
          >
          > Are there any ideas on where to start looking for this?
          > Chris
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > To Chris, who wrote:
          > >
          > > >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
          > > negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
          > > of Man. . . .
          > >
          > > >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
          > > stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<
          > >
          > > Robert writes:
          > >
          > > I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
          > > quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
          > > the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
          > > Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
          > > one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.
          > >
          > > Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
          > > to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
          > > recall the consequences of playing with black
          > > magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
          > > Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
          > > dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
          > > somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
          > > that a global ecological catastrophe would
          > > follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
          > > does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
          > > consideration; thus I quoted it.
          > >
          > > But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
          > > the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
          > > to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
          > > contemporary politics; perhaps that
          > > "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
          > > Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
          > > somewhat dubious.
          > >
          > > Chris wrote:
          > >
          > > >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
          > > are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
          > > Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
          > > is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
          > > that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
          > > Soul?<<
          > >
          > > Robert writes:
          > >
          > > That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
          > > which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
          > > this theme. I think it might be well to recall
          > > the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
          > > regarding the published lecture transcripts:
          > > they may contain mistakes. I think that we
          > > should use caution in building towering
          > > conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
          > > were not (as far as we know) repeated and
          > > explained elsewhere. In reading these
          > > transcripts we need always to try to compare,
          > > collate, and fit single remarks into the
          > > totality of Steiner's teachings.
          > >
          > > When considering a puzzling remark such as this
          > > about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
          > > cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
          > > directions. I don't quite believe that
          > > anything other than one's own profound moral
          > > transgressions could cause the death of one's
          > > soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
          > > hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
          > > something very important and very credible
          > > about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
          > > would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
          > > the power) killing anyone by cyanide.
          > >
          > > My opinion, for what it's worth.
          > >
          > > Robert Mason
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > ______________________________________________________________________
          > ______________
          > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
          > new Car Finder tool.
          > > http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
          > >
          >
        • Robert Mason
          ... would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions from. In this
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 14, 2007
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            To Chris, who wrote:

            >>Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It
            would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am
            looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving
            their opinions from. In this link which Novak quotes from
            Tradowsky
            http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749
            is he also quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from
            Tradowsky?<<

            Robert writes:

            As I read Novaliz, the text within the single quotation
            marks is from Tradowsky, and the text within the
            double quotes is Novalis quoting Tradowsky quoting
            Steiner.

            I don't see that lecture at the eLib. If you live in
            the USA, you might be able to get the English version
            as a had copy from the RS Library in Ghent, NY. If
            you read German, you might get a e-text from the
            Nachlassverwaltung archive <www.rudolf-steiner.com>.

            Chris wrote:

            >>Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention
            Cyanide and how it was used to murder millions of people, yet
            Bondarev who is apparently sourcing his material from the same
            place as Tradowsky, come to a conclusion that perhaps there
            could have been no Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev
            claiming his impartial stance in the matter, for I am in that
            same situation myself – not sure what is the truth of the
            matter of the Holocaust, however there is something missing here
            and I believe it is the "SOURCE".<<

            Robert writes:

            I think that Tradowsky and Bondarev were reading the
            same text from Steiner, but that their differing
            opinions are due to the differences in their own
            personalities, their backgrounds, their other readings,
            and their methodologies. I would *guess* that
            Bondy may have read some "revisionist* historical
            accounts that Tradowsky had not. Bondarev is a
            Russian who has now been living in Switzerland for
            some years; I would guess (don't know) that Tradowsky
            has been living in Germany all along. Unorthodox,
            "revisionist" historical treatments of the "Holocaust"
            are under severe legal restrictions in Germany, and
            so might not have been readily available to Tradowsky.

            Thus, I don't think the "something missing" is this
            particular text from Steiner. To get a better
            understanding of Bondarev, you might want to get
            the whole book from Nelson Willby. And/or you
            might want to browse around in "revisionsist"
            literature about World War II etc. If you are
            in the USA and have uncensored Internet, this
            should be easy enough to do. Of course, one has
            to sift the wheat from the chaff. There are
            many place you could start; this might be one:
            <www.vho.org/GB/Books/hoh>.

            Robert Mason







            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          • christopherraymond_bio
            Thank you Robert and Sheila, that was helpful information. I am still investigating the cyanide issue but I m no longer perplexed as to the the quotes
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 29, 2007
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              Thank you Robert and Sheila, that was helpful information. I am still
              investigating the cyanide issue but I'm no longer perplexed as to the
              the quotes attributed to Dr. Steiner.

              Chris.


              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
              >
              > To Chris, who wrote:
              >
              > >>Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It
              > would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am
              > looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving
              > their opinions from. In this link which Novak quotes from
              > Tradowsky
              > http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749
              > is he also quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from
              > Tradowsky?<<
              >
              > Robert writes:
              >
              > As I read Novaliz, the text within the single quotation
              > marks is from Tradowsky, and the text within the
              > double quotes is Novalis quoting Tradowsky quoting
              > Steiner.
              >
              > I don't see that lecture at the eLib. If you live in
              > the USA, you might be able to get the English version
              > as a had copy from the RS Library in Ghent, NY. If
              > you read German, you might get a e-text from the
              > Nachlassverwaltung archive <www.rudolf-steiner.com>.
              >
              > Chris wrote:
              >
              > >>Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention
              > Cyanide and how it was used to murder millions of people, yet
              > Bondarev who is apparently sourcing his material from the same
              > place as Tradowsky, come to a conclusion that perhaps there
              > could have been no Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev
              > claiming his impartial stance in the matter, for I am in that
              > same situation myself – not sure what is the truth of the
              > matter of the Holocaust, however there is something missing here
              > and I believe it is the "SOURCE".<<
              >
              > Robert writes:
              >
              > I think that Tradowsky and Bondarev were reading the
              > same text from Steiner, but that their differing
              > opinions are due to the differences in their own
              > personalities, their backgrounds, their other readings,
              > and their methodologies. I would *guess* that
              > Bondy may have read some "revisionist* historical
              > accounts that Tradowsky had not. Bondarev is a
              > Russian who has now been living in Switzerland for
              > some years; I would guess (don't know) that Tradowsky
              > has been living in Germany all along. Unorthodox,
              > "revisionist" historical treatments of the "Holocaust"
              > are under severe legal restrictions in Germany, and
              > so might not have been readily available to Tradowsky.
              >
              > Thus, I don't think the "something missing" is this
              > particular text from Steiner. To get a better
              > understanding of Bondarev, you might want to get
              > the whole book from Nelson Willby. And/or you
              > might want to browse around in "revisionsist"
              > literature about World War II etc. If you are
              > in the USA and have uncensored Internet, this
              > should be easy enough to do. Of course, one has
              > to sift the wheat from the chaff. There are
              > many place you could start; this might be one:
              > <www.vho.org/GB/Books/hoh>.
              >
              > Robert Mason
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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