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Revelations 12:16

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  • Mathew Morrell
    I ve been wrestling with REV. 12:16 for quit some time now, trying to figure out the meaning to this passage: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 8, 2005
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      I've been wrestling with REV. 12:16 for quit some time now, trying to
      figure out the meaning to this passage: "And the earth helped the
      woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood
      which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

      The earth succeeds through non-action. By merely opening her mouth
      and swallowing the flood she saves the Spiritual Woman from the vile
      current of thought streaming from the Dragon. Here is the power of
      the eternal feminine. The earth succeeds by holding back.

      Non-action is not necessarily impudence; in the East it is an
      expression of power---power coming from moral rather than action-
      oriented principles. We resist the Dragon by keeping our passions in
      check, holding back, resisting the foul, profane, murderous stream of
      thought entering our world through Ahrimanic expression forms.

      Nonetheless the Dragon is not defeated. After the earth swallows the
      flood the Ahrimanic principle enters the void or sphere surrounding
      the Earth; this void is a principle of dual significance, both good
      and evil, connected to the Quabalistic idea of AIN---nothingness, but
      a nothingness that is mostly subliminal and unaware, lacking
      intellectual comprehension of itself. In essence it is the abyss in
      which the Ahrimanic principle incubates and develops like a fetus
      before fully manifesting in material form.

      We could say, then, that the Beast is a sublimation of the Dragon.
      It was created from the flood (the current of thought) spewing from
      the Dragon's mouth; the flood was swallowed; it entered the ABYSS
      state, and the Beast emerged from the ABYSS like a gigantic Godzilian
      sea creature of monstrous proportions. The Beast is the vehicle that
      the Dragon uses to wield his vengeance against the Spiritual Woman
      and her seed who "keep the commandments of God, and have the
      testimony of Jesus Christ."

      "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and
      they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who
      is able to make war with him?" [REV. 13:4]

      This seven-headed, ten-horned beast is a fantastic metaphor in the
      exciting, symbolic opera called the Book of Revelations; but this
      Event may also have a material-physical component that reverberates
      outside the mythological sphere. The Beast, evangelists say,
      represents the actual governmental force that controls and regulates
      religious/cultural life. Most intellectuals, on the other hand, say
      the Beast is merely a poetic symbol that should be interpreted
      metaphorically. Regardless who is right, the psychological forces are
      present in our contemporary culture to save the 21st century from the
      symptoms of Late Civilization. We can either be defeated by the ABYSS
      or overthrow the ABYSS by battling its monstrous creations that
      threaten to drag us down into the void
      of self destruction.

      On such "monstrous creation" is the Islamization of Europe. This
      must stop. Already England has suffered what will be one in a long
      series of string of attacks by the "religion of peace." Instead of
      pink teddy bears and insipid candle light vigils, we should see the
      men of England stand up and enact laws that will stop the flood of
      illegal immigration.
    • Pierre Gringoire
      ... Illegal immigration is a right-wing political issue. I have no problem with right-wing (or left-wing) issues being raised on this list but I think there
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 13, 2005
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        > Instead of pink teddy bears and insipid candle light vigils,
        > we should see the men of England stand up and enact laws
        > that will stop the flood of illegal immigration.
         

             Illegal immigration is a right-wing political issue.  I have no problem with right-wing (or left-wing) issues being raised on this list but I think there should be an attempt to show how they relate to Anthroposophy.  If the discussion is to be Anthroposophical rather than political, then the demonising of other cultures is simply the wrong approach to take in matters like this.

             The reason we live in such times is because of our karma; in other words, becauae of what we have engendered for ourselves through our past incarnations.  To suggest that we can deal with karma by physically isolating ourselves from what we regard as 'diabolical' influences is simply to miss the point.

             When Steiner spoke "Arabism in Europe" he was talking about Arab souls incarnating into European bodies, not Arabs immigrating into Europe.  Arabism in Europe gave rise to Materialism and to the continuing influence of Romanism on the Catholic Church; in other words, Arabism in Europe is Western culture itself, not something foreign to it.  The call for tighter border control is based on the assumption that Western culture is somehow intrinsically 'good'.  To see the world in this way is to ignore the fact that Western culture is based directly on Materialism, on its principles and beliefs.  The materialistic culture of the West is at best a necessary evil, and not some Christian beacon of light.

      • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
        The lower co-creators were the dragon who created the flood. Post-flood, post-atlantean, the separation of the sexes. The earth helped the woman to give
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 15, 2005
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          The lower co-creators were the dragon who created the flood.  Post-flood, post-atlantean, the separation of the sexes.  The earth helped the woman to give birth to more separated souls.  I didn't read your email just the passage.  So I am probably missing alot of your intent.  I just sent my two cents. Just for fun. 
           
          "Whatever you believe you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic to it." ~Goethe~
        • DoctorStarman@aol.com
          ... *******I disagree on a number of points. First I ll point out that if you criticized Islamic civilization the same way from within it, you might pay for
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 15, 2005
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            >Instead of pink teddy bears and insipid candle light vigils,
            >we should see the men of England stand up and enact laws
            >that will stop the flood of illegal immigration.
            gringoire@... writes:
                Illegal immigration is a right-wing political issue.  I have no problem with right-wing (or left-wing) issues being raised on this list but I think there should be an attempt to show how they relate to Anthroposophy.  If the discussion is to be Anthroposophical rather than political, then the demonising of other cultures is simply the wrong approach to take in matters like this.
             
                The reason we live in such times is because of our karma; in other words, becauae of what we have engendered for ourselves through our past incarnations.  To suggest that we can deal with karma by physically isolating ourselves from what we regard as 'diabolical' influences is simply to miss the point.
             
