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Re: [steiner] Designers behind evolution

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  • Sue
    Hi Evert .. Try Knowledge of Higher Worlds or Spiritual Hierarchies or Cosmic Memory or Cosmosophy , or Lectures to the Workmen of the Goetheanum, or
    Message 1 of 9 , May 6, 2006
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      Hi Evert ..

      Try "Knowledge of Higher Worlds" or "Spiritual Hierarchies" or "Cosmic
      Memory " or "Cosmosophy ", or Lectures to the Workmen of the
      Goetheanum, or Bio-Dynamic Lectures, there are lectures here about
      bees, ... or "Behind the Scenes of External Happenings" .. "The Four
      Seasons and the Archangels ", in fact just about everything that you
      can pick up from Steiner, talks about the spiritual behind the
      material. The confusing part is knowing where to begin ... "plunge into
      the semblance". There is much to be found. Have you tried the Rudolf
      Steiner Archives?

      Good luck ... regards ... Sue.

      Also Stanley Messenger has an interesting essay on butterflies in the
      Glastonbury Archives. :)



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    • My2Cents
      Hello, Evert, There are very many sources from Steiner as Sue mentioned, but it seems to me certain works are perhaps a bit more specific on these points than
      Message 2 of 9 , May 6, 2006
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        Hello, Evert,

        There are very many sources from Steiner as Sue mentioned, but it seems to me certain works are perhaps a bit more specific on these points than some others. Among those I've profited greatly from regarding these aspects, are, off hand, Steiner's *Genesis*, *Man in the Light of Occultism, Theosophy and Philosophy* (10 lectures, Christiania, June, 1912) and *Cosmic Metamorphosis*, among many others. It seems to me there might also be something along these lines in his *The Effects of Occultism Upon the Etheric Sheaths of Man*.

        Blessings,

        My2Cents

        --- On Sat 05/06, Evert Hoff < evert.hoff@... > wrote:
        From: Evert Hoff [mailto: evert.hoff@...]
        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 14:43:51 +0200
        Subject: [steiner] Designers behind evolution


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      • DoctorStarman@aol.com
        In a message dated 5/6/2006 8:45:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... *******I don t think that s quite the case. The beings themselves strive to do this or that,
        Message 3 of 9 , May 7, 2006
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          In a message dated 5/6/2006 8:45:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, evert.hoff@... writes:

          Hi,

          Please point me to texts where Steiner describes which beings did all the
          design work behind evolution. For example, the beings who designed the
          mechanisms by which plants and insects/birds interact to bring about
          cross-pollination.

          Thanks,
          Evert


          *******I don't think that's quite the case. The beings themselves strive to do this or that, to master certain tasks: the beings at the level of present-day plants, to be conscious of LIFE, the beings going through the stage of animals, to possess an image-consciousness, etc. Then, in the last world, the Old Moon, all this was imbued with wisdom by the Spirits of Wisdom. So, for instance, two kinds of beings sought particular things out of their natures, and through this being imbued with wisdom we now see a "symbiosis", a cooperation of two kinds of beings, like the insects with the plant kingdom. But it's not that they were "designed" that way (like a screwdriver to fit a screw) by a force outside them, not as I understand it. But it's a large subject, life and nature, evolution and "design."

          -starman
          www.DrStarman.com
        • Mathew Morrell
          There is an intelligent design in nature, created by supreme beings, that is encoded in the cellular structure and is pre-determined; and yet, as Starman said,
          Message 4 of 9 , May 8, 2006
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            There is an intelligent design in nature, created by supreme beings, that is encoded in the cellular structure and is pre-determined; and yet, as Starman said, we shouldn't ignore the fact that life forms have will; and that it is the ability of ours to will that continually alters our genetic program through the ages.  Any theory of evolution that does not at least include `the will' as a primary factor within evolvement is flawed and short sighted.  The Lamarckian revolt against Darwinism was based precisely on this argument--- not on the principles of "the survival of the fittest" or of "accidental selection."  In Darwinism, it is an accident that giraffes have long necks.  To Lamarck, giraffes evolved long necks because, on an unconscious level, through desire, they willed their necks to grow longer; food grew scarce and they needed to reach for food on the higher branches of trees in order to survive.  Through successive generations giraffes grew longer and longer necks.  The operatives in the American public school system repress the Lamarckian theory of evolution because it does not conform to the idea that we are shaped by our environment; in other words, it is non-Marxian.  It embraces self determination.

             

            I, for one, embrace the theory of evolution that involves all three evolutionary principles:  environmentalism (which says life forms are shaped by their environment), self determination (which says they are shaped by their will), and intelligent design (which says we were shaped by higher powers).  All three impulses are actively at work in shaping, not only man, but all life within our universe.  Call it the Goethian Theory of Evolution, if you will.

             

             

            Mathew Morrell

            www.kcpost.net

             

          • Evert Hoff
            Hi Mathew, The idea that the evolution of humans and animals is shaped by their will is interesting. I never considered this before - I just assumed that since
            Message 5 of 9 , May 8, 2006
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              Hi Mathew,
               
              The idea that the evolution of humans and animals is shaped by their will is interesting. I never considered this before - I just assumed that since we don't even understand how our bodies work and how to change them that we don't have influence over their evolution. But, we do have the ability to at least try to will changes to take place. The willing of humans and animals is maybe how humans and animals communicate to the higher beings or higher levels of our own beings who are able to change the designs of our bodies.
               
