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RE: [steiner] Re: Suicide

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  • Kathy Landes
    Thank you for your reply. I looked up suicide in the archive and found one reference. I wish there would have been more responses to my post. There are many
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 12, 2005
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      Thank you for your reply.

       I looked up suicide in the archive and found one reference.

       

      I wish there would have been more responses to my post. There are many people in the group, who seem much more knowledgeable than I am with Steiner’s works. Was my post not intellectual enough for them? It is a shame this group did not recognize the opportunity to help someone who is grieving.

       

      Thanks again for your response.

      Kat

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry
      Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:17 PM
      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [steiner] Re: Suicide

       

      kathy wrote:
         
      > I have read Steiner's book about what happens to the soul after
      > death.
      > I  know that the soul hangs out on the earth plane for a while.
      >
      > What is the experience of a soul that committed suicide? Are they
      > comforted by angels? Will it take him a while to shed his bodies?
      >
      > I would very grateful to anyone who can help me with
      this.                                                                 
                                                                            
        I went to the Rudolf Steiner Archive (rsarchive.org), pressed
      Search, searched on the word suicide. They seem to have at least
      several relevant references on
      this.                                                                 
            Larry



    • Larry
      ... Hi Kathy, here s a weird thing. There are 2 blank spaces that can be used to search with. I went back and searched using the Rudolf Steiner Archive blank
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 12, 2005
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        Kathy Landes wrote:
        > Thank you for your reply.
        > I looked up suicide in the archive and found one reference.
        >

        Hi Kathy, here's a weird thing. There are 2 blank spaces that can be
        used to search with. I went back and searched using the "Rudolf
        Steiner Archive" blank space (the lower one), got zero references.
        Then I tried using the blank space with "Google" next to it, the one
        that offers the twin options within it of "search archive" and "search
        web" (I used "search archive"). This turned up 23 references, though I
        assume they're not all really
        relevant.

        What I do remember having read sometime somewhere was to the
        effect that the afterlife is more difficult for a suicide, that from
        the time they die until the time when they were more-or-less "meant"
        to die they're in an unusual condition of being, maybe the word limbo
        was
        used.

        I also know that I've read some prayers that he recommended for
        when people die, but again of course I don't remember the title of the
        work that they were in. I'll check around my books, see if they're
        tucked away somewheres. - Larry
      • LilOleMissy
        Kathy, the fault is not your s at all. Speaking for myself, I have an uncooperative leg promising to heal by Christmas. ACK! What is so awful about it is
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 13, 2005
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          Kathy, the fault is not your's at all. Speaking for myself, I have an "uncooperative" leg promising to heal by Christmas. ACK! What is so awful about it is that I'm not allowed to be up on it, so let's hope no one "squeals" to my doctor. :) Like you, I remember reading Steiner's words about suicide. I, too, lost a dear friend that way and in spite of realizing the truth [now WHERE did I read that?!], I also remember how Steiner speaks of a subsequent life or subsequent lifetimes of such an individual. It seems to me so much depends upon individual circumstances, and here I am verging off a strictly Steiner pathway, so please be forewarned? So many suicides happen during a moment, or longer, in time when the victim is "of unsound mind" - well, Karma is just, with everything exactly adjusted in time. Being of unsound mind, whether temporarily or long term, is an abnormal condition and it simply seems to me that fact alone would be considered along with everything else pertaining to an individual regardless of cause of death.

          There exists a book, which I'd love to have, listing various topics in Steiner's books and lectures, making it so much easier to look up his reference to it. Hopefully someone would be able to locate this reference? Before I have to once again be "the slob of the day in a recliner", I'll grab several books as I sneak past and continue investigating as I'm able.

          I am so sorry for your loss and most definitely can relate to your fears, but that is no solice - we need the facts!

          Hugs,

          Sheila Pickerill

          Kathy Landes wrote:

          Thank you for your reply.

