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Re: [steiner] Re: Links

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  • DoctorStarman@aol.com
    bscaro@yahoo.com writes: ... *******Apparently you didn t see Joel s post giving the link to the web site that settles the matter. So here it is again. It
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 3, 2005
      bscaro@... writes:

      I for one do focus on things Steiner wrote, which obviously don't line
      up with your ideas about him, but there you go.  
      But I don't think anyone's disputing that his letters to Reuss etc
      aren't BY him.  If you are, I'd surely like to know. ....


      *******Apparently you didn't see Joel's post giving the link to the web site that settles the matter. So here it is again. It says there are no letters from Steiner to this fellow.


      http://www.defendingsteiner.com/articles/rs-reuss.php


      Here's some excerpts from it:

      "After decades of incomplete media reports and propaganda efforts by partial parties regarding Rudolf Steiner's alleged membership in Theodor Reuss' German lodge of the Ordo Templi Orientis, for the first time, the archive of Rudolf Steiner's probate opened its vault (for the book "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader"), thereby giving historians the ammunition needed to finally put the matter to rest (extant are 4 letters of Reuss to Steiner and 21 of Reuss to Marie von Sivers. Steiner's letters to Reuss are missing or never existed; 4 drafts of Sivers to Reuss survive. Reproduced in "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader" is the Contract, the Edict of Reuss to Steiner, and two letters concerning Franz Hartmann.)
      There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted anything from Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's permission to use the term "Misraim". There exists no evidence nor any documentation which made Steiner a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis."

      Koenig, Peter-R. "Rudolf Steiner and Theodor Reuss" The Ordo Templi Orientis
      Phenomenon. 8 Jan 2004 <http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm>.

      Steiner's commentary on the issue as written in his Autobiography is also interesting:

      Even in this sphere we broke with the ancient traditions. Our work was carried on as work must be carried on if one investigates in spiritual-content in an original manner according to the requirements of full clarity in the mind's experience. The fact that the starting-point for all sorts of slanders was found in certain attestations which Marie von Sievers and I signed in linking up with the historic Yarker institution means that, in order to concoct such slanders, people treated the absurd with the grimace of the serious. Our signatures were given as a “form.” The customary thing was thus preserved. And while we were giving our signatures, I said as clearly as possible: “This is all a formality, and the practice which I shall institute will take over nothing from the Yarker practice.”


         It is obviously easy to make the observation afterwards that it would have been far more
      “discreet” not to link up with practices which could later be used by slanderers. But I would remark with all positiveness that, at the period of my life here under consideration, I was still one of those who assume uprightness, and not crooked ways, in the people with whom they have to do. Even spiritual perception did not alter at all this faith in men. This must not be misused for the purpose of investigating the intentions of one's fellow-men when this investigation is not desired by the man in question himself. In other cases the investigation of the inner nature of other souls remains a thing forbidden to the knower of the spirit; just as the unauthorized opening of a letter is something forbidden. And so one is related to men with whom one has to do in the same way as is any other person who has no knowledge of the spirit. But there is just this alternative – either to assume that others are straight-forward in their intentions until one has experienced the opposite, or else to be filled with sorrow as one views the entire world. A social co-operation with men is impossible for the latter mood, for such co-operation can be based only upon trust and not upon distrust.
      Rudolf Steiner, The Course of My Life.

      *******This is a group for the study of Steiner and his anthroposophy. Any further attempts to link him to extraneous and irrelevant other movements or individuals for the purpose of implying their similarity, equality or even that Steiner was derivative of them, will merely show that someone is not here for the study of Steiner. They will then be invited to go elsewhere and start their own group to study old rituals or secret societies or whatever it is they really want to study.

         This thread is closed. New ones about Steiner and anthroposophy are encouraged.

      -starman



    • bscaro
      Well, letters to Sievers about Reuss, then, I ll clarify that. But there s no conspiracy about this at all. I have no interest in proving anything about
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 4, 2005
        Well, letters to Sievers about Reuss, then, I'll clarify that.

        But there's no conspiracy about this at all. I have no interest in
        proving anything about Steiner's OTO 'membership'.


