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Cyanide poisoning...?

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  • christopherraymond_bio
    Dear Seekers, In his article: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/BondarevExcerpts.htm Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the negative effects of this
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 10, 2007
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      Dear Seekers,

      In his article:
      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/BondarevExcerpts.htm

      Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the negative effects of this
      susbtance on the Soul of Man. Peter Tradowosky, I believe, has also
      touched upon this matter. Another link may be found here:
      http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749

      However, I am providing you the exact quote from Bondarev, found in
      the first link:

      "It is known that poisoning by cyanide not only kills the body but,
      as it were, bursts apart the human soul, thereby extinguishing a part
      of the spiritual force of the sun and with it the physical existence
      of our planetary system. Even individual cases of death by cyanide
      shake the cosmos. 6 million such victims is a challenge to Heaven, to
      which there would be without fail a response, the minimum expression
      of which would be a global ecological catastrophe. Such an argument
      can only be understood if one studies spiritual science seriously and
      thoroughly." [p. 166 & supplement #3] "

      I'm unable to locate the orignal material stemming from Rudolf
      Steiner. I am seeking the proper context in which we are to
      correctly under this death by cyanide. Please correct me if I am
      mistaken friends, but is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
      that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the Soul?

      Anyone come across this lecture on Cyanide before?

      Opinions in the matter are appreciated.

      Thanks in advance.
      Chris
    • happypick2000
      ... Dear Chris and Friends, This same Bonderev statement was making the rounds some 10 - 15 years ago with Steiner s rumored acknowledgment supposedly to be
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 10, 2007
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        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
        <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Seekers,
        >
        > In his article:
        > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/BondarevExcerpts.htm
        >
        > Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the negative effects of this
        > susbtance on the Soul of Man. Peter Tradowosky, I believe, has also
        > touched upon this matter. Another link may be found here:
        > http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749
        >
        > However, I am providing you the exact quote from Bondarev, found in
        > the first link:
        >
        > "It is known that poisoning by cyanide not only kills the body but,
        > as it were, bursts apart the human soul, thereby extinguishing a part
        > of the spiritual force of the sun and with it the physical existence
        > of our planetary system. Even individual cases of death by cyanide
        > shake the cosmos. 6 million such victims is a challenge to Heaven, to
        > which there would be without fail a response, the minimum expression
        > of which would be a global ecological catastrophe. Such an argument
        > can only be understood if one studies spiritual science seriously and
        > thoroughly." [p. 166 & supplement #3] "
        >
        > I'm unable to locate the orignal material stemming from Rudolf
        > Steiner. I am seeking the proper context in which we are to
        > correctly under this death by cyanide. Please correct me if I am
        > mistaken friends, but is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
        > that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the Soul?
        >
        > Anyone come across this lecture on Cyanide before?
        >
        > Opinions in the matter are appreciated.
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        > Chris
        >
        Dear Chris and Friends,

        This same Bonderev statement was making the rounds some 10 - 15 years
        ago with Steiner's rumored acknowledgment supposedly to be found in
        his, I believe, lecture entitled "Preparing For the 6th Epoch" - I
        wrote to Henry Barnes for guidance on this matter, which I was unable
        to understand, while pondering this ghastly thought with horror due to
        the massive slaughter of million of Jews by cyanide. Mr. Barnes
        apparently knew of no such association as being valid from Steiner or
        even associated with Anthroposophy. I have never been able to connect
        such a "blanket fate" as being derived from or by Steiner.

        Chris, it is my understanding that man himself is able to destroy his
        human soul by his own actions, leading to a race of human beings
        consisting of a physical body plus a Spiritual body. Among the many
        gifts human beings have been given by The Christ Being's sacrifice on
        Golgotha is the possibility of retaining his human soul - Christ, the
        Redeemer, our Savior, through His innocent death upon Golgotha, gave
        mankind this possibility for his Salvation.

        Blessings,

        Sheila
      • Robert Mason
        ... negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul of Man. . . . ... stemming from Rudolf Steiner.
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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          To Chris, who wrote:

          >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
          negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
          of Man. . . .

