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RE: [steiner] Guilt

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  • Durward Starman
    ******* The reference was to the great change from the time of the Golden Age Greek dramatist Aeschylus, the first to make plays which werre a profane version
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 5 8:46 AM
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      ******* The reference was to the great change from the time of the Golden
      Age Greek dramatist Aeschylus, the first to make plays which werre a profane
      version of the rites enacted in the Mysteries, to the" Silver Age" one
      Sophocles, and then the much lesser 'Bronze Age' Euripdes---- by whose time
      all the spiritual which still poured into Aeshylus' work had disappeared,
      and it was only the human intellect, clever though he was, treating the same
      traditional stories. In Aeshylus' time, a man who harmed his blood-relations
      was pictured as pursued by the Furies, spirit-beings shown on the stage:
      only a generation or so later, Euripides had to stage the same plays showing
      a character like Medea tormented instead by her own mind, her conscience.
      Steiner said therefore that this time was the historical origin of
      conscience.

      But just as the Ego is a two-edged sword, giving us both the possibility
      of Love as well as Evil, so conscience can be perverted into a tormenting
      wave of guilt beyond all reason---- one, moreover, used by religious
      power-structures to make people believe they need the church hierarchy to be
      saved from their "sinfulness", as Wilhelm Reich and others pointed out. Some
      of the New Age philosophy is (quite rightly) reacting to this perversion of
      Christianity, the demonization of our reproductive desires for instance,
      which is nowhere in Jesus' teaching (or in Steiner's, for that matter)-----
      best exemplified by the hair-shirted monks in "Monty Python and the Holy
      Grail"wacking themselves over the head with boards in the name of "God."
      Instead, what has evolved in the modern West is what William James called a
      "Religion of Healthy-Mindedness", where what is deemed healthy is
      pragmatically seen as good.

      As for the opposite extreme, the evasion of the slightest twinge of
      conscience in order to avoid all guilt resulting therefrom----- yes, it's
      there in lots of New Age stuff (as in secular humanism, socialism and
      communism, for that matter); but even that is the perception of a dangerous
      truth, that the initiate can kill and incur no karma. There is no action
      which is wrong in itself; it's rather as the Edgar Cayce Readings put it,
      that what an individual is "judged" by after death is "what we have done
      about the ideals we have set." So morality is in a true sense "relative"
      ---- but this is a dangerous truth which initiates withold from the masses
      who must hold to absolute morality until ready to graduate beyond it as free
      spirits. And all too many think they're ready to graduate to that who
      clearly are not, as can be seen in their acting like Aleister Crowley
      instead of Rudolf Steiner.
      "The philosopher is one who would act the same if there were no laws."

      -starman

      www.DrStarman.com


      >
      >Dear Mathew and All,
      >
      >Guilt is indeed a sign of human conscience. Steiner writes to the effect
      >that there was a very specific point in history when conscience replaced
      >what was known in older times, such as the old Roman days, as The Furies.
      >Unless I'm greatly mistaken, human conscience is exemplified by Eurypides
      >in his "Oedepus".
      >
      >Blessings,
      >
      >My2Cents
      >
      > --- On Mon 07/03, Mathew Morrell < tma4cbt@... > wrote:
      >Subject: [steiner] Guilt
      >
      > Let me make a brief case in favor of guilt, by first stating
      >that
      >there are limitations to what guilt can provide therapeutically
      >speaking, and that obsessive guilt (or being guilt ridden) is
      >counterproductive in the emotional healing process. At some point
      >you must transcend guilt and, in modern vernacular, "forget about it"-
      >--as hard as that might be. As Nietzsche says, forgetting is
      >necessary for "all the nobler functions and functionaries´┐Ż"
      >
      >However guilt is unavoidable for most people, for it comes with
      >having a conscience. If you did not have a conscience you would not
      >feel guilt. You would be person who can commit sin without
      >suffering. For the rest of us, sin is suffering. Eventually we move
      >through the guilt stage through atonement, but not after we have
      >burned in its fires long enough for our soul to achieve an emotional
      >memory of the event. In this way, we evolve as individuals.
      >
      >The danger of the New Age---as it is preached in pop culture---is
      >that it negates the quality of guilt; and therefore negates the
      >feeling of pain due to wrong action. In fact, the primary aim of New
      >Age thought is to be guilt free, to be liberated from all universal
      >concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, to do whatever one wants
      >to do, whenever one wants to do it, without shame, guilt, fault,
      >guilt, remorse, or responsibility, in essence to live in the eternal
      >innocence of unreflective unconsciousness. Guilt is seen as
      >backward, as something that gets in the way of living life to the
      >fullest. Guilt is the opposite of what the New Age strives for: a
      >life lived in the moment, without the repercussions of Time.
    • sarah
      The Zoroastrians claim the Conscience first came from their teachings from the word Asha , which means universal moral Truth, which predates the Greeks by
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 5 7:25 PM
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        The Zoroastrians claim the Conscience first came from their teachings from the word "Asha", which means universal moral Truth, which predates the Greeks by many centuries. Zoroastrianism puts great value on the development of wisdom and insight co-creating with a God of pure compassion, over blind obedience to a wrathful God, making conscience the guide, not fear. In fact, Christianity, Greek philosophy and Judaism are all indebted to Zarathustra whose teachings spread when the Persians invaded Babylon in 539BC. Before their education in Babylon, the Jews were just henotheistic appeasement-based terrified pagans. (I've just done an assignment on this and thoroughly enjoyed it!)

