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Online anthroposophical discussions

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  • ignorantspirit
    I think that people s egos spoil many of the online discussions related to Anthroposophy. I m not referring to a recent posting on this list or to any
    Message 1 of 8 , May 29, 2006
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      I think that people's egos spoil many of the online discussions
      related to Anthroposophy. I'm not referring to a recent posting on
      this list or to any particular person on this list, but rather to
      what I've noticed on various lists related to the subject over the
      years.

      Many people on these lists like to come across as having all the
      answers instead of searching for answers.

      Since Anthroposophy is all about learning to see into the spirit
      world, it must be difficult for someone who has been involved with
      Anthroposophy for many years to admit that he/she is still unable to
      see into the spirit world. I guess the more someone has positioned
      himself/herself in society as an expert on spiritual matters, the
      more embarrassing it would be to admit that he/she is not yet
      psychic or limited in this ability.

      This causes people to write messages that sort of give the
      impression that they received the knowledge psychically without
      actually saying so. They make statements without quoting sources or
      without making it clear that the statements are their own
      hypotheses, thus giving the impression that the statements are
      eternal truths that come straight from the spirit world and are
      beyond dispute.

      That's a pity, because it makes debate difficult. If you quote a
      source, then others can refer back to the source to see if it has
      been correctly understood. If you make a hypothesis and give the
      reasons why you speculate it to be true, then others can test the
      argument and suggest alternative hypotheses. But, if you give the
      impression that you've seen the truth in the spirit world directly,
      then people who cannot see into the spirit world cannot participate
      in the discussion. This causes many of the postings to these lists
      to be monologues.

      People who notice this behavior in themselves should rather
      subscribe anonymously to these lists. Then you can leave your ego at
      the door and become like a child on the list - a child who has more
      questions than answers. Questions stimulate discussions, answers
      block discussions. I would like to see more posts with "I wonder how
      this works", or "I wonder why this works the way it does" or "I
      wonder if this statement is true".
    • Sue
      I wonder where you came from ! :-) ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail The new Interface is stunning in its
      Message 2 of 8 , May 30, 2006
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        I wonder where you came from ! :-)





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      • trisha lambert
        This discussion is interesting, I find that I am the same online as in person- more likely to listen and take it all in. I appreciate the work others put int
        Message 3 of 8 , May 30, 2006
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          This discussion is interesting, I find that I am the
          same online as in person- more likely to listen and
          take it all in. I appreciate the work others put int
          their comments, and get much out of the exchanges.
          trisha




          --- ignorantspirit <ignorantspirit@...> wrote:

          > I think that people's egos spoil many of the online
          > discussions
          > related to Anthroposophy. I'm not referring to a
          > recent posting on
          > this list or to any particular person on this list,
          > but rather to
          > what I've noticed on various lists related to the
          > subject over the
          > years.
          >
          > Many people on these lists like to come across as
          > having all the
          > answers instead of searching for answers.
          >
          > Since Anthroposophy is all about learning to see
          > into the spirit
          > world, it must be difficult for someone who has been
          > involved with
          > Anthroposophy for many years to admit that he/she is
          > still unable to
          > see into the spirit world. I guess the more someone
          > has positioned
          > himself/herself in society as an expert on spiritual
          > matters, the
          > more embarrassing it would be to admit that he/she
          > is not yet
          > psychic or limited in this ability.
          >
          > This causes people to write messages that sort of
          > give the
          > impression that they received the knowledge
          > psychically without
          > actually saying so. They make statements without
          > quoting sources or
          > without making it clear that the statements are
          > their own
          > hypotheses, thus giving the impression that the
          > statements are
          > eternal truths that come straight from the spirit
          > world and are
          > beyond dispute.
          >
          > That's a pity, because it makes debate difficult. If
          > you quote a
          > source, then others can refer back to the source to
          > see if it has
          > been correctly understood. If you make a hypothesis
          > and give the
          > reasons why you speculate it to be true, then others
          > can test the
          > argument and suggest alternative hypotheses. But, if
          > you give the
          > impression that you've seen the truth in the spirit
          > world directly,
          > then people who cannot see into the spirit world
          > cannot participate
          > in the discussion. This causes many of the postings
          > to these lists
          > to be monologues.
          >
          > People who notice this behavior in themselves should
          > rather
          > subscribe anonymously to these lists. Then you can
          > leave your ego at
          > the door and become like a child on the list - a
          > child who has more
          > questions than answers. Questions stimulate
          > discussions, answers
          > block discussions. I would like to see more posts
          > with "I wonder how
          > this works", or "I wonder why this works the way it
          > does" or "I
          > wonder if this statement is true".
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          trisha