          >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
          stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<

          Robert writes:

          I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
          quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
          the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
          Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
          one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.

          Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
          to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
          recall the consequences of playing with black
          magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
          Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
          dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
          somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
          that a global ecological catastrophe would
          follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
          does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
          consideration; thus I quoted it.

          But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
          the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
          to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
          contemporary politics; perhaps that
          "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
          Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
          somewhat dubious.

          Chris wrote:

          >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
          are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
          Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
          is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
          that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
          Soul?<<

          Robert writes:

          That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
          which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
          this theme. I think it might be well to recall
          the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
          regarding the published lecture transcripts:
          they may contain mistakes. I think that we
          should use caution in building towering
          conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
          were not (as far as we know) repeated and
          explained elsewhere. In reading these
          transcripts we need always to try to compare,
          collate, and fit single remarks into the
          totality of Steiner's teachings.

          When considering a puzzling remark such as this
          about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
          cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
          directions. I don't quite believe that
          anything other than one's own profound moral
          transgressions could cause the death of one's
          soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
          hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
          something very important and very credible
          about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
          would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
          the power) killing anyone by cyanide.

          My opinion, for what it's worth.

          Robert Mason





          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
          http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
        • christopherraymond_bio
          Dear Sheila and Robert, Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called Preparing for the Sixth Epoch , found at the archives.
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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            Dear Sheila and Robert,

            Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called "Preparing
            for the Sixth Epoch", found at the archives.
            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/PreSix_index.html This is lecture
            13 of a total of 15 from the volume: "The Secret of Death" which
            contains all 15 lectures. However, when I did a search for the "The
            Secret of Death" the closest match I came up with is Peter
            Novak's "The Lost Secret of Death".
            http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6696/

            If Mr. Barnes mentioned to you that he apparently knew of no such
            association as being valid from Steiner, then I am wondering if he
            was aware of the quotes made by Tradowsky also.


            Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It would
            be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for
            the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions
            from. In this link which Novak quotes from Tradowsky
            http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749 is he also
            quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from Tradowsky?

            Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention Cyanide and
            how it was used to murder millions of people, yet Bondarev who is
            apparently sourcing his material from the same place as Tradowsky,
            come to a conclusion that perhaps there could have been no
            Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev claiming his impartial stance
            in the matter, for I am in that same situation myself – not sure what
            is the truth of the matter of the Holocaust, however there is
            something missing here and I believe it is the "SOURCE".

            Are there any ideas on where to start looking for this?
            Chris



            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > To Chris, who wrote:
            >
            > >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
            > negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
            > of Man. . . .
            >
            > >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
            > stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<
            >
            > Robert writes:
            >
            > I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
            > quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
            > the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
            > Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
            > one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.
            >
            > Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
            > to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
            > recall the consequences of playing with black
            > magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
            > Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
            > dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
            > somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
            > that a global ecological catastrophe would
            > follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
            > does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
            > consideration; thus I quoted it.
            >
            > But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
            > the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
            > to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
            > contemporary politics; perhaps that
            > "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
            > Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
            > somewhat dubious.
            >
            > Chris wrote:
            >
            > >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
            > are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
            > Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
            > is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
            > that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
            > Soul?<<
            >
            > Robert writes:
            >
            > That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
            > which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
            > this theme. I think it might be well to recall
            > the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
            > regarding the published lecture transcripts:
            > they may contain mistakes. I think that we
            > should use caution in building towering
            > conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
            > were not (as far as we know) repeated and
            > explained elsewhere. In reading these
            > transcripts we need always to try to compare,
            > collate, and fit single remarks into the
            > totality of Steiner's teachings.
            >
            > When considering a puzzling remark such as this
            > about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
            > cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
            > directions. I don't quite believe that
            > anything other than one's own profound moral
            > transgressions could cause the death of one's
            > soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
            > hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
            > something very important and very credible
            > about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
            > would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
            > the power) killing anyone by cyanide.
            >
            > My opinion, for what it's worth.
            >
            > Robert Mason
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            ______________
            > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
            new Car Finder tool.
            > http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
            >
          • happypick2000
            Dear Chris and All, A few comments only am I apparently able to respond to regarding the apparent puzzles below. :) Regarding Mr. Barnes, Chris, indeed he was
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 12, 2007
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              Dear Chris and All,

