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Re: [steiner] To Love

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  • starmann77@aol.com
    *******I m surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online here: the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and again in
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
      *******I'm surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online here:
      the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and
      again in Lecture 6 about the "I AM". So many people interested in the Spirit
      but alienated from our dead Christian churches wind up reading Eastern stuff
      that says over and over that the Self is bad, it's an evil illusion you must
      get rid of and yadda yadda yadda, that I'm surprised no one responded with
      any comments about the enormous difference of Steiner's take on things,
      namely that the Ego is the immortal spirit in Man and the force that raises
      us up ever higher, transforming the astral, etheric and physical bodies into
      Manas, Budhi and Atman. Wasn't anyone surprised?

      Second, about love. I wonder if anyone noticed the little passage that
      struck me in Lecture 3 where he was talking about the Earth becoming a Cosmos
      of Love (at the bottom of the 6th page of the lecture in my book): "What then
      is essential for love? What is essential in order that one person love
      another? It is this---that he be in possession of his full
      self-consciousness, that he be wholly independent. No one can love another in
      the full sense of the word if this love be not a free gift of one person to
      another. My hand does not love my organism. Only one who is independent, one
      who is not bound to the other person, can love him. To this end the human
      being had to become an ego-being." It's identical to the sentiments I once
      heard expressed by Ayn Rand: In order to say I love you, you must first learn
      to say the "I" part. Anything else is not love but "co-dependency" as we call
      it now--- two weak people hanging together and reinforcing each others'
      negative traits, because the subconscious must rule such relationships. Only
      two fully self-conscious people can truly know love, he's saying. Then it
      seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE able to
      be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will strengthen
      & support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it down. There's
      how to recognize the real thing, then.

      Dr. Starman
    • Jeff Auen
      Sarah, Let me get personal. This example, I am sure has been experienced by many others. In my early explorations and search for spiritual experience, I
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
        Sarah,

        Let me get personal. This example, I am sure has been experienced by many others. In my early explorations and search for spiritual experience, I studied with and visited many teachers, primarily from the East and India. Two friends and I encountered one such teacher who spoke of nothing but love and associated himself exclusively with the mystic heart path. We were drawn to this path as a counterpoint to our dry and sterile education at UW Madison. Eventually it lead me to India at 19. While there, we had many life changing experiences and gained a certainty about many spiritual and metaphysical claims spoken of in the "literature" of mysticism. When
        there, many of the visitors (from America) had experiences of profound love beyond anything we have had since. This state of love/ energy permeated every part of us. It was within us and could be felt and experienced with everyone else and even into stones. We were filled with it and it changed every thought, feeling and action we had. One could not speak or think harmfully of others; we did not have to eat much; and this feeling was shared equally with others. When back in the states and in school, the intensity gradually wore away and eventually it subsided totally. It was a gift from another Being but the embers were not strong enough to sustain it
        over time. For those who have had this experience, a clear distinction is known between any human state of love and divine love which penetrates every particle of creation. This is the sort of love I was referring to though not so dramatic and life changing. This love is transforming in the way St. Paul spoke of it in the Epistles. This, in even its simplest form, cannot be generated or expanded like other capacities we have.

        Sarah Cherry wrote:

        > Jeff wrote:
        >
        > Quite simply, unless I am very unique from others, I cannot just turn the feeling of love on and direct it as a true feeling force to others.Compassion, sensitivity to others etc. is not the same feeling state as love. Sometimes "it" is there and flows forth and sometimes nothing I can do can rekindle this flow. Sometimes, we experience this with our mates or family and friends but I am also speaking of it also in the board sense towards others and nature. In thinking and willing, we can generate it by concentration, application intelligence, "putting our shoulder up against the wheel and pushing" but generating true love is not so direct or possible.
        >
      • Morgan Vierheller
        ... There is a person (of a group of 40-50) that I dance with (Universal Worship/Sufi) that have affected me this way when we dance. Although he leads the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
           

          Jeff Auen wrote:

          ...Two friends and I  encountered one such teacher who spoke of nothing but love and associated himself exclusively with the mystic heart path. ... many of the visitors (from America) had experiences of profound love beyond anything we have had since. This state of  love/ energy permeated every part of us. It was within us and could be felt and experienced with everyone else and even into stones. We were filled with it and it changed every  thought, feeling and action we had. One could not speak  or think  harmfully of others; we did not have to eat much;  and this feeling was shared equally with others.
          There is a person (of a group of 40-50) that I dance with (Universal Worship/Sufi) that have affected me this way when we dance.  Although he leads the dance with his music and does not come out into the circle his warmth and love for the form radiates from him so brightly that there is a flood of love and warmth.
          I am also dismayed that the bustle and noise tends to drown out the feeling after a few days but I am happy to feel it for the time that it occurs.

          Thank you for the wonderful story!

          Morgan

           
          . For those who have had this experience, a clear distinction is known between any human state of love and divine love which penetrates every particle of creation. This is the sort of love I was referring to though not so dramatic and life changing. This love is transforming in the way St. Paul spoke of it in the Epistles. This, in even its simplest form, cannot be generated or expanded like other capacities we have.
           

