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Re: [steiner] Revelations 12:16

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  • Pierre Gringoire
    ... Illegal immigration is a right-wing political issue. I have no problem with right-wing (or left-wing) issues being raised on this list but I think there
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 13, 2005
      > Instead of pink teddy bears and insipid candle light vigils,
      > we should see the men of England stand up and enact laws
      > that will stop the flood of illegal immigration.
       

           Illegal immigration is a right-wing political issue.  I have no problem with right-wing (or left-wing) issues being raised on this list but I think there should be an attempt to show how they relate to Anthroposophy.  If the discussion is to be Anthroposophical rather than political, then the demonising of other cultures is simply the wrong approach to take in matters like this.

           The reason we live in such times is because of our karma; in other words, becauae of what we have engendered for ourselves through our past incarnations.  To suggest that we can deal with karma by physically isolating ourselves from what we regard as 'diabolical' influences is simply to miss the point.

           When Steiner spoke "Arabism in Europe" he was talking about Arab souls incarnating into European bodies, not Arabs immigrating into Europe.  Arabism in Europe gave rise to Materialism and to the continuing influence of Romanism on the Catholic Church; in other words, Arabism in Europe is Western culture itself, not something foreign to it.  The call for tighter border control is based on the assumption that Western culture is somehow intrinsically 'good'.  To see the world in this way is to ignore the fact that Western culture is based directly on Materialism, on its principles and beliefs.  The materialistic culture of the West is at best a necessary evil, and not some Christian beacon of light.

    • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
      The lower co-creators were the dragon who created the flood. Post-flood, post-atlantean, the separation of the sexes. The earth helped the woman to give
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 15, 2005
        The lower co-creators were the dragon who created the flood.  Post-flood, post-atlantean, the separation of the sexes.  The earth helped the woman to give birth to more separated souls.  I didn't read your email just the passage.  So I am probably missing alot of your intent.  I just sent my two cents. Just for fun. 
         
        "Whatever you believe you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic to it." ~Goethe~
      • DoctorStarman@aol.com
        ... *******I disagree on a number of points. First I ll point out that if you criticized Islamic civilization the same way from within it, you might pay for
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 15, 2005

          >Instead of pink teddy bears and insipid candle light vigils,
          >we should see the men of England stand up and enact laws
          >that will stop the flood of illegal immigration.
          gringoire@... writes:
              Illegal immigration is a right-wing political issue.  I have no problem with right-wing (or left-wing) issues being raised on this list but I think there should be an attempt to show how they relate to Anthroposophy.  If the discussion is to be Anthroposophical rather than political, then the demonising of other cultures is simply the wrong approach to take in matters like this.
           
              The reason we live in such times is because of our karma; in other words, becauae of what we have engendered for ourselves through our past incarnations.  To suggest that we can deal with karma by physically isolating ourselves from what we regard as 'diabolical' influences is simply to miss the point.
           
              When Steiner spoke "Arabism in Europe" he was talking about Arab souls incarnating into European bodies, not Arabs immigrating into Europe.  Arabism in Europe gave rise to Materialism and to the continuing influence of Romanism on the Catholic Church; in other words, Arabism in Europe is Western culture itself, not something foreign to it.  The call for tighter border control is based on the assumption that Western culture is somehow intrinsically 'good'.  To see the world in this way is to ignore the fact that Western culture is based directly on Materialism, on its principles and beliefs.  The materialistic culture of the West is at best a necessary evil, and not some Christian beacon of light.


          *******I disagree on a number of points. First I'll point out that if you criticized "Islamic civilization" the same way from within it, you might pay for it with your life---- as Bruno and Huss and the others who defied the theocracy that once ruled Europe did.

             Our Western civilization is indeed a beacon of light, won by the lives of brave men like them, just as our freedom of speech in America was won by the revolutionaries who fought and died so we would have it. But freedom has to be defended; as Jefferson put it, "The Tree of Liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots---and Tyrants. That is its natural manure."

              "Arabism in Europe" is not what rules the West, but is rather a PART of it-----one caused by the same false materialistic interpretations of Aristotle, etc., which Steiner fought as Thomas Aquinas, and which Islam championed THEN, and STILL DOES NOW. It does not know the Christ; where Christ works indeed in Western civilization, very powerfully, which is why it prizes freedom and the individual. The ideology of Islam does not, any more than the Roman Catholic Church did. It was that Western civilization that Rudolf Steiner came to renew, not to condemn.

