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[steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bhagavad Gita

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  • My2Cents
    ... From: thepathofthesunflower [mailto: thepathofthesunflower@yahoo.com] To: steiner@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:30:38 -0000 Subject: [steiner]
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 20, 2007
      --- On Mon 03/19, thepathofthesunflower < thepathofthesunflower@... > wrote:
      From: thepathofthesunflower [mailto: thepathofthesunflower@...]
      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:30:38 -0000
      Subject: [steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bagavad Gita

      > Dear Caryn and all Members,
      >
      > I so very rarely post to the List I am sure no one recalls me, but
      that is not important. I was interested in the mention of Krishna.
      > I have a rather small book by Rudolf Steiner entitled "The Bagavad
      Gita and The Epistles of Paul" - as you recall, Krishna plays an
      important part in "The Bagavad Gita".
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Sheila


      Hi Sheila

      Thanks for your comment on my comment. I respect and appreciate what
      you say. I have not read Rudolf Steiner's 'the Bagavad Gita and the
      Epistles of Paul' and would dearly like to hear more about it. I
      will do a search in the meantime. I sincerely did not want to offend
      this ancient path; Krishna is an enlightened person.

      My opinion was based directly on the post I read under that group and
      my comments here are based on my understanding of Rudolf
      Steiner's 'the polarities of evolution : east and west'. The move
      from the sense/sensual meditation to the intellectual Ego meditation.
      Both important in the evolution of mankind.

      The sense/dream development stage living in and with the spritual
      world called the distant old moon stage. Later the manifestation of
      the individual logic and intellectual developed in the old sun stage
      and important to discern the sense-pictures, the remanence of the old
      moon stage, when it arises. This discernment is done through the Ego.

      It was/is important in the development of the human to break out of
      the collective old moon stage into the individual sun stage in order
      for the Ego to develop intectually and individually. To be one part
      of the whole and not collective-consciousness part of the collective
      consciousness.

      Without the individual intellect of the Ego the state of collective-
      consciousness arises as it was in the distant old Moon stage. This
      stage, equally important in human development, perceived itself to be
      part of nature and nature to be part of itself. However, when the
      time was right to develop further ie the Ego; certain entities did
      not want to let go of this dream like stage.

      During the old Sun stage the newest member to our spritual body - the
      Ego - was developed. Within this the Ego individually and intectually
      perceives outside of itself and with this the perception the Christ
      Impulse as the oneness of collective consciousness which in turn is
      perceived inwardly.

      The ancient path of the Bagavad Gita is honourable and very calming
      for the soul in the hands of a strong Ego.

      The intectually developed Ego aware of dream-like influences; that is.

      Please comment again Sheila and if the other members would like to
      comment as well.

      Best regards
      Caryn

      Dear Caryn and List Members,

      First I must apologize for my spelling error of Bagavad, which is spelled Bhagavad.

      "The Bhagavad Gita and the Epistles of St. Paul" is a series of 5 lectures Steiner gave in Cologne Dec 28, 29, 30 and 31, 1912 and January 1, 1913. My copy is the 1945 edition. As with all of Steiner's teachings these lectures are all-encompassing, bringing seemingly isolated and diverse time-spans and events into a Whole with a resulting meld illustrating the cohesiveness of mankind's evolution upon Earth as well as in the Spiritual World. These resulting panoramic truths are beyond my ability to consense. I would hope one would be stimulated to ponder through these lectures as we must ponder our way through all of Steiner's work in order to hopefully reach some understanding of Anthroposophy itself.

      Warm Regards,

      Sheila



      _______________________________________________
      No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
      Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
    • Durward Starman
      *******One way to approach the anthroposophic perspective on Krishna, Christ and the other religions of the world is to read a book published beofre Steiner
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 21, 2007
        *******One way to approach the "anthroposophic" perspective on Krishna,
        Christ and the other religions of the world is to read a book published
        beofre Steiner created anthroposophy, "The Great Initiates" by the French
        poet and mystic Eduard Schure. When Steiner published his first book on
        religion, Christianity As Mystical Fact and the Mysteries of Antiquity (in
        1902), he referred to it as being from the same source as Schure's earlier
        book, which describes how the founders of all world religions were initiates
        into the same truth and experienced the same spirit-world, but put their
        religions into different forms for their time and place. The first two
        chapters of Schure's book are on Rama and Krishna.

        All too often, people seek to conceal a hatred of Christianity and wish
        to tear it down behind a veneer of 'multiculturalism' and 'appreciation of
        other religions'. The Theosophists of Steiner's time and since certainly did
        so. True initiates always recognize the centrality of the Christ, and the
        earlier religions as stepping-stones to His Mission, not things separate
        from or superior to it. Edgar Cayce, for example, said in his readings that
        the Being we call Christ was the impelling force behind all religions:
        Yogananda recognized the Christ although an Eastern yogi.