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        • Sue
          ......To conceptualize the spiritual world as laid out by Rudolf Steiner, does not necessarily require a visit as such, across the Threshold. With all of the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 1 3:28 AM
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            ......To conceptualize the spiritual world as laid out by Rudolf
            Steiner, does not necessarily require a 'visit' as such, across the
            Threshold. With all of the information/indications outlined by Steiner,
            we have a creative/imaginative process which leads us to an awareness
            of this 'unseen world', eg. we don't 'see' Christ, but the
            manifestations of His works. If we are looking for Christ in the
            clouds, we are still thinking materially.

            As it turns out, we do visit the spiritual world every night during
            sleep - a little pralaya for the physical body. I don't need to 'see'
            this world to know it exists and I HAVE to trust that on falling
            asleep, I will wake up again. This is trusting - without the security
            of existence. We have no choice here ( like death) unless we
            artificially interfere in some way or have an illness, we must succumb
            to sleep. We know that something happens during this sleep that will
            sustain us until the next pralaya. Each night we die to the physical
            world only to be reborn anew in the morning. We trust that we WILL wake
            up. This experience is known to every human being. The body lies as if
            dead, while our Ego and Astral Body weave among the vast expanse of
            spiritual beings, according to Rudolf Steiner. One only has to want to
            know more about it and you will find there is so much to read. So the
            body divides itself at sleep - the Spirit/Ego Body - the Being which
            makes us Human -Thinking - and the Astral or Feeling Body, both leave
            our Physical/Etheric/ Life Body to itself and trusting in other unseen
            Beings (Angels) to keep us breathing and alive.

            This also happens during meditation .. the Thinking flies off and
            'forgets' itself ... the Feeling connects to it's memory prior to birth
            ie. the spiritual world and rests. The Will is much more uncontrollable
            , wanting to connect the three back as a united Being .. to plant the
            feet back firmly on the ground. To hold you back. This is my own
            experience. I can't speak of seeing the unseen world as Rudolf Steiner
            did, but I CAN see the deeds of this unseen (spiritual) world. "... and
            they shall be known by their deeds" I can see the Threshold. I see it
            living in humanity as it reaches the precipice. What else IS the
            Threshold, if it's not the meeting of "the 3 Beasts" in Man? FEAR,
            DOUBT and HATE! All of us stand at the Threshold, meeting the Guardian,
            who demands of the Self to choose. But we DOUBT! and we FEAR and we
            HATE. It is only Man who can redeem them! It is only we who can Love.

            Rudolf Steiner has lovingly given us such a wide eyed glimpse of the
            spiritual world in mostly all of his writings and lectures, that we are
            able to first conceptualize (our safety net so to speak) through our
            own understanding and then to trust in that whatever comes to meet us
            from out of the future, is not soul destroying, or worse .. Spirit
            destroying, because we know enough to be able to trust ... without our
            security in existence. Three moral steps forward - one step closer to
            Spiritland.

            .... Sue.

            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
          • Durward Starman
            ******* I d wanted to respond to this even though it s taken me awhile to do so, because it s a big problem I ve run into often. As some of you know, I was
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 20 9:22 AM
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              ******* I'd wanted to respond to this even though it's taken me awhile to do
              so, because it's a big problem I've run into often. As some of you know, I
              was born with psychic ability, and took up the Edgar Cayce readings and
              anthroposophy to train it, and I ran into just what you described ----for
              instance, when old teachers at the Waldorf Institute where I got my training
              would talk about the things in Steiner's books, but didn't want to admit
              they had no psychic ability themselves. I had direct knowledge, but often
              had to avoid embarassing the teacher in the classroom, especially when they
              were merely speculating and got 'way off from the truth.

