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Re: [steiner] To Love

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  • Sarah Cherry
    ... While running the risk of straining at gnats, I ll pursue this conversation a little longer. I guess I think there is a causal relationship between love
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
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      Jeff wrote:
      >Quite simply, unless I am very unique from others, I cannot just
      >turn the feeling of love on and direct it as a true feeling force
      >to others.Compassion, sensitivity to others etc. is not the same
      >feeling state as love. Sometimes "it" is there and flows forth and
      >sometimes nothing I can do can rekindle this flow. Sometimes, we
      >experience this with our mates or family and friends but I am also
      >speaking of it also in the board sense towards others and nature.
      >In thinking and willing, we can generate it by concentration,
      >application intelligence, "putting our shoulder up against the wheel
      >and pushing" but generating true love is not so direct or possible.


      While running the risk of straining at gnats, I'll pursue this
      conversation a little longer.

      I guess I think there is a causal relationship between love and, as
      you say, "putting our shoulder up against the wheel and pushing".
      There are many steps involved in overcoming our lower natures, and I
      don't mean to say that I think it's easy. Also, I don't experience
      love a only feeling state, I experience it in the thinking as well.
      The thinking state of the heart is quite different from the thinking
      of the head. However, I'm right with you in that sometimes...it just
      ain't there-and there's nothing I can do about it.

      Maybe you can elaborate on love as a "true feeling force"?

      I just had a thought that perhaps this group might want to read
      together the lecture "Love and Its Meaning". I then did a search on
      the e.lib for the work, so we'd all have access to a copy. The
      results of my search revealed the following:

      1) A quote: "Love starts when we push aside our ego and make room for
      someone else." (this is where *I* certainly need the "putting the
      shoulder up against the wheel" gesture!)

      2) Most of the references to the word "love" were from "Philosophy of Freedom"

      3) The link for the lecture is:
      http://www.elib.com/cgi-bin/print_hit_bold.pl/Steiner/Lectures/Dates/1
      9121217.phtml?love#first_hit

      namaste,

      Sarah

      PS
      At 1:04 PM -0800 12/31/00, Jeff Auen wrote:
      >By the Way, Pietro condition of silence and his being cast out by
      >his "brothers" was an interesting side note of karmic relations.


      Did I mention that he found his first Steiner book the same week (or
      close to it) that the growth became such that he could no longer
      speak?!
    • starmann77@aol.com
      *******I m surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online here: the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and again in
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
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        *******I'm surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online here:
        the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and
        again in Lecture 6 about the "I AM". So many people interested in the Spirit
        but alienated from our dead Christian churches wind up reading Eastern stuff
        that says over and over that the Self is bad, it's an evil illusion you must
        get rid of and yadda yadda yadda, that I'm surprised no one responded with
        any comments about the enormous difference of Steiner's take on things,
        namely that the Ego is the immortal spirit in Man and the force that raises
        us up ever higher, transforming the astral, etheric and physical bodies into
        Manas, Budhi and Atman. Wasn't anyone surprised?

        Second, about love. I wonder if anyone noticed the little passage that
        struck me in Lecture 3 where he was talking about the Earth becoming a Cosmos
        of Love (at the bottom of the 6th page of the lecture in my book): "What then
        is essential for love? What is essential in order that one person love
        another? It is this---that he be in possession of his full
        self-consciousness, that he be wholly independent. No one can love another in
        the full sense of the word if this love be not a free gift of one person to
        another. My hand does not love my organism. Only one who is independent, one
        who is not bound to the other person, can love him. To this end the human
        being had to become an ego-being." It's identical to the sentiments I once
        heard expressed by Ayn Rand: In order to say I love you, you must first learn
        to say the "I" part. Anything else is not love but "co-dependency" as we call
        it now--- two weak people hanging together and reinforcing each others'
        negative traits, because the subconscious must rule such relationships. Only
        two fully self-conscious people can truly know love, he's saying. Then it
        seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE able to
        be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will strengthen
        & support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it down. There's
        how to recognize the real thing, then.