        Steiner's point of view is that the modern initiate can appreciate and
        recognize the various world religions and classify them just we classify
        kingdoms of nature or steps in evolution. You put it very well, Caryn.

        Dr. Starman (writing from the Virgin Islands)

        www.DrStarman.com


        P.S. Welcome back, Sheila.


        >From: "My2Cents"<my2cents@...>
        >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bhagavad Gita
        >Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:00:38 -0400 (EDT)
        >
        >
        > --- On Mon 03/19, thepathofthesunflower < thepathofthesunflower@...
        > > wrote:
        >From: thepathofthesunflower [mailto: thepathofthesunflower@...]
        >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        >Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:30:38 -0000
        >Subject: [steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bagavad Gita
        >
        > > Dear Caryn and all Members,
        > >
        > > I so very rarely post to the List I am sure no one recalls me, but
        >that is not important. I was interested in the mention of Krishna.
        > > I have a rather small book by Rudolf Steiner entitled "The Bagavad
        >Gita and The Epistles of Paul" - as you recall, Krishna plays an
        >important part in "The Bagavad Gita".
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Sheila
        >
        >
        >Hi Sheila
        >
        >Thanks for your comment on my comment. I respect and appreciate what
        >you say. I have not read Rudolf Steiner's 'the Bagavad Gita and the
        >Epistles of Paul' and would dearly like to hear more about it. I
        >will do a search in the meantime. I sincerely did not want to offend
        >this ancient path; Krishna is an enlightened person.
        >
        >My opinion was based directly on the post I read under that group and
        >my comments here are based on my understanding of Rudolf
        >Steiner's 'the polarities of evolution : east and west'. The move
        >from the sense/sensual meditation to the intellectual Ego meditation.
        >Both important in the evolution of mankind.
        >
        >The sense/dream development stage living in and with the spritual
        >world called the distant old moon stage. Later the manifestation of
        >the individual logic and intellectual developed in the old sun stage
        >and important to discern the sense-pictures, the remanence of the old
        >moon stage, when it arises. This discernment is done through the Ego.
        >
        >It was/is important in the development of the human to break out of
        >the collective old moon stage into the individual sun stage in order
        >for the Ego to develop intectually and individually. To be one part
        >of the whole and not collective-consciousness part of the collective
        >consciousness.
        >
        >Without the individual intellect of the Ego the state of collective-
        >consciousness arises as it was in the distant old Moon stage. This
        >stage, equally important in human development, perceived itself to be
        >part of nature and nature to be part of itself. However, when the
        >time was right to develop further ie the Ego; certain entities did
        >not want to let go of this dream like stage.
        >
        >During the old Sun stage the newest member to our spritual body - the
        >Ego - was developed. Within this the Ego individually and intectually
        >perceives outside of itself and with this the perception the Christ
        >Impulse as the oneness of collective consciousness which in turn is
        >perceived inwardly.
        >
        >The ancient path of the Bagavad Gita is honourable and very calming
        >for the soul in the hands of a strong Ego.
        >
        >The intectually developed Ego aware of dream-like influences; that is.
        >
        >Please comment again Sheila and if the other members would like to
        >comment as well.
        >
        >Best regards
        >Caryn
        >
        >Dear Caryn and List Members,
        >
        >First I must apologize for my spelling error of Bagavad, which is spelled
        >Bhagavad.
        >
        >"The Bhagavad Gita and the Epistles of St. Paul" is a series of 5 lectures
        >Steiner gave in Cologne Dec 28, 29, 30 and 31, 1912 and January 1, 1913. My
        >copy is the 1945 edition. As with all of Steiner's teachings these
        >lectures are all-encompassing, bringing seemingly isolated and diverse
        >time-spans and events into a Whole with a resulting meld illustrating the
        >cohesiveness of mankind's evolution upon Earth as well as in the Spiritual
        >World. These resulting panoramic truths are beyond my ability to consense.
        >I would hope one would be stimulated to ponder through these lectures as we
        >must ponder our way through all of Steiner's work in order to hopefully
        >reach some understanding of Anthroposophy itself.
        >
        >Warm Regards,
        >
        >Sheila

        _________________________________________________________________
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      • My2Cents
        Dear Dr. Starman and all List Members, Thank you, Dr. Starman for your warm welcome [What joy the Virgin Islands must be for you all!] but most especially for
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 21, 2007
          Dear Dr. Starman and all List Members,

          Thank you, Dr. Starman for your warm welcome [What joy the Virgin Islands must be for you all!] but most especially for your reference to Eduard Schure's wonderful work, *The Great Initiates*. Schure's forward to this specific work is incredibly heart-warming and impressive as he describes his epiphany leading to this mighty book. Then of his first sight of Rudolf Steiner, he writes: "...Immediately two things became clear to me, even before Rudolf Steiner started to speak. For the very first time I was certain that an initiate stood before me. For a long time I had lived in spirit with initiates of the past, whose history and development I had attempted to describe. And here at last, one stood before me on the physical plane...."