        > > I for one do focus on things Steiner wrote, which obviously don't
        line
        > > up with your ideas about him, but there you go.
        > > But I don't think anyone's disputing that his letters to Reuss
        etc
        > > aren't BY him. If you are, I'd surely like to know. ....
        > >
        >
        > *******Apparently you didn't see Joel's post giving the link to the
        web site
        > that settles the matter. So here it is again. It says there are no
        letters
        > from Steiner to this fellow.
        >
        >
        > http://www.defendingsteiner.com/articles/rs-reuss.php
        >
        >
        > Here's some excerpts from it:
        >
        > > "After decades of incomplete media reports and propaganda efforts
        by
        > > partial parties regarding Rudolf Steiner's alleged membership in
        Theodor Reuss'
        > > German lodge of the Ordo Templi Orientis, for the first time, the
        archive of
        > > Rudolf Steiner's probate opened its vault (for the book "Der
        Grosse Theodor
        > > Reuss Reader"), thereby giving historians the ammunition needed
        to finally put
        > > the matter to rest (extant are 4 letters of Reuss to Steiner and
        21 of Reuss to
        > > Marie von Sivers. Steiner's letters to Reuss are missing or never
        existed; 4
        > > drafts of Sivers to Reuss survive. Reproduced in "Der Grosse
        Theodor Reuss
        > > Reader" is the Contract, the Edict of Reuss to Steiner, and two
        letters
        > > concerning Franz Hartmann.)
        > > There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted anything
        from Theodor
        > > Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's permission to use the
        term
        > > "Misraim". There exists no evidence nor any documentation which
        made Steiner a member
        > > of the Ordo Templi Orientis."
        > Koenig, Peter-R. "Rudolf Steiner and Theodor Reuss" The Ordo Templi
        Orientis
        > > Phenomenon. 8 Jan 2004
        <http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm>.
        >
        > Steiner's commentary on the issue as written in his Autobiography
        is also
        > interesting:
        >
        > > Even in this sphere we broke with the ancient traditions. Our
        work was
        > > carried on as work must be carried on if one investigates in
        spiritual-content in
        > > an original manner according to the requirements of full clarity
        in the
        > > mind's experience. The fact that the starting-point for all sorts
        of slanders was
        > > found in certain attestations which Marie von Sievers and I
        signed in
        > > linking up with the historic Yarker institution means that, in
        order to concoct
        > > such slanders, people treated the absurd with the grimace of the
        serious. Our
        > > signatures were given as a “form.” The customary thing was
        thus preserved. And
        > > while we were giving our signatures, I said as clearly as
        possible: “This is
        > > all a formality, and the practice which I shall institute will
        take over
        > > nothing from the Yarker practice.”
        >
        > It is obviously easy to make the observation afterwards that it
        would have
        > been far more
        > > “discreet” not to link up with practices which could later be
        used by
        > > slanderers. But I would remark with all positiveness that, at the
        period of my
        > > life here under consideration, I was still one of those who
        assume uprightness,
        > > and not crooked ways, in the people with whom they have to do.
        Even
        > > spiritual perception did not alter at all this faith in men. This
        must not be misused
        > > for the purpose of investigating the intentions of one's fellow-
        men when
        > > this investigation is not desired by the man in question himself.
        In other cases
        > > the investigation of the inner nature of other souls remains a
        thing
        > > forbidden to the knower of the spirit; just as the unauthorized
        opening of a letter
        > > is something forbidden. And so one is related to men with whom
        one has to do
        > > in the same way as is any other person who has no knowledge of
        the spirit.
        > > But there is just this alternative â€" either to assume that
        others are
        > > straight-forward in their intentions until one has experienced
        the opposite, or else
        > > to be filled with sorrow as one views the entire world. A social
        co-operation
        > > with men is impossible for the latter mood, for such co-operation
        can be
        > > based only upon trust and not upon distrust.
        > Rudolf Steiner, The Course of My Life.
        >
        > *******This is a group for the study of Steiner and his
        anthroposophy.
        > Any further attempts to link him to extraneous and irrelevant other
        movements or
        > individuals for the purpose of implying their similarity, equality
        or even
        > that Steiner was derivative of them, will merely show that someone
        is not here
        > for the study of Steiner. They will then be invited to go elsewhere
        and start
        > their own group to study old rituals or secret societies or
        whatever it is they
        > really want to study.
        >
        > This thread is closed. New ones about Steiner and anthroposophy
        are
        > encouraged.
        >
        > -starman
      • LilOleMissy
        rhythm VS. routine question... I am a typically a lurker but I had an interesting conversation this evening that I would like some feedback on.Basically it
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 4, 2005

          rhythm VS. routine question...
          
            I am a typically a lurker but I had an interesting conversation this
          evening that I would like some feedback on.Basically it started as
          strengthening the will forces.My take being that through rhythm (among
          other things) this is possible.The argument then went somewhat
          Castaneda as far as "routine" being binding and therefore rendering
          one inflexible.
          