             Martin Luther had the right to say he thought the Pope and the Roman Church was the great Beast in Revelations, satanic distorter of Christ---- and I have the right to say (with Steiner) that Islam is the tool of the Antichrist or Sorath (see below).

             Mankind is dividing into human and sub-human (the "separating of the sheep from the goats" in Matthew 24), and innocent people have the right to live without being threatened by diabolical creatures. So people preaching an anti-Christian and anti-Western ideology of hate and murder, who have no intention of assimilating into the society they enter (and pledging allegiance to it and its laws, and renouncing all other allegiances), but rather have open contempt for it and want only to conquer it by violence, these people simply have no "right" to immigration into other countries. That is not a political statement from one ideology or another. Look at the Israelis building a wall to keep their people safe; they do nothing to the people on the other side of the wall, and if those people cross over it to kill Israelis, then they show who is in the wrong and doing evil.

             We don't have to "demonize" Wahhabi Islam, it does so itself with every Van Gogh it kills and every Manhattan skyscraper it blows up and every London commuter it cripples.

              Once more, Steiner on Sorath and 1998:

          Rudolf SteinerĀ  September 1924 / Switzerland
          From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
          realms: the realm of NATURE  which is the realm of the Father
          (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) 
          and the realm of the SPIRIT.
          The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
          world I have just been speaking about. They know--- and can
          ONLY know---the Father.
          They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
          none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
          From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
          polarity to Christianity.
          Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
          worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will
          to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
          that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
          is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
          Father God alone.
          A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
          feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
          this. The human being cannot become filled through and
          through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
          the Father (alone).
          Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
          humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
          conceive the Father God.
          In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
          Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
          the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and
          vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
          Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
          arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
          example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
          from purely material causes.
          And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with
          the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
          mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
          Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
          spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or asĀ  "sun demon."
          This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
          such a way that  if a human being were to succumb to the lures
          of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
          being would --- by his own free choice --- surrender all inward
          connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with
          the sub-human spiritual realms.
          The apocalyptist saw this.  He felt and saw the mighty (future)
          counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
          It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that
          brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of
          all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
          will and action.
          And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
          looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
          work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
          sun-intelligence.
          If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
          of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
          dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
          Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
          the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
          impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
          The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
          counter-principle to Christianity --- such as Arabism and its
          deterministic conceptual constructs --- as direct outflow from the
          counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
          And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
          directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of
          transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this
          were the case but by allotting validity only to the Father principle, to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
          intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
          for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
          such as transubstantiation.
          (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
          the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
          of the number 666)
          During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
          actively at work within the external process of outward events; he
          was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
          Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
          1998 A.D.
          At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when
          Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
          waves of history.

          Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
          Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
          Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
          through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
          whom many are "possessed."

          Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
          believe that they are really human beings.
          These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
          external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at
          everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
          push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.

          Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
          savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
          emotions.

          The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
          deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
          apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
          beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary
          over against the spiritual.
          Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
          immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what
          is to come.
          - - - - - - - - - -
          >Source: The Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest (GA 346)
          >Rudolf Steiner 18 Lectures plus conversations
          >Dornach, September 1924


          -starman
        • Mathew Morrell
          Please elaborate, Cheese and Salsa, on how the earth helped the woman to give birth to more separated souls, as you put it. I ve been struggling with REV
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 16, 2005
            Please elaborate, Cheese and Salsa, on how "the earth helped the
            woman to give birth to more separated souls," as you put it.

            I've been struggling with REV 12:16 for a while now. Any help would
            be appreciated.


            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Cheeseandsalsa@a... wrote:
            > The lower co-creators were the dragon who created the flood. Post-
            flood,
            > post-atlantean, the separation of the sexes. The earth helped the
            woman to
            > give birth to more separated souls. I didn't read your email just
            the passage.
            > So I am probably missing alot of your intent. I just sent my two
            cents.
            > Just for fun.

            >
            > "Whatever you believe you can do or dream you can, begin it.
            Boldness has
            > genius, power, and magic to it." ~Goethe~
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