          *The Great Initiates* creates for me an immense panoramic view of the spiritual sequences ever increasingly incorporating the evolution of those great predecessors leading to The Christ Being's presence upon the earthly plane. As so accurately stated, the first two chapters present Rama and Krishna, followed down through the eons by Hermes, Moses, Orpheus, Pythagoras and Plato to the goal comprising the final chapter: "Jesus, The Mission of Christ."

          I was fortunate to encounter this enormously vital work following years of study of Rudolf Steiner's works as they incorporate the steady approach of The Christ Impulse throughout the eons, which study in turn followed an introduction emanating from Edgar Cayce's great wisdom during my teen years.

          Thank you for bringing Dr. Schure's work to our attention, Dr. Starman. Your words, as always, bring inspiration and Light.

          Warm Regards to All,

          Sheila

          --- On Wed 03/21, Durward Starman < DrStarman@... > wrote:
          From: Durward Starman [mailto: DrStarman@...]
          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:13:47 -0400
          Subject: RE: [steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bhagavad Gita

          *******One way to approach the "anthroposophic" perspective on Krishna,
          Christ and the other religions of the world is to read a book published
          beofre Steiner created anthroposophy, "The Great Initiates" by the French
          poet and mystic Eduard Schure. When Steiner published his first book on
          religion, Christianity As Mystical Fact and the Mysteries of Antiquity (in
          1902), he referred to it as being from the same source as Schure's earlier
          book, which describes how the founders of all world religions were initiates
          into the same truth and experienced the same spirit-world, but put their
          religions into different forms for their time and place. The first two
          chapters of Schure's book are on Rama and Krishna.

          All too often, people seek to conceal a hatred of Christianity and wish
          to tear it down behind a veneer of 'multiculturalism' and 'appreciation of
          other religions'. The Theosophists of Steiner's time and since certainly did
          so. True initiates always recognize the centrality of the Christ, and the
          earlier religions as stepping-stones to His Mission, not things separate
          from or superior to it. Edgar Cayce, for example, said in his readings that
          the Being we call Christ was the impelling force behind all religions:
          Yogananda recognized the Christ although an Eastern yogi.

          Steiner's point of view is that the modern initiate can appreciate and
          recognize the various world religions and classify them just we classify
          kingdoms of nature or steps in evolution. You put it very well, Caryn.

          Dr. Starman (writing from the Virgin Islands)

          www.DrStarman.com

          P.S. Welcome back, Sheila.

          >From: "My2Cents"<my2cents@...>
          >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bhagavad Gita
          >Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:00:38 -0400 (EDT)
          >
          >
          > --- On Mon 03/19, thepathofthesunflower < thepathofthesunflower@...
          > > wrote:
          >From: thepathofthesunflower [mailto: thepathofthesunflower@...]
          >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          >Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:30:38 -0000
          >Subject: [steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bagavad Gita
          >
          > > Dear Caryn and all Members,
          > >
          > > I so very rarely post to the List I am sure no one recalls me, but
          >that is not important. I was interested in the mention of Krishna.
          > > I have a rather small book by Rudolf Steiner entitled "The Bagavad
          >Gita and The Epistles of Paul" - as you recall, Krishna plays an
          >important part in "The Bagavad Gita".
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Sheila
          >
          >
          >Hi Sheila
          >
          >Thanks for your comment on my comment. I respect and appreciate what
          >you say. I have not read Rudolf Steiner's 'the Bagavad Gita and the
          >Epistles of Paul' and would dearly like to hear more about it. I
          >will do a search in the meantime. I sincerely did not want to offend
          >this ancient path; Krishna is an enlightened person.
          >
          >My opinion was based directly on the post I read under that group and
          >my comments here are based on my understanding of Rudolf
          >Steiner's 'the polarities of evolution : east and west'. The move
          >from the sense/sensual meditation to the intellectual Ego meditation.
          >Both important in the evolution of mankind.
          >
          >The sense/dream development stage living in and with the spritual
          >world called the distant old moon stage. Later the manifestation of
          >the individual logic and intellectual developed in the old sun stage
          >and important to discern the sense-pictures, the remanence of the old
          >moon stage, when it arises. This discernment is done through the Ego.
          >
          >It was/is important in the development of the human to break out of
          >the collective old moon stage into the individual sun stage in order
          >for the Ego to develop intectually and individually. To be one part
          >of the whole and not collective-consciousness part of the collective
          >consciousness.
          >
          >Without the individual intellect of the Ego the state of collective-
          >consciousness arises as it was in the distant old Moon stage. This
          >stage, equally important in human development, perceived itself to be
          >part of nature and nature to be part of itself. However, when the
          >time was right to develop further ie the Ego; certain entities did
          >not want to let go of this dream like stage.
          >
          >During the old Sun stage the newest member to our spritual body - the
          >Ego - was developed. Within this the Ego individually and intectually
          >perceives outside of itself and with this the perception the Christ
          >Impulse as the oneness of collective consciousness which in turn is
          >perceived inwardly.
          >
          >The ancient path of the Bagavad Gita is honourable and very calming
          >for the soul in the hands of a strong Ego.
          >
          >The intectually developed Ego aware of dream-like influences; that is.
          >
          >Please comment again Sheila and if the other members would like to
          >comment as well.
          >
          >Best regards
          >Caryn
          >
          >Dear Caryn and List Members,
          >
          >First I must apologize for my spelling error of Bagavad, which is spelled
          >Bhagavad.
          >
          >"The Bhagavad Gita and the Epistles of St. Paul" is a series of 5 lectures
          >Steiner gave in Cologne Dec 28, 29, 30 and 31, 1912 and January 1, 1913. My
          >copy is the 1945 edition. As with all of Steiner's teachings these
          >lectures are all-encompassing, bringing seemingly isolated and diverse
          >time-spans and events into a Whole with a resulting meld illustrating the
          >cohesiveness of mankind's evolution upon Earth as well as in the Spiritual
          >World. These resulting panoramic truths are beyond my ability to consense.
          >I would hope one would be stimulated to ponder through these lectures as we
          >must ponder our way through all of Steiner's work in order to hopefully
          >reach some understanding of Anthroposophy itself.
          >
          >Warm Regards,
          >
          >Sheila



