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Science and Religion

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  • Durward Starman
    Dear Friends, As I am a minister, I thought perhaps I would start doing a sermon of sorts every Sunday, a message that might serve to stimulate discussion on
    Message 1 of 5 , May 28 11:03 AM
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      Dear Friends,

      As I am a minister, I thought perhaps I would start doing a "sermon" of
      sorts every Sunday, a message that might serve to stimulate discussion on
      this quiet list. A good starting-point might be Science and Rligion.

      Religion, whatever its original meaning, has come to be for most people a
      blind, irrational belief in things that a person does not really know about.
      Here in Virginia Beach, we have Pat Robertson, a man whose motivations may
      be quite "Christian" but who is a sterling example of irrationality and an
      embarassment to reflective believers of any religion. The recent success of
      the book and film The Da Vinci Code, even though based on a hoax and filled
      with historical falsehoods, shows how many people view the religion they
      were raised in with suspicion and are ready to believe the worst of its
      leaders, how organized religion has become despised by many and does nothing
      for them.

      Yet when we turn to dry science for a basis for life, we find there's no
      "there" there. The most important questions of life--- Who am I? Why am I
      here? Where did I come from, and where am I going? --- are officially
      declared outside the scope of "scientific" inquiry, while unofficially
      you'll be told, "on the side" as it were, "Well, those questions are
      meaningless BECAUSE your self-awareness is just an illusion, you have no
      'Self', you're just a slightly more clever animal, a form of life that arose
      on some spinning rocks by accident and will be obliterated at death. It's
      all chaos and chance."

      The very first book about Steiner that I ever read, A Scientist of the
      Invisible by Canon A. P. Shepherd, written in England in 1954, was very
      eloquent about these two systems, science and religion; and a more recent
      Harvard project of comparing Freud and C.S. Lewis, examines the same
      pressing issues that must come up again and again when a man ponders his
      nature and origin.

      But that comparison, recently made into a book and a PBS television
      special, accepts this dichotomy without question: we either must be
      pessimistic atheists like Freud or else go back to the religion of our
      ancestors as C.S. Lewis did. But neither choice is healthy for modern-day
      man--- and I think we on this list are here because neither satisfies us.

      I doubt there are many people here who are members of what one wit once
      called "check-your-brains-at-the-door" churches; or if you go to one, you
      don't do so whole-heartedly. But neither does the rigid dogma of science
      with its Darwinian, aggressive atheism satisfy us.

      What we seek is a scientific attitude that refuses to become dogmatic
      like the churches it criticizes, but rather approaches all the mysteries of
      life without prior limitations on thinking, seeking ever to expand our
      understanding of Self and World. This is Spirit Science, as Rudolf Steiner
      inaugurated it.

      The "scientific" dogma that Man has limits on his thinking, we regard as
      a mere statement about Man as he is before he seeks to develop undeveloped
      powers within him.

      The limits placed on us by religions, that we can only believe but not
      know, are likewise merely statements referring to the exoteric side of
      religion only, surpassed once we begin to walk the spiritual path which was
      and is the esoteric heart of all religions.

      Meditation is the center of the Path we have been shown, the root of
      anthroposophy. The knowledge derived from reading the Akashic Records, the
      perception of the higher principles of Man, the application of this higher
      knowledge in medicine, education, nutrition, agriculture and the arts ---
      all these are its fruits.

      This movement is the most important one on earth, and all our contatct
      with it in whatever realm should renew our lives and spirits, proving its
      worth again and again as the bridge between unbelieving knowledge and
      unknowing faith that Man must find in our times.

      "Dr. Starman"

      www.DrStarman.com
    • Sue
      To All, The fact that everyone IS so quiet in this group, is a discussion in itself. Apart from M. Morrell s fictional ramblings, it s as if everyone is
      Message 2 of 5 , May 28 9:24 PM
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        To All,

        The fact that everyone IS so quiet in this group, is a discussion in
        itself. Apart from M. Morrell's fictional ramblings, it's as if
        everyone is paralysed. I try to put myself in their shoes and ask
        myself why people feel that they want to be a memeber of this group and
        yet don't partake. Is it because they want to be on the periphery and
        merely watch? (for what?), or is it that they feel they have nothing to
        contribute? Or is it because they are afraid of saying something which
        might be in error?

        It is my experience, that the human being cannot perpetually take
        without giving something back. There is no-one in this group, including
        myself, who 'knows" everything. In fact I believe that those who feel
        they 'know' everything are mistaken. The concept of a group, must
        surely be the hope of honest discussion - a to-ing and fro-ing of
        ideas, hopefully in a Goethean way - and since this IS a Steiner group,
        one must presume that people either know something about Spiritual
        Scince or want to know.

        I am going to put my head on the chopping block and open myself up for
        criticism and judgment!