              A few comments only am I apparently able to respond to regarding the
              apparent puzzles below. :)

              Regarding Mr. Barnes, Chris, indeed he was most definitely aware of
              Tradowsky, Bondarev and their writings as well as others seemingly
              influencing Anthroposophical teachings in their own ways. It was
              perhaps 25 to 30 years ago that I contacted Henry Barnes, at that time
              among the USA's Anthroposophical Society's leaders and a close friend
              of my mentor. As you can see, I belong to those Anthroposophists who
              date many years in the past, and in fact, so far back that I very
              clearly recall in a close personal way the truth of cyanide being used
              extensively by the Nazi Party to "exterminate" Jews, Gypsies,
              Communists AND Anthroposophists.

              Some years following WWII and the Holocaust while studying medicine, I
              was interested in the effects of cyanide upon the human body, and for
              what little it might be worth from a materialistic scientific
              standpoint, it appears cyanide interferes with the transport of oxygen
              and/or other elements contained in the air we breathe from sustaining
              human life as should be possible during the human body's breathing
              process. In effect, cyanide blocks the action of oxygen. This is a
              simplistic explanation, but I believe quite correct.

              Let me interject a personal thought here which seems to have upheld my
              own searchings in Anthroposophy, and that is to hold steady to
              Steiner. This statement in no way implies only Steiner was capable of
              approaching truths, but for myself, I always felt on sure ground by
              holding him as my guide. Practically all my Steiner books are the
              original translations with any possible corrections/explanatons made
              by a friend who worked for quite some years directly with Steiner.
              While this latter fact does not insure everything I have access to is
              totally and 100% accurate, it is the closest I personally am able to
              feel certain of what I study.

              It is really great to find so many inquiring minds striving for the
              truth via Anthroposophy, and it illustrates how greatly Steiner's work
              has progressed and evolved!