          _______________________________________________
          No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
          Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
        • Mathew Morrell
          Every 2,600 years an epochal-making shift occurs in human history that defies all deterministic laws of cause and effect. Without warning, new epochs are
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 21, 2007

            Every 2,600 years an epochal-making shift occurs in human history that defies all deterministic laws of cause and effect. Without warning, new epochs are born---not fabricated. They arise spontaneously, beyond our power to conceive them, and from a place too deep to will. As if from the cosmos itself the new epoch descends upon the magnetic currents of the world, a new idea, a new life, a new personality that is not merely an extension of the old, but an entirely New Soul radiating a new light and a new life, distinct unto itself. What issues from the Cosmos is Time. It is an actual out-rushing of thought that elevates the soul, not predictably, not continuously, but impulsively to the next level of evolution. Like a quanta of atomic energy jumping to the next orbital plane, with no intermediary steps in-between, the Greco-Roman civilization came into existence, a "conception" rather than a fabrication created determinately from preceding events or nature laws. Greece , Egypt , Persia , India ---were destined.

             

            The Hindu First Epoch. Begun 7227 BC. Extremely spiritual. Rejected the material world because it is "maya"---illusion. Total selflessness in service of spiritual principles. Anonymity possesses all Indian philosophy. Time did not exist in the Indian soul. Only an omni-present Now. A-historic.

             

            The Persian Second Epoch. 5067 BC to 2907. Dualism. Life is a battle between good and evil---Ahura Mazda against Ahriman. The apocalyptic mind is born, in which history is perceived as the advancement of "the tribe" through catastrophic tribulations. Man involved in the torturous act of becoming. The aim: re-unite the group soul with Universal Self.

             

            Egypto-Chaldean Third Epoch. 2908 BC to 747 BC.  Believed they were gods in flesh born from distant galaxies. The nation-cult. Excellent chroniclers of history---though non-interpretive. Invention of sun dials and water clocks. Believed the world existed in a time continuum---time, though, not an element "in its self". The present was an indivisible gap between two immeasurable expanses stretching into the future and the past, according to Egyptian mathmatics.

             

            The Greco-Roman Fourth Epoch. Begun when Rome was founded, in 747. Development of the "intellectual soul." Totally embraced their mortality, their human-ness and their materiality. Return of a-historic consciousness---disregard for time, past or future. The solidity of the present, of "man become," obsessed them, hence their fixation with statuary, Euclidean mathematics, conics, mathematical statistics, with things "as they are" as magnitudes existing purely in the space element. The apex of materialism.

             

            ** The Event of Golgotha shook the foundation of Greco-Roman Man, sending a thousand shock waves through his "temples" of thought. A new era of evolution begins, in which mankind begins to develop his individual consciousness. Instead of evolving through his group soul, his new temple becomes the temple of the "I". Evolution is put in the individual's hands.