        Most modern scholars date Zarathustra to 1000BC-1700BC. I think Steiner dates him to 6000BC(?). One thing for sure; he predated Euripides!

        Sarah
        Waldorf Doll Making DVD - NOW AVAILABLE!
        e-Patterns, Dolls and More;
        www.sarahs-dolls.com
      • Durward Starman
        ******* Steiner has quite a different take on history than the usual one. He sees it as an evolutiion of consciousness, where regular academic theory regards
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 7 10:05 AM
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          ******* Steiner has quite a different "take" on history than the usual one.
          He sees it as an evolutiion of consciousness, where regular academic theory
          regards our consciousness as pretty much the same all along---- people were
          the same us, only stupider, in the past, which is also their attitude to
          children today. There is, however, abundant evidence for the consciousness
          of ancient men being completely different than ours, once one's mind is
          opened to the possibility---- whereas closed-minded academics interpret the
          very things which should stand out as evidence in a way opposite to the
          truth because they just can't imagine things otherwise. For instance, the
          Egyptians' way of representing the human being with the torso turned
          sideways is dismissed as a mere stylism of depiction, not based on people
          then objectively perceiving differently; the same with no one being able to
          represent three dimensions before Leonardo, everything seen 2-dimensionally.

          But these ancient states of consciousness can be re-experienced and
          verified via the Akashic Records. According to these, Steiner states that
          there were a long line of "Zoroasters" stemming from the original great one
          about 6000 B.C.: it became a title, rather like High Lama, so that the
          historical Zoroaster or Zarathustra we know from about the 6th century B.C.
          was the last of a long line. Moreover, the "Gathas" or sacred scriptures of
          Zoroastrianism originated long before writing in the Farsi language and were
          passed down orally for a long time, like the earlier Sanskrit Vedas, only
          committed to writing sometime between 3000 B.C. and the Hellenic era-----
          and they were re-written or ordered by this very Zoroaster in the 6th-5th
          century B.C. Now, this was exactly the time of the first arising of
          conscience historically, and also the time when what we call the Old
          Testament was likewise compiled and put into the order IT still has. So, the
          scriptures were interpreted quite differently then, and a dimension added to
          them which the originals did not possess, as the consciousness of the
          priests had changed so much along the way. (An interesting study of this
          transformation of myth-pictures from earlier states of consciousness into a
          later literary one, which needs to be investigated in order to see how the
          later layers are superimposed upon the primary material, is "Hamlet's Mill"
          by Giorgio de Santillana---- which showed, among other things, that the
          ancients were aware of the precession of the equinoxes and Zodiac Ages long
          before its historical discovery by Hipparchus in the 3rd century B.C., and
          that the Danish legend of Hamlet that Shakespeare used, was originally a
          creation myth having to do with the overthrow of one god/king by another,
          like Zeus overthrowing Kronos or Saturn.)