              Blessings,

              Sheila

              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Sheila and Robert,
              >
              > Thank you Sheila, I was able to find the lecture called "Preparing
              > for the Sixth Epoch", found at the archives.
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/PreSix_index.html This is lecture
              > 13 of a total of 15 from the volume: "The Secret of Death" which
              > contains all 15 lectures. However, when I did a search for the "The
              > Secret of Death" the closest match I came up with is Peter
              > Novak's "The Lost Secret of Death".
              > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6696/
              >
              > If Mr. Barnes mentioned to you that he apparently knew of no such
              > association as being valid from Steiner, then I am wondering if he
              > was aware of the quotes made by Tradowsky also.
              >
              >
              > Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It would
              > be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for
              > the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions
              > from. In this link which Novak quotes from Tradowsky
              > http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749 is he also
              > quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from Tradowsky?
              >
              > Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention Cyanide and
              > how it was used to murder millions of people, yet Bondarev who is
              > apparently sourcing his material from the same place as Tradowsky,
              > come to a conclusion that perhaps there could have been no
              > Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev claiming his impartial stance
              > in the matter, for I am in that same situation myself – not sure what
              > is the truth of the matter of the Holocaust, however there is
              > something missing here and I believe it is the "SOURCE".
              >
              > Are there any ideas on where to start looking for this?
              > Chris
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > To Chris, who wrote:
              > >
              > > >>Bondarev touches upon Cyanide and the
              > > negative effects of this susbtance on the Soul
              > > of Man. . . .
              > >
              > > >>I'm unable to locate the orignal material
              > > stemming from Rudolf Steiner.<<
              > >
              > > Robert writes:
              > >
              > > I'm glad that someone is reading those Bondy
              > > quotes that I so laboriously typed out. -- In
              > > the passage that you posted Bondarev cites
              > > Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923: the same
              > > one that "Novaliz" quotes from Tradowsky.
              > >
              > > Bondarev immediately follows with a comparison
              > > to the Atlantean catastrophe: "Let us merely
              > > recall the consequences of playing with black
              > > magic in the epoch of Old Atlantis." IMO
              > > Bondarev's argument here is one of his more
              > > dubious assertions in that book. It does seem
              > > somewhat speculative to me to state as a fact
              > > that a global ecological catastrophe would
              > > follow from six million deaths by cyanide. It
              > > does seem to be a plausible hypothesis worth
              > > consideration; thus I quoted it.
              > >
              > > But perhaps Bondarev was not "speculating" in
              > > the ordinary sense of the word. He does claim
              > > to be pursuing a "Goethean" investigation of
              > > contemporary politics; perhaps that
              > > "hypothesis" is a result of his *anschauender
              > > Urteilungskraft*? Maybe; but to me it is still
              > > somewhat dubious.
              > >
              > > Chris wrote:
              > >
              > > >>I am seeking the proper context in which we
              > > are to correctly under this death by cyanide.
              > > Please correct me if I am mistaken friends, but
              > > is this idea not "slightly reactionary" being
              > > that it is unlikely for anything to destroy the
              > > Soul?<<
              > >
              > > Robert writes:
              > >
              > > That lecture to the workmen is the only one (of
              > > which I am aware) in which Steiner remarks upon
              > > this theme. I think it might be well to recall
              > > the standard *caveat* that Steiner gave
              > > regarding the published lecture transcripts:
              > > they may contain mistakes. I think that we
              > > should use caution in building towering
              > > conclusions upon a few sketchy statements that
              > > were not (as far as we know) repeated and
              > > explained elsewhere. In reading these
              > > transcripts we need always to try to compare,
              > > collate, and fit single remarks into the
              > > totality of Steiner's teachings.
              > >
              > > When considering a puzzling remark such as this
              > > about "the true death of soul and spirit" by
              > > cyanide poisoning, I am cautious in two
              > > directions. I don't quite believe that
              > > anything other than one's own profound moral
              > > transgressions could cause the death of one's
              > > soul, much less one's spirit. On the other
              > > hand, I take it that Steiner is telling us
              > > something very important and very credible
              > > about dire consequences of cyanide poisoning; I
              > > would surely try to avoid (insofar as I have
              > > the power) killing anyone by cyanide.
              > >
              > > My opinion, for what it's worth.
              > >
              > > Robert Mason
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > ______________________________________________________________________
              > ______________
              > > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
              > new Car Finder tool.
              > > http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
              > >
              >
            • Robert Mason
              ... would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving their opinions from. In this
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 14, 2007
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                To Chris, who wrote:

                >>Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It
                would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am
                looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving
                their opinions from. In this link which Novak quotes from
                Tradowsky
                http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749
                is he also quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from
                Tradowsky?<<

                Robert writes:

                As I read Novaliz, the text within the single quotation
                marks is from Tradowsky, and the text within the
                double quotes is Novalis quoting Tradowsky quoting
                Steiner.

                I don't see that lecture at the eLib. If you live in
                the USA, you might be able to get the English version
                as a had copy from the RS Library in Ghent, NY. If
                you read German, you might get a e-text from the
                Nachlassverwaltung archive <www.rudolf-steiner.com>.

                Chris wrote:

                >>Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention
                Cyanide and how it was used to murder millions of people, yet
                Bondarev who is apparently sourcing his material from the same
                place as Tradowsky, come to a conclusion that perhaps there
                could have been no Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev
                claiming his impartial stance in the matter, for I am in that
                same situation myself – not sure what is the truth of the
                matter of the Holocaust, however there is something missing here
                and I believe it is the "SOURCE".<<

                Robert writes:

                I think that Tradowsky and Bondarev were reading the
                same text from Steiner, but that their differing
                opinions are due to the differences in their own
                personalities, their backgrounds, their other readings,
                and their methodologies. I would *guess* that
                Bondy may have read some "revisionist* historical
                accounts that Tradowsky had not. Bondarev is a
                Russian who has now been living in Switzerland for
                some years; I would guess (don't know) that Tradowsky
                has been living in Germany all along. Unorthodox,
                "revisionist" historical treatments of the "Holocaust"
                are under severe legal restrictions in Germany, and
                so might not have been readily available to Tradowsky.