             

            We are currently in the Euro-American Fifth Epoch. Begun in 1413. Development of the "consciousness soul." Time considered a thing "in its self." The awakening of the conscious soul gives man increased levels of objective thinking, and of being aware of himself as an individual. The rate of evolution has accelerated due to individuals transcending tribal thinking.

          • thepathofthesunflower
            ... spelled Bhagavad. ... lectures Steiner gave in Cologne Dec 28, 29, 30 and 31, 1912 and January 1, 1913. My copy is the 1945 edition. As with all of
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 22, 2007
              > Dear Caryn and List Members,
              >
              > First I must apologize for my spelling error of Bagavad, which is
              spelled Bhagavad.
              >
              > "The Bhagavad Gita and the Epistles of St. Paul" is a series of 5
              lectures Steiner gave in Cologne Dec 28, 29, 30 and 31, 1912 and
              January 1, 1913. My copy is the 1945 edition. As with all of
              Steiner's teachings these lectures are all-encompassing, bringing
              seemingly isolated and diverse time-spans and events into a Whole
              with a resulting meld illustrating the cohesiveness of mankind's
              evolution upon Earth as well as in the Spiritual World. These
              resulting panoramic truths are beyond my ability to consense. I would
              hope one would be stimulated to ponder through these lectures as we
              must ponder our way through all of Steiner's work in order to
              hopefully reach some understanding of Anthroposophy itself.
              >
              > Warm Regards,
              >
              > Sheila

              Hi Sheila and everyone

              Thanks for your reply Sheila, also please excuse my spelling mistake
              of Bhagavad! I am such a westerner and I recall Steiner saying 'when
              westerner's wear easterner clothes -they look out of place'!

              I have been thinking- is it coincidential Steiner lectured on the
              Bhagavad Gita and St Paul? Could it be St Paul experiencing the
              thunderbolt of light on the road to Damascus?

              Thanks for your posts Sheila, nice to read.
              Caryn
            • My2Cents
              ... From: thepathofthesunflower [mailto: thepathofthesunflower@yahoo.com] To: steiner@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:42:04 -0000 Subject: [steiner]
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 22, 2007
                --- On Thu 03/22, thepathofthesunflower < thepathofthesunflower@... > wrote:
                From: thepathofthesunflower [mailto: thepathofthesunflower@...]
                To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:42:04 -0000
                Subject: [steiner] Re: Krishna and The Bhagavad Gita

                > Dear Caryn and List Members,
                >
                > First I must apologize for my spelling error of Bagavad, which is
                spelled Bhagavad.
                >
                > "The Bhagavad Gita and the Epistles of St. Paul" is a series of 5
                lectures Steiner gave in Cologne Dec 28, 29, 30 and 31, 1912 and
                January 1, 1913. My copy is the 1945 edition. As with all of
                Steiner's teachings these lectures are all-encompassing, bringing
                seemingly isolated and diverse time-spans and events into a Whole
                with a resulting meld illustrating the cohesiveness of mankind's
                evolution upon Earth as well as in the Spiritual World. These
                resulting panoramic truths are beyond my ability to consense. I would
                hope one would be stimulated to ponder through these lectures as we
                must ponder our way through all of Steiner's work in order to
                hopefully reach some understanding of Anthroposophy itself.
                >
                > Warm Regards,
                >
                > Sheila

                Hi Sheila and everyone

                Thanks for your reply Sheila, also please excuse my spelling mistake
                of Bhagavad! I am such a westerner and I recall Steiner saying 'when
                westerner's wear easterner clothes -they look out of place'!

                I have been thinking- is it coincidential Steiner lectured on the
                Bhagavad Gita and St Paul? Could it be St Paul experiencing the
                thunderbolt of light on the road to Damascus?

                Thanks for your posts Sheila, nice to read.
                Caryn

                Hello again, Caryn and All List Members,

                Your postings, Caryn, are always full of interest, for which I am very
                glad, as well as for your healthy open ponderings. I must bow to the wise council of those far more knowledgeable than I for any attempt to respond to your excellent wonderings as outlined above other than to surmise nothing Steiner spoke of could have ever been coincidental.

                Unless I am mistaken, Paul's experience on the road to Damascus is to be found in Steiner's "The Background to the Gospel of St. Matthew" but I am not certain.

                I do hope this may have been of some help to you, Caryn.

                Blessings to All,

                Sheila

                _______________________________________________
                No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
                Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
              • John Massengale
                Where can one find evidence of a western tradition of reincarnation before Theosophy and Anthroposophy? Thanks, John
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 15 4:21 PM
                  Western tradition of reincarnation? Where can one find evidence of a western tradition of reincarnation before Theosophy and Anthroposophy?