        Dr. Starman
      • Jeff Auen
        Sarah, Let me get personal. This example, I am sure has been experienced by many others. In my early explorations and search for spiritual experience, I
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
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          Sarah,

          Let me get personal. This example, I am sure has been experienced by many others. In my early explorations and search for spiritual experience, I studied with and visited many teachers, primarily from the East and India. Two friends and I encountered one such teacher who spoke of nothing but love and associated himself exclusively with the mystic heart path. We were drawn to this path as a counterpoint to our dry and sterile education at UW Madison. Eventually it lead me to India at 19. While there, we had many life changing experiences and gained a certainty about many spiritual and metaphysical claims spoken of in the "literature" of mysticism. When
          there, many of the visitors (from America) had experiences of profound love beyond anything we have had since. This state of love/ energy permeated every part of us. It was within us and could be felt and experienced with everyone else and even into stones. We were filled with it and it changed every thought, feeling and action we had. One could not speak or think harmfully of others; we did not have to eat much; and this feeling was shared equally with others. When back in the states and in school, the intensity gradually wore away and eventually it subsided totally. It was a gift from another Being but the embers were not strong enough to sustain it
          over time. For those who have had this experience, a clear distinction is known between any human state of love and divine love which penetrates every particle of creation. This is the sort of love I was referring to though not so dramatic and life changing. This love is transforming in the way St. Paul spoke of it in the Epistles. This, in even its simplest form, cannot be generated or expanded like other capacities we have.

          Sarah Cherry wrote:

          > Jeff wrote:
          >
          > Quite simply, unless I am very unique from others, I cannot just turn the feeling of love on and direct it as a true feeling force to others.Compassion, sensitivity to others etc. is not the same feeling state as love. Sometimes "it" is there and flows forth and sometimes nothing I can do can rekindle this flow. Sometimes, we experience this with our mates or family and friends but I am also speaking of it also in the board sense towards others and nature. In thinking and willing, we can generate it by concentration, application intelligence, "putting our shoulder up against the wheel and pushing" but generating true love is not so direct or possible.
          >
        • Morgan Vierheller
          ... There is a person (of a group of 40-50) that I dance with (Universal Worship/Sufi) that have affected me this way when we dance. Although he leads the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
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            Jeff Auen wrote:

            ...Two friends and I  encountered one such teacher who spoke of nothing but love and associated himself exclusively with the mystic heart path. ... many of the visitors (from America) had experiences of profound love beyond anything we have had since. This state of  love/ energy permeated every part of us. It was within us and could be felt and experienced with everyone else and even into stones. We were filled with it and it changed every  thought, feeling and action we had. One could not speak  or think  harmfully of others; we did not have to eat much;  and this feeling was shared equally with others.
            There is a person (of a group of 40-50) that I dance with (Universal Worship/Sufi) that have affected me this way when we dance.  Although he leads the dance with his music and does not come out into the circle his warmth and love for the form radiates from him so brightly that there is a flood of love and warmth.
            I am also dismayed that the bustle and noise tends to drown out the feeling after a few days but I am happy to feel it for the time that it occurs.

            Thank you for the wonderful story!

            Morgan

             
            . For those who have had this experience, a clear distinction is known between any human state of love and divine love which penetrates every particle of creation. This is the sort of love I was referring to though not so dramatic and life changing. This love is transforming in the way St. Paul spoke of it in the Epistles. This, in even its simplest form, cannot be generated or expanded like other capacities we have.
             

          • Morgan Vierheller
            ... This is a good point you have here. I had the privilege of discussing this with my 11th grade class where we compared Siddhartha with Ayn Rand s Anthem.
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 1, 2001
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              starmann77@... wrote:

              *******I'm surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online here: the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and again in Lecture 6 about the "I AM". So many people interested in the Spirit but alienated from our dead Christian churches wind up reading Eastern stuff that says over and over that the Self is bad, ....
              This is a good point you have here.  I had the privilege of discussing this with my 11th grade class where we compared Siddhartha with Ayn Rand's Anthem.  After the journey  with Siddhartha and his path to Atman and then experiencing the lack of "I-dentification" :) in Anthem and Equality's discovery of the forbidden word (I) we had a great conversation regarding the nature and expression of the ego.  We looked at inventors and what drove them and how they followed a compulsion that flowed through them out into the world.  They came up with some great questions.
              Anthem is not Rand's best work but its message is clear.
               