              But more than that, it's not really true for people to think they 'have
              no psychic ability'. As some of the older generation of anthroposophists
              knew from following the philosophic path of intensifying thinking (for
              instance through using the Philosophy of Freedom), "ordinary" thinking
              itself --- I mean pure thinking, as in mathematics, geometry, etc. --- is
              actually a psychic experience---- as is also the absolute realization of
              oneself as an "I am". What was most sad was when some of those who had never
              made a breakthrough to psychic experience were in that rut because they
              never reached the point of experiencing their thinking itself in this new
              way. They had psychic experiences but were unwilling or unable to recognize
              them as such, and so could go no further. One fellow taught the class in the
              Philosophy of Freedom while never having gotten the resut it can give!

              See, we must reject dualism, the idea that etheric forces, astral
              phenomena, etc., are things "other than" what we are experiencing, because
              we actually ARE experiencing them all the time, just normally under a veil,
              so to speak. A "habit", for instance, is an etheric force-form, an
              "emotion" is an astral movement. The astral body presses in more to the
              physical when we cry, expands out of it more when we laugh. What is
              important is to experience these as pure ideas at first while reading
              Theosophy or Occult Science, because we need to lift ourselves up into pure
              thinking, which is what we use the spirit to do --- and then look "down"
              from that standpoint. That's why we study the books as a tool of initiation.
              But then, not being able to connect one's thought-pictures to the rest of
              the reality we experience is the result of a lack of confidence in thinking,
              as Steiner pointed out so often. It's essential.

              As for the folks online who pretend to be psychic ---- well, that's why
              I keep this list going, so there's a place where people can study spiritual
              science without distortions of it. The false egotists can have their
              soapboxes, but that is no help at all to a Waldorf teacher, a bio-dynamic
              farmer, an "astrosopher" like myself, or any other "worker in the vineyard"
              who is seeking to walk this path, and for whom this medium could be so much.