                  Thanks,

                  John

                • Durward Starman
                  *******First, it was and still is a secret teaching of Orthodox Judaism. Then, Pythagoras taught it and it was thus a teaching of the Pythagorean school for a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 15 8:32 PM
                    *******First, it was and still is a secret teaching of Orthodox Judaism.
                    Then, Pythagoras taught it and it was thus a teaching of the Pythagorean
                    school for a thousand years, from about the 6th century B.C. till about the
                    4th c. A.D. when that school was suppressed; Plato, heavily influenced by
                    Pythagoras, also hinted at it. In the Gospels, Jesus identifed John the
                    Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah or Elias; He debates frequently with
                    a group called the Sadducees, identified as "the Sadducees, who say there is
                    no resurrection" ---this supposedly meant they believed death was the end,
                    in other words we do not reincarnate; and His disciples asked him if a man
                    born blind had caused his own blindness. Several of the early church
                    fathers, such as Origen, apparently taught it, not finding it contradictory
                    to how they understood Christianity; later, some sects condemned as heretics
                    seem to have taught it, such as the Cathars. Many figures of the
                    Renaissance, influenced by the Greeks, believed in it, such as Leonardo;
                    later free thinkers like Voltaire, who declared that "It is not more
                    surprising to born twice than once---everything in nature is resurrection";
                    some Masonic orders preserved this truth, and Mason Ben Franklin had placed
                    on his tombstone that in his grave lay a tattered "Book, its pages torn out,
                    that would appear in a new Edition, Revised and Corrected by the Author";
                    poets like Thomas Traherne and Longfellow wrote of their memories of
                    descending into this life from the spiritual state; the great English
                    translator of the Greeks, Thomas Taylor, was convinced of its truth by his
                    Hellenic studies; several of the Transcendentalists like Emerson and Herman
                    Melville likewise became convinced, and I believe Steiner pointed out how
                    several German idealist philosophers also arrived at the conviction of it,
                    such as Schilller in his "Letters on the Asthetic Education of Man". Thoreau
                    regarded our soul as a credit-and-debt ledger we carry from life to life and
                    English Poet Laureate John Masefield penned his confession of belief in
                    repeated earth lives in his poem "A Creed". I don't thnk any of them could
                    be regarded as Theosophists or anthroposophists or influenced by that
                    movement.

                    Dr. Starman

                    www.DrStarman.com





                    >From: John Massengale <john@...>
                    >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <steiner@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: [steiner] Western tradition of reincarnation?
                    >Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:21:27 -0400
                    >
                    >Where can one find evidence of a western tradition of reincarnation before
                    >Theosophy and Anthroposophy?
                    >
                    >Thanks,
                    >
                    >John
                    >
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
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                  • Mathew Morrell
                    There are several references to reincarnation in the New Testament. Starman named a couple. Here is another. Luke 16:20-31. 20) At his gate was laid a beggar
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 16 9:43 AM
                      There are several references to reincarnation in the New Testament.
                      Starman named a couple. Here is another. Luke 16:20-31.

                      20) At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
                      21) and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the
                      dogs came and licked his sores.

                      22) "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to
                      Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a]
                      where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with
                      Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have
                      pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and
                      cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

                      25) "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you
                      received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now
                      he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26) And besides all this,
                      between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who
                      want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from
                      there to us.'

                      27) "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my
                      father's house, 28) for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so
                      that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

                      29) "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them
                      listen to them.'

                      30) " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead
                      goes to them, they will repent.'

                      31) "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the
                      Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the
                      dead.' "
                    • Mathew Morrell
                      ** Today s Orthodox Jews are also very receptive to the idea reincarnation, going back mellenium. Their holy prayer book, the siddurim, mentions reincarnation
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 16 10:02 AM
                        ** Today's Orthodox Jews are also very receptive to the idea
                        reincarnation, going back mellenium. Their holy prayer book, the
                        siddurim, mentions reincarnation (gilgul) in relation to the atonement
                        of one's sins that a person may have committed in a previous life
                        time. The literal meaning of "gilgul" is reincarnation. Also, Hasidic
                        Jews believe that reincarnation into animal forms occurs with people
                        who live through their animal instincts during their life as a human.
                      • Mathew Morrell
                        I was hoping that somebody would respond to the Biblical passages that I quoted concerning reincarnation. I suppose no one read it. The passage was from Luke
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 20 2:05 PM

                          I was hoping that somebody would respond to the Biblical passages that I quoted concerning reincarnation.  I suppose no one read it.

                          The passage was from Luke and is the quintessential passage that some theologians use to prove their belief that reincarnation does not exist in Christian theology.  You'll need to be familiar with these specific passages if you ever get into a debate on this subject.  The deniers of reincarnation will undoubtedly quote it, specifically Luke 16:25, in their attempt to disprove your argument for reincarnation.