              I just hope that the willing of humans doesn't have too much influence over our evolution, because both males and females are currently willing changes to their anatomy that will have humans looking very funny if it all actually started changing - we will start looking like giraffs but with different parts super-sized.
               
              What's the difference between desiring something to change and willing the change into existence? Is it a different part of our souls that do willing instead of desiring? Do you think the beings who design bodies respond to desires expressed or only to willing by plants, animals and humans?
               
              Evert
               


              From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Morrell
              Sent: 08 May 2006 09:53 PM
              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [steiner] Re: Designers behind evolution

              There is an intelligent design in nature, created by supreme beings, that is encoded in the cellular structure and is pre-determined; and yet, as Starman said, we shouldn't ignore the fact that life forms have will; and that it is the ability of ours to will that continually alters our genetic program through the ages.  Any theory of evolution that does not at least include `the will' as a primary factor within evolvement is flawed and short sighted.  The Lamarckian revolt against Darwinism was based precisely on this argument--- not on the principles of "the survival of the fittest" or of "accidental selection."  In Darwinism, it is an accident that giraffes have long necks.  To Lamarck, giraffes evolved long necks because, on an unconscious level, through desire, they willed their necks to grow longer; food grew scarce and they needed to reach f or food on the higher branches of trees in order to survive.  Through successive generations giraffes grew longer and longer necks.  The operatives in the American public school system repress the Lamarckian theory of evolution because it does not conform to the idea that we are shaped by our environment; in other words, it is non-Marxian.  It embraces self determination.

              I, for one, embrace the theory of evolution that involves all three evolutionary principles:  environmentalism (which says life forms are shaped by their environment), self determination (which says they are shaped by their will), and intelligent design (which says we were shaped by higher powers).  All three impulses are actively at work in shaping, not only man, but all life within our universe.  Call it the Goethian Theory of Evolution, if you will.

              Mathew Morrell

              www.kcpost.net

               

            • Mathew Morrell
              ... over ... changes ... actually ... different ... The red light district of the Internet bears that statement out. Hubba hubba. ... the ... willing ... to
              Message 6 of 9 , May 8, 2006
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                > I just hope that the willing of humans doesn't have too much influence over
                > our evolution, because both males and females are currently willing changes
                > to their anatomy that will have humans looking very funny if it all actually
                > started changing - we will start looking like giraffs but with different
                > parts super-sized.

                The 'red light district' of the Internet bears that statement out.   Hubba hubba.


                > What's the difference between desiring something to change and willing the
                > change into existence? Is it a different part of our souls that do willing
                > instead of desiring? Do you think the beings who design bodies respond to
                > desires expressed or only to willing by plants, animals and humans?
                >
                > Evert

                Strangely enough, the Wikepedia online encyclodpedia doesn't mention "the will" as an intricle element of Lamarckian evolution.  However Wikepedia doesn provide a descent background on the subject.  

                Lamarck developed two laws:

                1. In every animal which has not passed the limit of its development, a more frequent and continuous use of any organ gradually strengthens, develops and enlarges that organ, and gives it a power proportional to the length of time it has been so used; while the permanent disuse of any organ imperceptibly weakens and deteriorates it, and progressively diminishes its functional capacity, until it finally disappears.
                2. All the acquisitions or losses wrought by nature on individuals, through the influence of the environment in which their race has long been placed, and hence through the influence of the predominant use or permanent disuse of any organ; all these are preserved by reproduction to the new individuals which arise, provided that the acquired modifications are common to both sexes, or at least to the individuals which produce the young.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarck

              • Mathew Morrell
                Well one thing we do know, as occultist, is the effect that desire has upon our etheric body---the body that is the most closely connected to the physical body
                Message 7 of 9 , May 9, 2006
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                  Well one thing we do know, as occultist, is the effect that desire
                  has upon our etheric body---the body that is the most closely
                  connected to the physical body and all its processes, including the
                  genetic process involved in evolution.

                  All the thoughts and emotions that we will are recorded, via our
                  astral bodies, into our etheric bodies, almost as if the etheric body
                  was a very sophisticated recording device that works on an invisible
                  level. In fact, our entire life is recorded within the etheric body,
                  down to the minutest detail, every thought and emotion, everything
                  seen, touched, felt, heard. When a hypnotist is working on a subject
                  he is actually leading the patient into the psychic warehouse called
                  the etheric body. When people see their lives "flash before their
                  eyes" they're actually seeing a glimpse of their etheric body.

                  Therefore, thinking is not an isolated event. Every thought we
                  embrace creates a sort of ripple of energy within different levels of
                  our psyche. Because of the etheric body's close connection to the
                  physical body, these "ripples" of energy have a profound effect upon
                  our genetic structure and the way in which it encodes information.
                  When we actually produce a change in our DNA that change is passed
                  down to our succeeding generation. However, at this level, change
                  occurs very slowly. We must measure physical evolution in terms of
                  millions of years, and not life times, to see dramatic changes:
                  longer necks, longer legs, etc.

                  It's the sudden jumps in evolution that are un-accounted for by any
                  theory of evolution, be it Darwinism or Lamarckian evolution.


                  Mathew Morrell
                  www.kcpost.net
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