          As we come down closer to our era, people naturally began to imagine
          that their ancestors had a similar consciousness to ours and they imposed
          meanings onto words and documents which they did not originally have.
          Compare, for example, the original words of the I Ching without the later
          commentary by Confucius, to how it stands combined with his much later layer
          of interpretations. Similarly, the Book of Job was only added to the
          canonical Hebrew scriptures (the Torah or 5 Books of Moses and the Haggadah
          or later writings & traditional tales) only in the final revision at the
          time of the return from the Captivity, although it's clearly from an older
          source (Edgar Cayce said in fact it was the OLDEST book of the Bible), with
          Man already in existence and yet Satan is still up in heaven, ahsn't fallen
          in the Garden yet. It, like Genesis, clearly came from a state of
          consciousness which the later writers could not re-enter. So I think the
          "back-dating" of conscience by students of Zoroastrianism in our time is an
          error. They are reading it in to documents from a time before its existence.
          The same thing is done when people assert that concepts of citizenship,
          justice etc. go back to Hammarabi's first Laws in Babylon, where actually a
          person was not conceived of as a 'citizen' until Rome, which Steiner also
          points out. As for that characterization of the Hebrews before contact with
          Persia, I think that's also erroneous. The Hebrews' agreement with their God
          was quite different than pagan religions contemporary with them: it was an
          experiemnt in eugenics, requiring purification and endogamy, to produce a
          body perfect enough for the Messiah to incarnate in. fortunately, they
          succeeded. Of course, people with no experience of the Christ easily have
          erroneous views of Judaism and of Christianity for that matter. (A great
          source for understanding both as well as Eduard Schure's The Great
          Initiates, and for the Aryan Zoroastrian 'fire religion' his later book From
          Sphinx To Christ: An Occult History, inspired by Steiner.)

          For a comparison of how radical Steiner's view of history is to our
          modern dogmas, consider his saying that the mathematical mind only
          originated with Abraham, that when God speaks to him saying "your
          descendents will be numbered as the sands of the shore or the stars in the
          sky", it's symbolic of the counting mind coming into existence for the first
          time. Anyone can immediately raise objections to such an idea, pointing out
          evidences of "counting" before this, etc. The difference is in what man was
          able to do FOR HIMSELF versus what the gods did IN Man. For instance, alll
          mathematical terms are of Greek origin. The Greeks of the 7th through 5th
          centuries B.C. discovered the ratio of the radius of a circle to its
          circumference and named it after a Greek letter, Pi. Historically we know no
          ordinary people before them knew of it: treatises for building are only
          empirical, based on using lengths of cord rather than pure ideas, with no
          abstract mathematical thinking shown. And yet if you take the height of the
          Great Pyramid and construct a circle on it, its area is equal to the square
          base of the pyramid. So the value of Pi is built into it. The modern man
          must conclude the Egyptians knew of Pi. But it was the initiates who built
          the Pyramid, in a time when a divine being could enter an initiate and think
          IN him, and he would direct the others. So you have the startling situation
          where ancient people could use principles yet not think principles. In the
          same way, what was done by initiates was not typical of the people of an age
          because their evolution had been accelerated far beyond their time.

          This is why the statements of Dr. Steiner are easily ridiculed by
          academia, like that logic originated with Aristotle: it's easy to come up
          with apparent contradictions, and difficult to accept at first because we've
          all been taught the exact opposite in our Ahrimanic public schools, where
          consciousness is as it is now when you're awake and always has been the same
          as we've experienced it as waking adults from Rome to our time. Almost no
          one outside of anthroposophy imagines anything any differently, although
          history as an evolution of consciousness used to be described by many great
          philosophers up to only a century or two ago, many of whom Steiner quoted,
          like Hegel.

          Starman

          www.DrStarman.com





          >From: "sarah" <sarahwh@...>
          >
          >The Zoroastrians claim the Conscience first came from their teachings from
          >the word "Asha", which means universal moral Truth, which predates the
          >Greeks by many centuries. Zoroastrianism puts great value on the
          >development of wisdom and insight co-creating with a God of pure
          >compassion, over blind obedience to a wrathful God, making conscience the
          >guide, not fear. In fact, Christianity, Greek philosophy and Judaism are
          >all indebted to Zarathustra whose teachings spread when the Persians
          >invaded Babylon in 539BC. Before their education in Babylon, the Jews were
          >just henotheistic appeasement-based terrified pagans. (I've just done an
          >assignment on this and thoroughly enjoyed it!)
          >Most modern scholars date Zarathustra to 1000BC-1700BC. I think Steiner
          >dates him to 6000BC(?). One thing for sure; he predated Euripides!
          >
          >Sarah
          >Waldorf Doll Making DVD - NOW AVAILABLE!
          >e-Patterns, Dolls and More;
          >www.sarahs-dolls.com
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