        I don't know how many peole here are anthropops, or even if they
        understand Anthroposophy, but there must be a curiosity. It's tru that
        through meditation, the Silence speaks, however the Silence can't be
        heard by those who have not prepared themselves to HEAR!



        ___________________________________________________________
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      • Sue
        To All, The fact that everyone IS so quiet in this group, is a discussion in itself. Apart from M. Morrell s fictional ramblings, it s as if everyone is
        Message 3 of 5 , May 28 9:25 PM
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          To All,

          The fact that everyone IS so quiet in this group, is a discussion in
          itself. Apart from M. Morrell's fictional ramblings, it's as if
          everyone is paralysed. I try to put myself in their shoes and ask
          myself why people feel that they want to be a memeber of this group and
          yet don't partake. Is it because they want to be on the periphery and
          merely watch? (for what?), or is it that they feel they have nothing to
          contribute? Or is it because they are afraid of saying something which
          might be in error?

          It is my experience, that the human being cannot perpetually take
          without giving something back. There is no-one in this group, including
          myself, who 'knows" everything. In fact I believe that those who feel
          they 'know' everything are mistaken. The concept of a group, must
          surely be the hope of honest discussion - a to-ing and fro-ing of
          ideas, hopefully in a Goethean way - and since this IS a Steiner group,
          one must presume that people either know something about Spiritual
          Scince or want to know.

          I am going to put my head on the chopping block and open myself up for
          criticism and judgment!

          I don't know how many peole here are anthropops, or even if they
          understand Anthroposophy, but there must be a curiosity. It's tru that
          through meditation, the Silence speaks, however the Silence can't be
          heard by those who have not prepared themselves to HEAR!





          ___________________________________________________________
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        • Sue
          continued; I see Spiritual Science as a religion because it is THE GREAT RELIGION for ALL of humanity. In the School of Michael, one confronts his own humanity
          Message 4 of 5 , May 28 10:18 PM
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            continued;

            I see Spiritual Science as a religion because it is THE GREAT RELIGION
            for ALL of humanity. In the School of Michael, one confronts his own
            humanity AND the Guardian that leads to the spiritual world. Spiritual
            Science gives us the tools to take the vertical path upwards but we
            must never forget the horizontal ie. the community of man in which we
            live. If we ascend without Spiritual Science, we are caught in a
            phantom world of Imagination and can go no further. With Spiritual
            Science, the journey has no limits. It is only limited by our own
            understanding and fear.

            We learn in the Michael School about the three beasts - mainfesting as
            fear, doubt and hate. These beasts are the first beings we encounter on
            this vertical path. They insist that we become accountable for our own
            Thinking, Feeling and Willing. Michael gives us the courage to
            overcome. We find the counter-forces/faces of these beings who are
            destined to take us in another direction ie. only the downward vertical
            path, or only the horizontal path, or only the upward vertical. It is
            the Cross itself which symbolises the three paths. It is the sign of
            the Rosicrucian, a symbol of dying and becoming. The details can be
            found in Steiner's writing on the Rosicrucian eg. "The Secret Stream".

            There is another yahoo group called 'spiritual science', of which I was
            a 'member' for a short while. Within this group, as in most groups,
            there was one person who constantly espoused his 'wisdom', which was so
            abstract, that his words had a deadening effect on the group. I found
            myself questioning the validity of the group's title as the philosophy
            seemed to be more gnostic than Anthroposophical (what I perceive as
            true Spiritual Science), but I was dismissed and intimidated ( perhaps
            a fear of some in this group), so I left. My choice... no worries! My
            point is this and one that Steiner himself makes with regard to the
            orthodox religions, including Gnosticism and that is, that the world is
            still worshipping the old Jehovah/ Father God. The God of the Old
            Testament. It's as if the Son never came, or that the Son leads us to
            the Father anyway so why bother with the Son? With Anthroposophy, the
            cornerstone of our understanding is the Christ. The Turning Point in
            Time - the Mystery of Golgotha. Not Jesus - but Christ! In the
            worshipping of the Father God, Islam and orthodox religions are the
            same. Anthroposophy is the most difficult path because it requires our
            own Thinking to sort out the confusion. We have to leave our prejudices
            at the door and re-think our stand. This path is not without effort,
            nor is it easy, but it surely leads us to the Truth. The truth of the
            Triad. We have been tricked into seeing only duality - black, white,
            good, evil etc. I f we only ever see the duality, we are compelled to
            be one-sided - either one or the other. This is a lie. In Anthroposophy
            we always insert the one in between, while the two become polar
            opposites ( Luciferic or Ahrimanic) Without Christ, we are one-sided.
            Here is true Christianity. The Middle Path. It never denies the two
            sides, but sets about to balance them. Without the duality we could
            never have the possibilty of meeting the Christ. We cannot deny them,
            but we can meet them and redeem them.