              -starman

              www.DrStarman.com



              >--- ignorantspirit <ignorantspirit@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I think that people's egos spoil many of the online
              > > discussions related to Anthroposophy. I'm not referring to a
              > > recent posting on this list or to any particular person on this list,
              > > but rather to what I've noticed on various lists related to the
              > > subject over the years.
              > >
              > > Many people on these lists like to come across as
              > > having all the answers instead of searching for answers.
              > >
              > > Since Anthroposophy is all about learning to see
              > > into the spirit world, it must be difficult for someone who has been
              > > involved with Anthroposophy for many years to admit that he/she is
              > > still unable to see into the spirit world. I guess the more someone
              > > has positioned himself/herself in society as an expert on spiritual
              > > matters, the more embarrassing it would be to admit that he/she
              > > is not yet psychic or limited in this ability.
              > >
              > > This causes people to write messages that sort of
              > > give the impression that they received the knowledge
              > > psychically without actually saying so. They make statements without
              > > quoting sources or without making it clear that the statements are
              > > their own hypotheses, thus giving the impression that the
              > > statements are eternal truths that come straight from the spirit
              > > world and are beyond dispute.
              > >
              > > That's a pity, because it makes debate difficult. If
              > > you quote a source, then others can refer back to the source to
              > > see if it has been correctly understood. If you make a hypothesis
              > > and give the reasons why you speculate it to be true, then others
              > > can test the argument and suggest alternative hypotheses. But, if
              > > you give the impression that you've seen the truth in the spirit
              > > world directly, then people who cannot see into the spirit world
              > > cannot participate in the discussion. This causes many of the postings
              > > to these lists to be monologues.
            • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
              In a message dated 6/20/2006 11:25:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time, DrStarman@hotmail.com writes: I d wanted to respond to this even though it s taken me awhile
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 20 1:19 PM
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                In a message dated 6/20/2006 11:25:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time, DrStarman@... writes:
                I'd wanted to respond to this even though it's taken me awhile to do
                so, because it's a big problem I've run into often. As some of you know,  I
                was born with psychic ability, and took up the Edgar Cayce readings and
                anthroposophy to train it, and I ran into just what you described ----for
                instance, when old teachers at the Waldorf Institute where I got my training
                would talk about the things in Steiner's books, but didn't want to admit
                they had no psychic ability themselves.
                I have had the experience over and over again by teachers in anthroposophy that my psychic experiences cannot be real or true.  I have sat in "Philosophy of Freedom", "Theosophy", "Occult Science, "Knowledge of Higher Worlds" book studies and on several occasions with the teacher directly looking me in the eye telling me they are delusions.  Now, how in the world did this get skewed so badly?  I already know why but come on people?  I have talked with many people who love anthroposophy but cannot tolerate its followers.  Hmmm, sounds familiar .  I believe certain anthroposophists strive and strive and do the exercises and they get caught in their own downfalls and then accuse the "seers" as being frauds.  Oh, the joys of 3-D.  ~Chantel -wandering anthroposophist 
              • My2Cents
                I have always had these experiences but learned as a small child not to speak of them. I think it frightened my mother, who had just lost my father from
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 22 7:24 AM
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                  I have always had these experiences but learned as a small child not to speak of them. I think it frightened my mother, who had just lost my father from drowning. An example: At age 19 I was planning a visit to my mother, perhaps 200 miles south of my residence and received a joyful letter from her. In among her usual cheerful comments were her light hearted words "I'll be so glad to see you - there's something I have to tell you!" Immediately I saw in my mind's eye she had breast cancer and would not live long. So it was. Years later my daughter rode a neighbor's horse just out of sight on our dirt road, and I immediately saw her in my mind's eye lying off to the side, badly injured. My in-laws were visiting from back East and stood shocked with disbelief as I immediately drove off after my daughter in my car, telling them I was taking her to the hospital ER. So it was. There are other examples, but these will serve.
                  I also had encountered Edgar Cayce's writings, but it was Steiner I immediately absorbed at age 29.

                  Sincerely,

                  My2Cents


                  --- On Tue 06/20, < Cheeseandsalsa@... > wrote:
                  From: [mailto: Cheeseandsalsa@...]
                  To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:19:12 EDT
                  Subject: Re: [steiner] Online anthroposophical discussions

                  In a message dated 6/20/2006 11:25:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
                  DrStarman@... writes:
                  I'd
                  wanted to respond to this even though it's taken me awhile to do so,
                  because it's a big problem I've run into often. As some of you know, I
                  was born with psychic ability, and took up the Edgar Cayce readings and
                  anthroposophy to train it, and I ran into just what you described ----for
                  instance, when old teachers at the Waldorf Institute where I got my
                  training would talk about the things in Steiner's books, but didn't want
                  to admit they had no psychic ability themselves.

                  I have had the experience over and over again by teachers in anthroposophy
                  that my psychic experiences cannot be real or true. I have sat
                  in "Philosophy of Freedom", "Theosophy", "Occult Science, "Knowledge of
                  Higher Worlds" book studies and on several occasions with the teacher
                  directly looking me in the eye telling me they are delusions. Now, how in
                  the world did this get skewed so badly? I already know why but come on
                  people? I have talked with many people who love anthroposophy but cannot
                  tolerate its followers. Hmmm, sounds familiar . I believe certain
                  anthroposophists strive and strive and do the exercises and they get caught in
                  their own downfalls and then accuse the "seers" as being frauds. Oh,
                  the joys of 3-D. ~Chantel -wandering anthroposophist



















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                • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                  Your Saturn return, that is when I discovered Steiner.... Quite a few women I know discover Steiner at that age might have to do more with childhood info
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 22 7:33 PM
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                    Your Saturn return, that is when I discovered Steiner....  Quite a few women I know discover Steiner at that age might have to do more with childhood info regarding waldorf though.  Not sure because after 29 you are entering those precious Christ years.  I've studied Cayce as well and have not been drawn to that however.  Steiner is among much other stuff always integrating.  That is my two cents in a hurry. 
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