            This may seem at first glance to be semantics but i would still
          appreciate input.I should also point out that I (like many others)
          have come to Steiner through Waldorf education.I have a mothers
          perspective but believe that with my attempt to establish rhythm in
          the household we have all benefited.Thank you for any input.
          
          Leslie Russell
            
          Dear Leslie,

          I'm not sure I have the knowledge to respond properly to your interesting inquiry, plus the fact that I may be misinterpreting your question. Please let me hear should I be misinterpreting? :)

          It seems to me this may involve the Will Exercise of the six "basic exercises", which, as you so rightly state above, is to strengthen the Will Forces of the Soul. I'm glad you brought this point up, and especially so since I've never connected this with inflexibility, although I should have. Until or unless I learn better, I'll assume this involves the planning ahead of time to perform a definite action every day at a specific time? If so, I've always understood the point of this method is, among other things, to train the human Will so that one doesn't vascillate, put off, forget to do this or that or to simply be "weak-willed". If that is the point of this Will Exercise, then it would seem that one must adhere to a predetermined action each day. It seems to me this would be incapable of inducing inflexibility, assuming one does this exercise as Steiner outlined, i.e.   including it along with the other soul exercises which gives a well rounded Balance. Perhaps this is what is missing in our conversation here? Balance?

          In regard to using rhythm for this Will Exercise, assuming this is indeed the goal in question, I wonder what effect rhythm would have on strengthening the human will? It seems to me a rhythmic approach could leave one without a "set goal", so to say, but more of a vascillation and unsteadiness of the will forces, thereby defeating the purpose of the exercise. Am I confusing my interpretation of rhythm [e.g. weaving, undulating, changing, etc.] with what is actually a different interpretation of rhythm?

          This is interesting! In all honesty, I was hoping one of the more advanced members of our group would respond, but for what it's worth, let's give my muddled reply a hearing with any needed corrections?

          Blessings,

          Sheila

        • classiquepair
          ... Sure...seven lectures 15-25 November 1917. http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1855841622 1. Knowledge ofthe Supersensible and Riddles of the Human
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 5, 2005
            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, LilOleMissy <lilolemissy@s...> wrote:
            >

            > Classiquepair, would you be so kind as to post the
            > dates of these lectures? The Doppleganger...

            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, LilOleMissy <lilolemissy@s...> wrote:

            > Classiquepair, would you be so kind as to post the
            > dates of these lectures?

            Sure...seven lectures 15-25 November 1917.

            http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1855841622

            1. Knowledge ofthe Supersensible and Riddles of the Human Soul
            2. The Mystery of the Double: Geographic Medicine
            3. Behind the Scenes of External Events I
            4. Behind the Scenes of External Events II
            5. Individual Spirit Beings and the Constant Foundation of the Universe I

            6. Individual Spirit Beings and the Constant Foundation of the
            Universe II

            7. Individual Spirit Beings and the Constant Foundation of the
            Universe III
          • classiquepair
            ... It s funny about these nuts ...once they get silly notions in their head, those notions, as unimportant as they might be, develop a life of their own.
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 5, 2005
              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "bscaro" <bscaro@y...> wrote:
              > I do wonder who those 'nuts' might be, LOL.

              It's funny about these 'nuts'...once they get silly notions in their
              head, those notions, as unimportant as they might be, develop a life
              of their own.
            • LilOleMissy
              ... http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1855841622 ... Thank you for going to so much trouble. I do have the St. Gallen lectures, and feel the second of
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 5, 2005
                --- classiquepair <classiquepair@...> wrote:

                > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, LilOleMissy
                > <lilolemissy@s...> wrote:
                > >
                >
                > > Classiquepair, would you be so kind as to post the
                > > dates of these lectures? The Doppleganger...
                >
                > Sure...seven lectures 15-25 November 1917.
                >
                >
                http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1855841622
                >
                > 1. Knowledge ofthe Supersensible and Riddles of the
                > Human Soul
                > 2. The Mystery of the Double: Geographic Medicine
                > 3. Behind the Scenes of External Events I
                > 4. Behind the Scenes of External Events II
                > 5. Individual Spirit Beings and the Constant
                > Foundation of the Universe I
                >
                > 6. Individual Spirit Beings and the Constant
                > Foundation of the
                > Universe II
                >
                > 7. Individual Spirit Beings and the Constant
                > Foundation of the
                > Universe III

                Thank you for going to so much trouble. I do have the
                St. Gallen lectures, and feel the second of those two
                to be the most informative regarding the Double. This
                doesn't detract from the first, however, which is also
                amazing! Now I'll have to scrounge to see about the
                others in this series! It seems to me that more and
                more often I find "rearranged series" of lectures, and
                that keeps us on our toes!

