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PoF - how does thinking receive a concept by intuition?

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  • Lee Noonan
    Hi I haven t posted for a while . since the end of 2003 in fact when I was reading Theosophy. So I d better introduce myself again. My name is Lee and I
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 8, 2006
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      Hi

       

      I haven’t posted for a while … since the end of 2003 in fact when I was reading Theosophy.   So I’d better introduce myself again.   My name is Lee and I live in Botton Village Camphill community in North Yorkshire, England, with my wife ,  who is a 3rd year Eurythmy student, and my 8 year old son.  

       

      http://www.camphill.org.uk/botton.htm

       

       

      I have read the first half of Philosophy of Freedom (Michael Wilson translation) and I have some questions.

       

       

      Just how does thinking trigger the process whereby a concept is received by intuition from the universal world of ideas?

       

      I observe a tree.   I have a percept of the tree.

       

      I start thinking.

       

      My thinking receives the concept tree.   How does that happen?

       

      I now have the real object tree = percept of tree + concept of tree.   I now know the tree

       

      But I wasn’t conscious of the referring of the concept tree to the percept of the tree.

       

      Is my thinking using the percept as a reference to search the universe for the corresponding concept or is the concept and the percept given simultaneously and the thinking putting them back together again?

       

      And then I take this percept and concept and I have a mental picture of the tree.   

       

      I then stop looking at the tree.   The mental picture remains.

       

      Where is this mental picture living now?    In my memory?

       

      And then I look at the tree again,   And I have a new percept of the tree.

       

      Now is my thinking going to get the concept from my last mental picture or from he universal world of ideas again?   Or does the same process happen as the first time ie I receive the universal concept and my thinking adds to the percept but then the mental picture is updated?

       

      That’s probably enough for starters

       

      Lee

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

    • thepathofthesunflower
      Hi Lee Great muse. Exactly what we talking about what is reality under Chantels thread. I cannot say I am an expert in saying what I do, I can be a bit of
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 9, 2006
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        Hi Lee

        Great muse. Exactly what we talking about 'what is reality' under
        Chantels thread. I cannot say I am an expert in saying what I do, I
        can be a bit of an airhead a the best of times. But Steiner, in his
        wisdom, did talk about this and my reply is based on my understanding
        on his work, of which Im nowhere complete.

        I've just copied my words written under Chantels thread to keep the
        train of thought;

        ... the world then seems to become a stage; the actors and props seem
        to become shadows waiting for senses to fill them in ..

        Further;
        It is said God lies spellbound in nature and it is God in us who
        recognises God in nature which in turn awakens us to perceive God as
        a living God.

        Right; but now we need the science to understand the glory of our
        living God. Help might be needed here! also, i am not quoting Steiner
        direct.

        'My thinking receives the concept tree. How does that happen?'

        A tree is an art of creation from the post Saturn days. When we were
        in spirit forms before descending into pre-Earth we were part of this
        creation and we beholded the etheric material take form into a tree,
        through evolution. Our thinking receives the concept of the tree
        because our memory databank tells us this is a tree.

        'Is my thinking using the percept as a reference to search the
        universe for the corresponding concept or is the concept and the
        percept given simultaneously and the thinking putting them back
        together again?'

        I would say the percept is given simultaneously; the abstract concept
        of the tree combined with the rational thought from memory.

        'Where is this mental picture living now? In my memory?'
        Yes as an object perceived outside oneself and taken inside oneself.
        So when we pass-over into the spiritual worlds we are able to call up
        this image, which dwells in our Etheric/Buddhi spiritual body, and
        have a tree in our spiritual world.

        'Now is my thinking going to get the concept from my last mental
        picture or from he universal world of ideas again? Or does the same
        process happen as the first time ie I receive the universal concept
        and my thinking adds to the percept but then the mental picture is
        updated'?

        The framework of the tree is there; inside and outside. Inside to be
        released through rational thought identity as matter in the physical
        plane and as spiritual matter in the spiritual plane released through
        our carrier and transmitter of memory our Etheric/Buddhi (spiritual)
        organs. I would say the update of the tree comes through emotions,
        if you are feeling happy (in both planes) the tree would be in
        blossom. If you feeling sad the tree would have no leaves?

        Lee, please let you know what you think of my interpretation, i might
        be missing something and maybe even lost the plot! Im sure Steiner
        would have been able to explain this far better.

        Anyway nice day to you.
        Caryn
      • Durward Starman
        ... *******Welcome back Lee, yes I d say that s actually quite a bit! For the benefit of newcomers, Steiner wrote philosophical works for many years before
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 9, 2006
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          >From: "Lee Noonan" <leeanoonan@...>
          >Subject: [steiner] PoF - how does thinking receive a concept by intuition?