        • Morgan Vierheller
          ... This is a good point you have here. I had the privilege of discussing this with my 11th grade class where we compared Siddhartha with Ayn Rand s Anthem.
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
             

            starmann77@... wrote:

            *******I'm surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online here: the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and again in Lecture 6 about the "I AM". So many people interested in the Spirit but alienated from our dead Christian churches wind up reading Eastern stuff that says over and over that the Self is bad, ....
            This is a good point you have here.  I had the privilege of discussing this with my 11th grade class where we compared Siddhartha with Ayn Rand's Anthem.  After the journey  with Siddhartha and his path to Atman and then experiencing the lack of "I-dentification" :) in Anthem and Equality's discovery of the forbidden word (I) we had a great conversation regarding the nature and expression of the ego.  We looked at inventors and what drove them and how they followed a compulsion that flowed through them out into the world.  They came up with some great questions.
            Anthem is not Rand's best work but its message is clear.
             
                 Second, about love. I wonder if anyone noticed the little passage that
            struck me in Lecture 3 where he was talking about the Earth becoming a Cosmos of Love (at the bottom of the 6th page of the lecture in my book):
            I see that I was not thorough enough in my synopsis.  The whole purpose of this evolution is the perfection, generation and permeation of Love.
             

            Love and self-immolation are not compatible:

            Then it seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE able to be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will strengthen & support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it down. There's how to recognize the real thing, then.
            Amen:)

            Morgan

          • Sarah Cherry
            [My e-mail was down last night, and from the posts this morning, I see my comments plagiarize Morgan a bit :-). I, too, have been disappointed that we haven t
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 2, 2001
              [My e-mail was down last night, and from the posts this morning, I
              see my comments plagiarize Morgan a bit :-). I, too, have been
              disappointed that we haven't had more discussion. I hope the
              discussion will continue well into the new year and specifically so
              we can know one another more deeply. I have also felt pressed to
              "keep up" with the reading and not had so much time to comment, but I
              feel reading in unison, so to speak, was beneficial.]

              At 11:41 AM -0500 1/1/01, starmann77@... wrote:
              <snip>
              >that the Ego is the immortal spirit in Man and the force that raises
              >us up ever higher, transforming the astral, etheric and physical bodies into
              >Manas, Budhi and Atman. Wasn't anyone surprised?

              To tell you the truth, I have become so accustomed to this concept in
              Steiner's work, that I am immune to being in awe by this
              revaluation. (so much for child-like wonder, huh? :-) However, I am
              in awe of the way he described the relationship of man's development
              to our understanding of architecture. "In a Gothic church you can see
              that what is expressed in its form cannot possible be thought of or
              felt without the presence of the devotional congregation.<snip> If
              the devotional congregation were not within, and the hands were not
              placed together in the form of the arch, the whole would be
              incomplete." What a picture of ego-beings as co-creators!

              <long snip>

              >Then it
              >seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE able to
              >be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will strengthen
              >& support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it down. There's
              >how to recognize the real thing, then.

              From my southern protestant childhood.... Ahmen!


              Along that line, one of my favorite quotes;

              "It is more noble to give yourself completely to one individual than
              to labor diligently for the salvation of the masses." Dag
              Hammarskjold

              Without a strong "I", there's nothing to give, and you won't have a
              clue as to what Hammarskjold is talking about!

              Sarah
            • starmann77@aol.com
              ... again ... that ... mrgnsms@earthlink.net writes: This is a good point you have here. I had the privilege of discussing this with my 11th grade class where
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 2, 2001
                > *******I'm surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online
                here:
                > the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and
                again
                > in Lecture 6 about the "I AM". So many people interested in the Spirit but
                > alienated from our dead Christian churches wind up reading Eastern stuff
                that
                > says over and over that the Self is bad....
                mrgnsms@... writes:
                This is a good point you have here. I had the privilege of discussing this
                with
                my 11th grade class where we compared Siddhartha with Ayn Rand's Anthem.
                After
                the journey with Siddhartha and his path to Atman and then experiencing the
                lack of "I-dentification" :) in Anthem and Equality's discovery of the
                forbidden
                word (I) we had a great conversation regarding the nature and expression of
                the
                ego. We looked at inventors and what drove them and how they followed a
                compulsion that flowed through them out into the world. They came up with
                some
                great questions.
                Anthem is not Rand's best work but its message is clear.
                >>

                *******Yes, and I have always embraced both Objectivism and Libertarianism as
                well as Anthroposophy---and have been amazed at how many anthroposophists
                support socialism and anti-individualist philosophies, without seeing the
                contradictions. Good for you, using Anthem with young minds.

                >>Love and self-immolation are not compatible:

                > Then it seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE
                > able to be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will
                > strengthen & support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it
                down.
                > There's how to recognize the real thing, then.

                Amen:)

                Morgan
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