           I looked up suicide in the archive and found one reference.

           

          I wish there would have been more responses to my post. There are many people in the group, who seem much more knowledgeable than I am with Steiner’s works. Was my post not intellectual enough for them? It is a shame this group did not recognize the opportunity to help someone who is grieving.

           

          Thanks again for your response.

          Kat

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry
          Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:17 PM
          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [steiner] Re: Suicide

           

          kathy wrote:
             
          > I have read Steiner's book about what happens to the soul after
          > death.
          > I  know that the soul hangs out on the earth plane for a while.
          >
          > What is the experience of a soul that committed suicide? Are they
          > comforted by angels? Will it take him a while to shed his bodies?
          >
          > I would very grateful to anyone who can help me with
          this.                                                                 
                                                                                
            I went to the Rudolf Steiner Archive (rsarchive.org), pressed
          Search, searched on the word suicide. They seem to have at least
          several relevant references on
          this.                                                                 
                Larry






        • kathy
          Thanks Sheila, My friend Ryan had been mentally ill for some time. He remained mostly in bed for the past year. I wish I could done more for him. We did talk
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 14, 2005
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            Thanks Sheila,

            My friend Ryan had been mentally ill for some time. He remained
            mostly
            in bed for the past year. I wish I could done more for him. We did
            talk about spiritual things.
            I have been trying to contact him, but all I see is murkiness. My
            angel guide says he hovers near the earth and is coddled by angels.

            I have been doing some research on how to help a tormented soul and
            found the book "Light Beyond The Darkness, The healing of a Suicide
            Across the Threshold of Death."

            The book is based on Steiner and reading to the dead. The souls of
            the
            dead thirst for spirtual knowledge. I am setting the intention to
            read
            to him daily in order to help him make his transition.

            Thanks,
            Kat

            PS. I miss Starman

            Today I will be reading from "An Outline of Esoteric Science, Sleep
            and Death." Does anyone have any suggestions of other readings or
            something that could enhance this practice?
          • LilOleMissy
            Kat, bless you, Dear girl! You are helping Ryan enormously!!!!! It seems to me Steiner continuously emphasized the gift of reading to the Dead , and that he
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 14, 2005
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              Kat, bless you, Dear girl! You are helping Ryan enormously!!!!! It
              seems to me Steiner continuously emphasized the gift of "reading to
              the Dead", and that he specifically recommended "Life After Death and
              the Inner Nature of Man", Vienna - I think that may be 1911 OR 1913,
              but am not sure. I read to the dead, mentally seeing each face as I
              had seen it in life, and then when I "feel, in a sense" surrounded by
              friends, if that makes any sense, we begin. Somewhere Steiner
              mentions to the effect that the "dead" hunger for spiritual insights,
              and that by reading to them, we send them innumerable help!

              I'm still looking. My "library" is upstairs and I'm trying! :)

              Blessings,

              Sheila

              On Aug 14, 2005, at 9:31 AM, kathy wrote:

              > Thanks Sheila,
              >
              > My friend Ryan had been mentally ill for some time. He remained
              > mostly
              > in bed for the past year. I wish I could done more for him. We did
              > talk about spiritual things.
              > I have been trying to contact him, but all I see is murkiness. My
              > angel guide says he hovers near the earth and is coddled by angels.
              >
              > I have been doing some research on how to help a tormented soul and
              > found the book "Light Beyond The Darkness, The healing of a Suicide
              > Across the Threshold of Death."
              >
              > The book is based on Steiner and reading to the dead. The souls of
              > the
              > dead thirst for spirtual knowledge. I am setting the intention to
              > read
              > to him daily in order to help him make his transition.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Kat
              >
              > PS. I miss Starman
              >
              > Today I will be reading from "An Outline of Esoteric Science, Sleep
              > and Death." Does anyone have any suggestions of other readings or
              > something that could enhance this practice?
              >
              >
              >
            • LilOleMissy
              Kat, I needed to correct my error of yesterday regarding the title of the book I mentioned. It is The Inner Nature of Man and The Life Between Death and
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 15, 2005
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                Kat, I needed to correct my error of yesterday regarding the title of
                the book I mentioned. It is "The Inner Nature of Man and The Life
                Between Death and Rebirth". You are fulfilling a critical need for
                Ryan by reading to him--"somewhere" Steiner speaks of the darkness a
                suicide wanders through after death and how we can help show them a
                correct pathway into the "Light". It seems to me Steiner expresses it
                somewhat as follows: [paraphrased here very badly by me, I'm afraid]
                The soul who has entered into Kamaloka through suicide finds himself
                in the dark but through our very own thoughts directed towards him
                with love, we can help lead him towards the Light and those others he
                has known during life as well as those Spiritual Beings who guide us
                during our early sojourn through the backward journey and those areas
                he requires. Kat, it has always seemed to me we have the ability to
                reach those we have known and cared about in the physical world, and
                we can do so through our visualizing them as they were during earthly
                life as clearly as we can while giving them the soul-food they so
                desperately are searching for! I would hope to see some feedback here
                on this, and yes, I, too, miss Dr. Starman.

                "Somewhere" - I think in one of the Gospel works - Steiner speaks of
                Evil Beings inhabiting the soul of those who are of unsound mind - I
                think it is where he speaks of "casting out" Beings and how these
                evil Beings flee into the bodies of pigs. I feel those who are of
                unsound mind are possessed of Evil Beings. While I was in college
                learning medicine, I had to live in a large state mental hospital for
                the "insane" - I was shocked to find - sense, rather - what seemed to
                me an enormous presence of living beings other than the patients
                locked up in the room I had entered, and this sensation of a "large
                presence" regardless of how many of us were visible remained always
                in their presence. Naturally no one there had any explanation for my
                feeling this, and quite frankly I felt at the time some medical
                personnel wondered if something was wrong with me! I can't describe
                in words what I "felt" and even in private sessions with one other
                individual, I never felt she/he and I were alone. At the time I
                lacked Steiner's knowledge of these matters - I was never afraid,
                simply sensing a large presence I was unable to understand. Years
                later in medical work I found I sometimes could bring calm to a
                restless soul by directing my entire beings' thoughts of love, calm,
                hope and Spirituality toward that very person and it was something I
                felt unable to share with mainstream medical colleagues. Thankfully
                for the sake of remaining in my career it was a silent outwardly non-
                action I resorted to time and time again and continue to do so! It
                seems to me Steiner stressed over and over again the extreme
                importance of visualizing a person as clearly as possible and
                directing our thoughts to them as we read to them. Steiner mentions
                something to the effect t hat we bring untold help to those who are
                seeking it with desperate need.

                Blessings,

                Sheila

                On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:16 PM, LilOleMissy wrote:

                > Kat, bless you, Dear girl! You are helping Ryan enormously!!!!! It
                > seems to me Steiner continuously emphasized the gift of "reading to
                > the Dead", and that he specifically recommended "Life After Death and
                > the Inner Nature of Man", Vienna - I think that may be 1911 OR 1913,
                > but am not sure. I read to the dead, mentally seeing each face as I
                > had seen it in life, and then when I "feel, in a sense" surrounded by
                > friends, if that makes any sense, we begin. Somewhere Steiner
                > mentions to the effect that the "dead" hunger for spiritual insights,
                > and that by reading to them, we send them innumerable help!
                >
                > I'm still looking. My "library" is upstairs and I'm trying! :)
                >
                > Blessings,
                >
                > Sheila
                >
                > On Aug 14, 2005, at 9:31 AM, kathy wrote:
                >
                >
                >> Thanks Sheila,
                >>
                >> My friend Ryan had been mentally ill for some time. He remained
                >> mostly
                >> in bed for the past year. I wish I could done more for him. We did
                >> talk about spiritual things.
                >> I have been trying to contact him, but all I see is murkiness. My
                >> angel guide says he hovers near the earth and is coddled by angels.
                >>
                >> I have been doing some research on how to help a tormented soul and
                >> found the book "Light Beyond The Darkness, The healing of a Suicide
                >> Across the Threshold of Death."
                >>
                >> The book is based on Steiner and reading to the dead. The souls of
                >> the
                >> dead thirst for spirtual knowledge. I am setting the intention to
                >> read
                >> to him daily in order to help him make his transition.
                >>
                >> Thanks,
                >> Kat
                >>
                >> PS. I miss Starman
                >>
                >> Today I will be reading from "An Outline of Esoteric Science, Sleep
                >> and Death." Does anyone have any suggestions of other readings or
                >> something that could enhance this practice?
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
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              • DoctorStarman@aol.com
                ... ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ Starman is not far away, and answers (from somewhere in Iceland): That is a good reading to start with, or the chapter on The Soul In The
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 15, 2005
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                  On Aug 14, 2005, at 9:31 AM, kathy wrote:

                  > Thanks Sheila,
                  >
                  > My friend Ryan had been mentally ill for some time. He remained
                  > mostly
                  > in bed for the past year. I wish I could done more for him. We did
                  > talk about spiritual things.
                  > I have been trying to contact him, but all I see is murkiness. My
                  > angel guide says he hovers near the earth and is coddled by angels.
                  >
                  > I have been doing some research on how to help a tormented soul and
                  > found the book "Light Beyond The Darkness, The healing of a Suicide
                  > Across the Threshold of Death."
                  >
                  > The book is based on Steiner and reading to the dead. The souls of
                  > the
                  > dead thirst for spirtual knowledge. I am setting the intention to
                  > read
                  > to him daily in order to help him make his transition.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Kat
                  >
                  > PS. I miss Starman
                  >
                  >  Today I will be reading from "An Outline of Esoteric Science, Sleep
                  > and Death." Does anyone have any suggestions of other readings or
                  > something that could enhance this practice?
                  >
                  >
                  ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ Starman is not far away, and answers (from somewhere in Iceland):
                    That is a good reading to start with, or the chapter on "The Soul In The Soul World after Death" in Steiner's basic book THEOSOPHY. After death we first review all the contents of the etheric body, which are experienced as pictures---- this is "your life flashing before your eyes" when you come close to death, when the process of death begins. This usually lasts 2-4 days.
                  Then begins what Steiner, using the old Oriental name, called our time in Kamaloca. Here we experience all the feelings we had in the life just lived, but we feel them inside-out" or in other words the emotions that WE caused OTHERS to feel are now our "insides". And we also experience all the feelings for things which can only be satisfied on earth: food, other bodily pleasures.
                  As a person slowly dies of old age, these feelings and desires usually die out gradually. but a young healthy person with lots of life forces has a very hard time here, because all the desires are still so very much alive, but he is now deprived of the body needed to satisfy them. This is true of any young healthy people who die.
                  But in addition, a suicide wishes to obliterate consciousness, to find nothingness (as we imagine or wish death to be)---- but instead still has all the feelings due to which he deprived himself of his life, all his woes and yearnings, IN ADDITION to all the bodily wants which can no longer be satisfied. So their passage thru Kamaloca is difficult.
                  As Sheila said, a ritual of reading to those who have crossed the threshold can help more than anything. You feel all your feelings for the person, then take any writing which has a spiritual content and read it, thinking about each word as you do so. This is "food" for souls on the other side.
                  Steiner gives another way of communicating with them thru the dream state in this lecture online here:
                  http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/DeadUs_index.html
                  But first and foremost it is needed to KNOW the person does indeed still exist, though a veil may separate us at times.
                  -starman
                  www.DrStarman.com
                  
                  
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