                When Steiner spoke "Arabism in Europe" he was talking about Arab souls incarnating into European bodies, not Arabs immigrating into Europe.  Arabism in Europe gave rise to Materialism and to the continuing influence of Romanism on the Catholic Church; in other words, Arabism in Europe is Western culture itself, not something foreign to it.  The call for tighter border control is based on the assumption that Western culture is somehow intrinsically 'good'.  To see the world in this way is to ignore the fact that Western culture is based directly on Materialism, on its principles and beliefs.  The materialistic culture of the West is at best a necessary evil, and not some Christian beacon of light.


            *******I disagree on a number of points. First I'll point out that if you criticized "Islamic civilization" the same way from within it, you might pay for it with your life---- as Bruno and Huss and the others who defied the theocracy that once ruled Europe did.

               Our Western civilization is indeed a beacon of light, won by the lives of brave men like them, just as our freedom of speech in America was won by the revolutionaries who fought and died so we would have it. But freedom has to be defended; as Jefferson put it, "The Tree of Liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots---and Tyrants. That is its natural manure."

                "Arabism in Europe" is not what rules the West, but is rather a PART of it-----one caused by the same false materialistic interpretations of Aristotle, etc., which Steiner fought as Thomas Aquinas, and which Islam championed THEN, and STILL DOES NOW. It does not know the Christ; where Christ works indeed in Western civilization, very powerfully, which is why it prizes freedom and the individual. The ideology of Islam does not, any more than the Roman Catholic Church did. It was that Western civilization that Rudolf Steiner came to renew, not to condemn.

               Martin Luther had the right to say he thought the Pope and the Roman Church was the great Beast in Revelations, satanic distorter of Christ---- and I have the right to say (with Steiner) that Islam is the tool of the Antichrist or Sorath (see below).

               Mankind is dividing into human and sub-human (the "separating of the sheep from the goats" in Matthew 24), and innocent people have the right to live without being threatened by diabolical creatures. So people preaching an anti-Christian and anti-Western ideology of hate and murder, who have no intention of assimilating into the society they enter (and pledging allegiance to it and its laws, and renouncing all other allegiances), but rather have open contempt for it and want only to conquer it by violence, these people simply have no "right" to immigration into other countries. That is not a political statement from one ideology or another. Look at the Israelis building a wall to keep their people safe; they do nothing to the people on the other side of the wall, and if those people cross over it to kill Israelis, then they show who is in the wrong and doing evil.

               We don't have to "demonize" Wahhabi Islam, it does so itself with every Van Gogh it kills and every Manhattan skyscraper it blows up and every London commuter it cripples.

                Once more, Steiner on Sorath and 1998:

            Rudolf SteinerĀ  September 1924 / Switzerland
            From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
            realms: the realm of NATURE  which is the realm of the Father
            (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) 
            and the realm of the SPIRIT.
            The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
            world I have just been speaking about. They know--- and can
            ONLY know---the Father.
            They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
            none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
            From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
            polarity to Christianity.
            Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
            worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will
            to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
            that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
            is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
            Father God alone.
            A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
            feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
            this. The human being cannot become filled through and
            through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
            the Father (alone).
            Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
            humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
            conceive the Father God.
            In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
            Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
            the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and
            vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
            Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
            arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
            example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
            from purely material causes.
            And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with
            the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
            mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
            Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
            spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or asĀ  "sun demon."
            This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
            such a way that  if a human being were to succumb to the lures
            of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
            being would --- by his own free choice --- surrender all inward
            connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with
            the sub-human spiritual realms.
            The apocalyptist saw this.  He felt and saw the mighty (future)
            counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
            It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that
            brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of
            all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
            will and action.
            And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
            looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
            work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
            sun-intelligence.
            If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
            of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
            dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
            Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
            the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
            impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
            The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
            counter-principle to Christianity --- such as Arabism and its
            deterministic conceptual constructs --- as direct outflow from the
            counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
            And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
            directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of
            transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this
            were the case but by allotting validity only to the Father principle, to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
            intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
            for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
            such as transubstantiation.
            (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
            the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
            of the number 666)
            During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
            actively at work within the external process of outward events; he
            was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
            Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
            1998 A.D.
            At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when
            Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
            waves of history.

            Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
            Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
            Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
            through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
            whom many are "possessed."

            Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
            believe that they are really human beings.
            These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
            external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at
            everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
            push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.

            Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
            savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
            emotions.

            The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
            deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
            apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
            beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary
            over against the spiritual.
            Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
            immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what
            is to come.
            - - - - - - - - - -
            >Source: The Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest (GA 346)
            >Rudolf Steiner 18 Lectures plus conversations
            >Dornach, September 1924


            -starman
          • Mathew Morrell
            Please elaborate, Cheese and Salsa, on how the earth helped the woman to give birth to more separated souls, as you put it. I ve been struggling with REV
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 16, 2005
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              Please elaborate, Cheese and Salsa, on how "the earth helped the
              woman to give birth to more separated souls," as you put it.

              I've been struggling with REV 12:16 for a while now. Any help would
              be appreciated.


              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Cheeseandsalsa@a... wrote:
              > The lower co-creators were the dragon who created the flood. Post-
              flood,
              > post-atlantean, the separation of the sexes. The earth helped the
              woman to
              > give birth to more separated souls. I didn't read your email just
              the passage.
              > So I am probably missing alot of your intent. I just sent my two
              cents.
              > Just for fun.

              >
              > "Whatever you believe you can do or dream you can, begin it.
              Boldness has
              > genius, power, and magic to it." ~Goethe~
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