          >Hi
          >I haven't posted for a while . since the end of 2003 in fact when I was
          >reading Theosophy. So I'd better introduce myself again. My name is Lee
          >and I live in Botton Village Camphill community in North Yorkshire,
          >England,
          >with my wife , who is a 3rd year Eurythmy student, and my 8 year old son.
          >http://www.camphill.org.uk/botton.htm
          >
          >I have read the first half of Philosophy of Freedom (Michael Wilson
          >translation) and I have some questions.
          >Just how does thinking trigger the process whereby a concept is received by
          >intuition from the universal world of ideas?
          >
          >I observe a tree. I have a percept of the tree.
          >
          >I start thinking.
          >
          >My thinking receives the concept tree. How does that happen?
          >
          >I now have the real object tree = percept of tree + concept of tree. I
          >now
          >know the tree
          >
          >But I wasn't conscious of the referring of the concept tree to the percept
          >of the tree.
          >
          >Is my thinking using the percept as a reference to search the universe for
          >the corresponding concept or is the concept and the percept given
          >simultaneously and the thinking putting them back together again?
          >
          >And then I take this percept and concept and I have a mental picture of the
          >tree.
          >
          >I then stop looking at the tree. The mental picture remains.
          >
          >Where is this mental picture living now? In my memory?
          >
          >And then I look at the tree again, And I have a new percept of the tree.
          >
          >Now is my thinking going to get the concept from my last mental picture or
          >from he universal world of ideas again? Or does the same process happen
          >as
          >the first time ie I receive the universal concept and my thinking adds to
          >the percept but then the mental picture is updated?

          >That's probably enough for starters
          >
          >Lee
          >
          *******Welcome back Lee, yes I'd say that's actually quite a bit! For the
          benefit of newcomers, Steiner wrote philosophical works for many years
          before becoming a Theosophist, and his main philosophical work was called
          The Philosophy of Freedom (actually he said it shouldn't be called that in
          English). Our little online group here studied it together a few years ago
          for the 12 holy nights, but it's very difficult for a lot of people, he
          said. I also did a summary of it which Matthew has been good enough to post
          on the Internet (here: http://kcpost.net/EastMW_Anth.htm ), although one
          part of the section on the Philosophy of Freedom is a bit jumbled up.

          The theory of knowledge presented by Steiner has four levels: the percept
          is given by the senses, while the concept is drawn by intuition from the
          universal world of concepts. What's meant by that is that when we think, we
          all have the same concepts, not different ones. It's easier to see this
          with the usual entities used in pure thinking, mathematical and geometrical
          objects. When we think the concept "triangle", we all are thinking "figure
          of three lines whose inner angles add up to 180�". We first have to name the
          concept when, in pure thinking, we learn geometry. Afterwards, we can
          recognize any triangular object as being one. Points, lines, and planes are
          pure ideas in this universal world of concepts. Thinking means relating one
          pure idea to another, or the equivalent of going from one experience or
          place to another in the sense world.

          When we pass from relating one geometrical entity to another in pure
          thinking to the relating of this activity to things we perceive, then we
          convert the concept or idea into a mental image (the German "vorstellungen"
          or representation), which is a concept RELATED TO a particular percept.
          When Steiner talks about thinking, he means the pure thinking as in
          mathematics and geometry; in ordinary everyday life, most people spend their
          time having mental images, relating one representation to another. We seldom
          think in pure thinking. If you think back to your experience of thinking in
          high school in mathematics class, that was when you could have a clear
          experience of the pure and non-material nature of thinking. Nowadays, most
          people no longer have this clear experience of thinking. We "think" in
          images, strongly connected with feeling. This is the fourth level Steiner
          identifies, that of giving life to our ideas and mental images by connecting
          them with feeling. That's not really thinking, it's more like having
          reveries (mental images are what memory deals with).

          So the answer to your question requires a re-experiencing of what we do
          in REAL thinking. That's a very deep thing. Unless you work daily with pure
          thinking, most people never connect their mental images of tables and chairs
          to the hierarchy of concepts "table" or "chair" is a subsection of
          "furniture", which is a subsection of " all objects made of wood." Just as
          man is a mammal, which is one of 12 phyla of the animal kingdom, which is
          one of the three kingdoms of life on Earth, but in ordinary everyday life we
          never think of this hierarchy of reality and where we are placed in it, so
          too most of us use the hierarchy of concepts every day without really
          experiencing it anymore.


          The gaining of every idea or concept is a drawing of that idea out of the
          universal world of concepts by intuition. It's a spiritual activity that
          most of us no longer experience as the non- material experience it is. But
          one key to reexperiencing it is in the sequence of things you wrote above. "
          I have a percept of the tree. I start thinking." Only if you WILL yourself
          to think is this true. A person can simply stare at a tree and not think.
          Intuition is willing your spiritual self to participate in the spiritual
          world which we here have called the universal world of concepts.

          That's a little bit of an answer. But since it's so intimately related to
          our being, each of us has to work out the answer for ourselves, experience
          it. So let's discuss it some more, I'm sure other people can contribute
          something towards this.

          Starman

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