                Thus, I don't think the "something missing" is this
                particular text from Steiner. To get a better
                understanding of Bondarev, you might want to get
                the whole book from Nelson Willby. And/or you
                might want to browse around in "revisionsist"
                literature about World War II etc. If you are
                in the USA and have uncensored Internet, this
                should be easy enough to do. Of course, one has
                to sift the wheat from the chaff. There are
                many place you could start; this might be one:
                <www.vho.org/GB/Books/hoh>.

                Robert Mason







                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • christopherraymond_bio
                Thank you Robert and Sheila, that was helpful information. I am still investigating the cyanide issue but I m no longer perplexed as to the the quotes
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 29, 2007
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                  Thank you Robert and Sheila, that was helpful information. I am still
                  investigating the cyanide issue but I'm no longer perplexed as to the
                  the quotes attributed to Dr. Steiner.

                  Chris.


                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > To Chris, who wrote:
                  >
                  > >>Robert, I cannot locate Steiner's lecture of Oct. 10, 1923. It
                  > would be helpful if we could locate his actual lecture. I am
                  > looking for the source which Tradowsky and Bondarev are deriving
                  > their opinions from. In this link which Novak quotes from
                  > Tradowsky
                  > http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=7749
                  > is he also quoting Steiner, or is he only quoting from
                  > Tradowsky?<<
                  >
                  > Robert writes:
                  >
                  > As I read Novaliz, the text within the single quotation
                  > marks is from Tradowsky, and the text within the
                  > double quotes is Novalis quoting Tradowsky quoting
                  > Steiner.
                  >
                  > I don't see that lecture at the eLib. If you live in
                  > the USA, you might be able to get the English version
                  > as a had copy from the RS Library in Ghent, NY. If
                  > you read German, you might get a e-text from the
                  > Nachlassverwaltung archive <www.rudolf-steiner.com>.
                  >
                  > Chris wrote:
                  >
                  > >>Dear seekers, I am wondering how Tradowsky could mention
                  > Cyanide and how it was used to murder millions of people, yet
                  > Bondarev who is apparently sourcing his material from the same
                  > place as Tradowsky, come to a conclusion that perhaps there
                  > could have been no Holocaust. I do not downplay Bondarev
                  > claiming his impartial stance in the matter, for I am in that
                  > same situation myself – not sure what is the truth of the
                  > matter of the Holocaust, however there is something missing here
                  > and I believe it is the "SOURCE".<<
                  >
                  > Robert writes:
                  >
                  > I think that Tradowsky and Bondarev were reading the
                  > same text from Steiner, but that their differing
                  > opinions are due to the differences in their own
                  > personalities, their backgrounds, their other readings,
                  > and their methodologies. I would *guess* that
                  > Bondy may have read some "revisionist* historical
                  > accounts that Tradowsky had not. Bondarev is a
                  > Russian who has now been living in Switzerland for
                  > some years; I would guess (don't know) that Tradowsky
                  > has been living in Germany all along. Unorthodox,
                  > "revisionist" historical treatments of the "Holocaust"
                  > are under severe legal restrictions in Germany, and
                  > so might not have been readily available to Tradowsky.
                  >
                  > Thus, I don't think the "something missing" is this
                  > particular text from Steiner. To get a better
                  > understanding of Bondarev, you might want to get
                  > the whole book from Nelson Willby. And/or you
                  > might want to browse around in "revisionsist"
                  > literature about World War II etc. If you are
                  > in the USA and have uncensored Internet, this
                  > should be easy enough to do. Of course, one has
                  > to sift the wheat from the chaff. There are
                  > many place you could start; this might be one:
                  > <www.vho.org/GB/Books/hoh>.
                  >
                  > Robert Mason
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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