            The most wonderful thing about Anthroposophy, is that we are free to
            think for ourselves. To individualise our journey - at least until we
            reach the 'top' - there, the view is the same for all. "Steiner says" -
            'why walk around the mountain to find the path upwards - begin from the
            point at which you already stand.' The path is unique to each
            individual --- how much more could the 'I' ask for?

            I encourage people to not be afraid... to not doubt and most of all to
            put aside their hate. As Michael says " to trust ... without the
            security of existence". Then we can truly LIVE!

            I also urge everyone to read "The Art of Goethean Conversation" by
            Marjorie Spock. We can learn much from this little book. How to truly
            hear what another is saying - even the Silence! How to engage in our
            true humanity, through our own silence and a sincere, unprejudiced and
            lively response to the actual subject being discussed. In this time,
            conversation is shallow, as one person talks over another and
            introduces a new subject (subjective). Even as one person is either
            talking or interjecting, neither actually hears their own words either.
            People perpetually speak nonsense or as Rudolf Steiner says "untruths".

            peace and love ... Sue.




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          • Durward Starman
            Well, Sue, I ve had a bit of experience the past few years in online groups, even before the owner of this list asked me to moderate it. And from that I can
            Message 5 of 5 , May 29 7:58 AM
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              Well, Sue, I've had a bit of experience the past few years in online
              groups, even before the owner of this list asked me to moderate it. And from
              that I can say that it's just as well that a list is quiet, because most of
              the "talk", even on so-called 'anthroposophical' lists, is bad-tempered,
              trivial and not worthy of people supposedly on the spiritual path. Many
              people feel the medium itself somehow inhibits 'Goethean' conversation,
              where one soul truly meets another and significant things are said---- I
              don't think so, but rather that we are at many and varied stages of
              development as individuals, and this is a medium open to the masses;
              therefore, gibberish, scatological graffiti and infantile rantings often are
              the majority of the mindless "contributions". Just go into any chat room
              allegedly for the purpose of discussing one topic or another and see how
              little that topic is discussed and how much is people on their little
              soap-box, or getting ego-gratification, or flirting. So I favor quality
              rather than quantity.

              Also, in any group there are about 5% of individuals strong enough to
              speak out, while the majority are usually content to listen a large
              percentage of the time. We who post are therefore, in a way, the
              representatives of the silent majority and need to try to act as such, and
              occasionally one of the others will be drawn out into communication. As far
              as this group is concerned, for some reason an incredibly large number of
              people choose to have no e-mail delivered to their mail-boxes, meaning that
              a conversation in anything remotely approaching real time is impossible.
              They go to the web-site to read the posts whenerver they feel like it,
              meaning nothing is predictable or can be organized easily, as the failure to
              study together this past Holy Nights showed. So it requires patience.

              Perhaps people could post something here about how they are using or wish
              to use spirit-science in their lives. We have some Waldorf teachers here and
              undoubtedly a few people involved in bio-dynamic agriculture,
              anthroposophical medicine, the arts, etc. As some of you know, I have used
              it to develop an approach to astrology and practice as an astrologer. That's
              a pretty big subject in itself. I also am a painter and musician and try to
              bring higher consciousness into my work with both: I've been trained in
              painting but there seems to be no unified approach to music from out of
              anthroposophy to study yet.


              -starman
              www.DrStarman.com





              >From: Sue <aquariusrises2001@...>
              >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
              >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [steiner] Science and Religion
              >Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:24:34 +0100 (BST)
              >
              >To All,
              >
              >The fact that everyone IS so quiet in this group, is a discussion in
              >itself. Apart from M. Morrell's fictional ramblings, it's as if
              >everyone is paralysed. I try to put myself in their shoes and ask
              >myself why people feel that they want to be a memeber of this group and
              >yet don't partake. Is it because they want to be on the periphery and
              >merely watch? (for what?), or is it that they feel they have nothing to
              >contribute? Or is it because they are afraid of saying something which
              >might be in error?
              >
              >It is my experience, that the human being cannot perpetually take
              >without giving something back. There is no-one in this group, including
              >myself, who 'knows" everything. In fact I believe that those who feel
              >they 'know' everything are mistaken. The concept of a group, must
              >surely be the hope of honest discussion - a to-ing and fro-ing of
              >ideas, hopefully in a Goethean way - and since this IS a Steiner group,
              >one must presume that people either know something about Spiritual
              >Scince or want to know.
              >
              >I am going to put my head on the chopping block and open myself up for
              >criticism and judgment!
              >
              >I don't know how many peole here are anthropops, or even if they
              >understand Anthroposophy, but there must be a curiosity. It's tru that
              >through meditation, the Silence speaks, however the Silence can't be
              >heard by those who have not prepared themselves to HEAR!
              >
              >
              >
              >___________________________________________________________
              >The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
              >your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
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