                   Second, about love. I wonder if anyone noticed the little passage that
              struck me in Lecture 3 where he was talking about the Earth becoming a Cosmos of Love (at the bottom of the 6th page of the lecture in my book):
              I see that I was not thorough enough in my synopsis.  The whole purpose of this evolution is the perfection, generation and permeation of Love.
               

              Love and self-immolation are not compatible:

              Then it seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE able to be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will strengthen & support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it down. There's how to recognize the real thing, then.
              Amen:)

              Morgan

            • Sarah Cherry
              [My e-mail was down last night, and from the posts this morning, I see my comments plagiarize Morgan a bit :-). I, too, have been disappointed that we haven t
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 2, 2001
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                [My e-mail was down last night, and from the posts this morning, I
                see my comments plagiarize Morgan a bit :-). I, too, have been
                disappointed that we haven't had more discussion. I hope the
                discussion will continue well into the new year and specifically so
                we can know one another more deeply. I have also felt pressed to
                "keep up" with the reading and not had so much time to comment, but I
                feel reading in unison, so to speak, was beneficial.]

                At 11:41 AM -0500 1/1/01, starmann77@... wrote:
                <snip>
                >that the Ego is the immortal spirit in Man and the force that raises
                >us up ever higher, transforming the astral, etheric and physical bodies into
                >Manas, Budhi and Atman. Wasn't anyone surprised?

                To tell you the truth, I have become so accustomed to this concept in
                Steiner's work, that I am immune to being in awe by this
                revaluation. (so much for child-like wonder, huh? :-) However, I am
                in awe of the way he described the relationship of man's development
                to our understanding of architecture. "In a Gothic church you can see
                that what is expressed in its form cannot possible be thought of or
                felt without the presence of the devotional congregation.<snip> If
                the devotional congregation were not within, and the hands were not
                placed together in the form of the arch, the whole would be
                incomplete." What a picture of ego-beings as co-creators!

                <long snip>

                >Then it
                >seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE able to
                >be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will strengthen
                >& support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it down. There's
                >how to recognize the real thing, then.

                From my southern protestant childhood.... Ahmen!


                Along that line, one of my favorite quotes;

                "It is more noble to give yourself completely to one individual than
                to labor diligently for the salvation of the masses." Dag
                Hammarskjold

                Without a strong "I", there's nothing to give, and you won't have a
                clue as to what Hammarskjold is talking about!

                Sarah
              • starmann77@aol.com
                ... again ... that ... mrgnsms@earthlink.net writes: This is a good point you have here. I had the privilege of discussing this with my 11th grade class where
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 2, 2001
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                  > *******I'm surprised at two things in our 12 Nights study group online
                  here:
                  > the first is that no one commented on what Steiner said in Lecture 3 and
                  again
                  > in Lecture 6 about the "I AM". So many people interested in the Spirit but
                  > alienated from our dead Christian churches wind up reading Eastern stuff
                  that
                  > says over and over that the Self is bad....
                  mrgnsms@... writes:
                  This is a good point you have here. I had the privilege of discussing this
                  with
                  my 11th grade class where we compared Siddhartha with Ayn Rand's Anthem.
                  After
                  the journey with Siddhartha and his path to Atman and then experiencing the
                  lack of "I-dentification" :) in Anthem and Equality's discovery of the
                  forbidden
                  word (I) we had a great conversation regarding the nature and expression of
                  the
                  ego. We looked at inventors and what drove them and how they followed a
                  compulsion that flowed through them out into the world. They came up with
                  some
                  great questions.
                  Anthem is not Rand's best work but its message is clear.
                  >>

                  *******Yes, and I have always embraced both Objectivism and Libertarianism as
                  well as Anthroposophy---and have been amazed at how many anthroposophists
                  support socialism and anti-individualist philosophies, without seeing the
                  contradictions. Good for you, using Anthem with young minds.

                  >>Love and self-immolation are not compatible:

                  > Then it seems to me that a mark of real love is that each will be made MORE
                  > able to be their independent Self in the relationship, not less: each will
                  > strengthen & support the other's individuality, not weaken it or tear it
                  down.
                  > There's how to recognize the real thing, then.

                  Amen:)

                  Morgan
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