                          25) "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

                          If you didn't read the above passage carefully, you'll get confused.  Your mind will blur the context of the phrase and you'll finish the passage thinking, erroneously, that the "great chasm" exists between the spirit world and the material world.  Yet the passage doesn't say anything of that sort.

                          The "great chasm" exists between heaven and hell, between where Lazarus exists in heaven and where "the rich man" is speaking to Abraham---from hell.  Lazarus never says "the great" chasm exists between the spirit world and the elemental Natural World, which is the realm of The Father. 

                          The chasm exists in the heart.  No chasm can separate the Natural World from the Spirit because the World itself is a manifestation of the spiritual kingdoms; it is a kind of mystical cross road where good and evil play equal parts.

                          Indeed, once he realizes this, the "rich man" is not comforted.  In torment, he begs Abraham to send Lazarus to the father's house.  "Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." [Luke 16:29]

                          Abraham denies the request, but not on the grounds that reincarnation is impossible.  Abraham denies returning Lazarus to "the father's house" because he doubts that Lazarus' direct intervention will do any good in saving "the rich man's" brothers.  Instead, Abraham replied: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."

                           

                           


                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > There are several references to reincarnation in the New Testament.
                          > Starman named a couple. Here is another. Luke 16:20-31.
                          >
                          > 20) At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
                          > 21) and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the
                          > dogs came and licked his sores.
                          >
                          > 22) "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to
                          > Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a]
                          > where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with
                          > Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have
                          > pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and
                          > cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
                          >
                          > 25) "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you
                          > received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now
                          > he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26) And besides all this,
                          > between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who
                          > want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from
                          > there to us.'
                          >
                          > 27) "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my
                          > father's house, 28) for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so
                          > that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
                          >
                          > 29) "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them
                          > listen to them.'
                          >
                          > 30) " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead
                          > goes to them, they will repent.'
                          >
                          > 31) "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the
                          > Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the
                          > dead.' "
                          >

                        • carynlouise
                          Hi everyone, hope you are all well. I took a break twas nice. Also change my sign in name from pathsunflower (thought it a bit long, the name that is not the
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 7, 2007
                            Hi everyone, hope you are all well. I took a break 'twas nice. Also
                            change my sign in name from pathsunflower (thought it a bit long, the
                            name that is not the path!!)

                            Nice topic; reincarnation is a subject I have been studying in the
                            Bible. Appreciated your post Matthew and comments on Luke 16.

                            Here's my study todate - it's a bit long as I also include Steiner to
                            go with it;

                            Reincarnation in the Bible-

                            St Matthew 17v10-13
                            10: And his disciples, asked him saying, Why then say the scribes
                            that Elias must first come?
                            11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first
                            come, and restore all things.
                            12: But I say unto you that Elias is come already, and they knew him
                            not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall
                            also the Son of Man suffer of them.
                            13: Then his disciples understood that he spake unto them of John
                            the Baptist.

                            Genesis 50:25
                            And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will
                            surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

                            Exodus 13:19
                            And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly
                            sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and
                            ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

                            To me this is saying Joseph is Moses and Moses is Joseph:

                            Joseph (Jacob's son) born 1761 BC and died:
                            Exodus 1:6 : 'And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that
                            generation'.

                            448 years later Moses was born 1313 BC.

                            Steiner says the period between earthly lives is about 500 years. In
                            Exodus Moses is carrying Joseph's bones (literally within himself)
                            out of Egypt.

                            St John 3:3 `Unless a man be born again he cannot enter into the
                            kingdom of Heaven' - literal straight forward meaning.

                            1 Peter 1:23 `As ye sow, so shall ye reap'

                            Others as well: Matthew 13, Job 14:7, 1 Corinthians 15, Isaiah 55:13

                            And now we read-

                            St John 5:19
                            19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
                            unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the
                            Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son
                            likewise.
                            20: For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that
                            himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye
                            may marvel.
                            21: For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even
                            so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
                            22: For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment
                            unto the Son:
                            23: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the
                            Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which
                            hath sent him.
                            24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
                            believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not
                            come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
                            25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
                            when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that
                            hear shall live.
                            26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the
                            Son to have life in himself;
                            27: And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because
                            he is the Son of man.
                            28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that
                            are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                            29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
                            resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
                            resurrection of damnation.

                            I think it is from verse 25 which needs understanding in relation to
                            reincarnation –

                            There are similar passages in the Bible; when Jesus died on the cross
                            there was a solar eclipse that lasted for three hours and people rose
                            from the grave and went into the Holy City of Jerusalem.

                            Does verse 24 give us understanding of the parables spoken on
                            reincarnation?

                            Rudolf Steiner

                            Reincarnation and Karma
                            The Human soul as formal unity, as connecting Ego, returns in new
                            human bodies and is thus enabled to pass through all the stages of
                            human evolution.

                            This is the content of the Law of Karma which says: all my talents
                            and deeds in my present life do not exist separately as a miracle,
                            but they are connected as effect with the previous forms of existence
                            of my soul and as cause with future ones.

                            Christianity as a Mystical Fact
                            Heraclitus does extend this characterization to man: "Living and dead
                            are the same and so are waking and sleeping, youth and age. For the
                            one in changing becomes the other, and the other, changing, again
                            becomes the one."

                            Full cognition of the illusory character of the lower personality is
                            expressed in this sentence. He speaks of this even more
                            forcibly: "There is life and death in our life, just as in our
                            death." What does this mean except that life can be valued more
                            highly than death only when seen from the point of view of the
                            transitory.

                            Death is decay to make room for new life, but the eternal lives in
                            the new life as in the old. The same eternal appears in transitory
                            life as in death. When man has grasped this eternal he looks upon
                            death with the same feelings as he looks upon life. Only if he is
                            unable to awaken this eternal within himself does life have a special
                            value for him. The sentence, "Everything is in a state of flux" may
                            be trotted out a thousand times, but if it is not spoken with a
                            feeling for this content it is void of meaning. Cognition of eternal
                            creation is valueless if it does not cancel out our dependence upon
                            earthly creation. Heraclitus means to repudiate the lust for life
                            which presses after transitory things with the saying, "How shall we
                            say of our daily life: `we are,' when we know that from the
                            standpoint of the eternal: `we are and we are not.'" (Heraclitus,
                            Fragment No. 81)

                            "But Hades is the same as Dionysus," states another of the Fragments
                            of Heraclitus. Dionysus, the god of lust for life, of germination and
                            growth, to whom the Dionysian festivals were dedicated, is for
                            Heraclitus the same as Hades, the god of annihilation and destruction.

                            Only one who sees life within death and death within life, and in
                            both the eternal which is infinitely above life and death, his gaze
                            alone can behold in the right light the disadvantages and advantages
                            of existence. Then the disadvantages find their justification, for
                            the eternal lives in them also. What they appear to be from the
                            standpoint of the limited lower life is only illusory: "For men to
                            get all they wish is not the better thing. It is disease that makes
                            health a pleasant thing; evil, good; hunger, surfeit; and toil,
                            rest." "Sea water is the most pure and the most polluted; for fishes
                            it is drinkable and salutary, but for men it is undrinkable and
                            deleterious."

                            If we apply this to the spiritual world we have the thought of
                            Heraclitus: "Immortals take on mortality, mortals immortality; death
                            is the eternal life of mortals, earthly life the death of immortals."

                            God has descended into the world of things. Whoever receives these
                            things without God receives them seriously as the "Tombs of God." He
                            should play with them like a child and employ his seriousness to draw
                            out of them the God who sleeps spellbound within.

                            Thus we understand Plato's words: "Whoever goes uninitiated and
                            unsanctified to the other world will lie in the mire, but he who
                            arrives there initiated and purified will dwell with the gods."

                            And the heavenly bodies move according to the laws he has
                            established. From this it follows immediately that the functions of
                            the human soul are not a force apart from the rest of the cosmos, but
                            that these functions are the expression of a law-abiding pattern
                            which is interwoven with the cosmos. The Pythagorean said to himself:
                            The senses show material phenomena to man. But they do not show the
                            harmonious patterns which the objects obey. Rather, the spirit of man
                            must first find these harmonious patterns within himself if he wishes
                            to behold them outside in the cosmos.

                            The deeper sense of the cosmos, that which reigns in it as eternal
                            law-abiding necessity, becomes apparent as a present reality in the
                            human soul. In the soul the meaning of the cosmos dawns. This meaning
                            does not lie in what is seen, heard and touched, but in what the soul
                            brings forth from its deep recesses into the light of day. The
                            eternal pattern therefore lies hidden in the depths of the soul. Let
                            us descend into the soul, and we shall find the eternal. God, the
                            eternal cosmic harmony, is within the human soul. The soul is not
                            confined to the physical body enclosed by man's skin. For in the soul
                            are born the patterns according to which the worlds circle in space.
                            ~~

                            So with this in my understanding of St. John's 5; the dead in the
                            graves are not dead and the graves are spiritual realms .. outside
                            the Holy City .. through repeated earth lives, through the 12
                            patterns of the Zodiac, growing closer to Christ do we enter the Holy
                            City? This is; the closer we become with Christ in repeated earth
                            lives the better our spiritual lives are between earthly lives. This
                            betterment may be an awakening to the full or whole pattern each time
                            we enter the realms between earthly lives and the whole pattern is
                            the Holy City.

                            My thoughts on this hefty subject – what do you think?

                            My regards
                            Caryn
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