                Cheers!
                Sheila


                This message is composed of 100% recycled electrons.
              • DoctorStarman@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/3/2005 2:35:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... *******I would say it s a question of consciousness and whether a pattern is internally or
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 5, 2005
                  In a message dated 6/3/2005 2:35:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, leslierussell1@... writes:

                  rhythm VS. routine question...

                    I am a typically a lurker but I had an interesting conversation this evening that I would like some feedback on.Basically it started as strengthening the will forces.My take being that through rhythm (among other things) this is possible.The argument then went somewhat Castaneda as far as "routine" being binding and therefore rendering one inflexible.

                    This may seem at first glance to be semantics but i would still appreciate input.I should also point out that I (like many others) have come to Steiner through Waldorf education.I have a mothers perspective but believe that with my attempt to establish rhythm in the household we have all benefited.Thank you for any input.

                  Leslie Russell



                  *******I would say it's a question of consciousness and whether a pattern is internally or externally motivated. If we follow routines imposed on us by our society, our jobs, etc., we become like robots. But when we choose to take up a sequence of actions voluntarily that nothing compels us to do----like meditating regularly or doing things to celebrate the festivals/seasons, or anything that the external world doesn't impose----then we gradually establish a rythm which we have CHOSEN to establish. That's not a robotic routine but rather an ordering of the etheric body.

                     The rythmic system, the middle one, is the weak link in modern-day man. This is why our thinking pole and willing pole are so easily disconnected. Anything done to consciously establish rythms is healthful.

                  -starman

                  http://www.DrStarman.com
                • bscaro
                  ... yep. that s why the correction of the stuff on amorc was necessary. but i thought we d ended this thread ?
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "classiquepair" <classiquepair@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "bscaro" <bscaro@y...> wrote:
                    > > I do wonder who those 'nuts' might be, LOL.
                    >
                    > It's funny about these 'nuts'...once they get silly notions in their
                    > head, those notions, as unimportant as they might be, develop a life
                    > of their own.

                    yep. that's why the correction of the stuff on amorc was necessary.
                    but i thought we'd ended this thread ?
                  • classiquepair
                    ... Not a problem for me. I speedo type.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, LilOleMissy <lilolemissy@s...> wrote:

                      > Thank you for going to so much trouble. I do have the
                      > St. Gallen lectures...

                      Not a problem for me. I speedo type.
                    • classiquepair
                      ... Obviously not. But let s talk Steiner. I posted a few threads here...what s your take the way Steiner uses the term moral impressions ?
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "bscaro" <bscaro@y...> wrote:

                        > yep. that's why the correction of the stuff on amorc was necessary.
                        > but i thought we'd ended this thread ?

                        Obviously not. But let's talk Steiner. I posted a few threads
                        here...what's your take the way Steiner uses the term 'moral impressions'?
                      • livinintheburbs
                        Hi all, I am new to the list and was going back through some of the posts to see what I could learn and saw this discussion of what Steiner means by moral
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 2, 2005
                          Hi all, I am new to the list and was going back through some of the
                          posts to see what I could learn and saw this discussion of what
                          Steiner means by moral impressions or moral feelings. The following
                          is from his primer How to Know Higher Worlds where he addresses this
                          topic.

                          "Just as the sun's rays vivify everything living, so does reverence
                          in the student vivify all feelings of the soul. It is not easy, at
                          first, to believe that feelings like reverence and respect have
                          anything to do with cognition. This is due to the fact that we are
                          inclined to set cognition aside as a faculty by itself — one that
                          stands in no relation to what otherwise occurs in the soul. In so
                          thinking we do not bear in mind that it is the soul which exercises
                          the faculty of cognition; and feelings are for the soul what food is
                          for the body. If we give the body stones in place of bread, its
                          activity will cease. It is the same with the soul. Veneration,
                          homage, devotion are like nutriment making it healthy and strong,
                          especially strong for the activity of cognition. Disrespect,
                          antipathy, underestimation of what deserves recognition, all exert a
                          paralyzing and withering effect on this faculty of cognition. For
                          the spiritually experienced this fact is visible in the aura. A soul
                          which harbors feelings of reverence and devotion produces a change
                          in its aura. Certain spiritual colorings, as they may be called,
                          yellow-red and brown-red in tone, vanish and are replaced by blue-
                          red tints. Thereby the cognitional faculty is ripened; it receives
                          intelligence of facts in its environment of which it had hitherto no
                          idea. Reverence awakens in the soul a sympathetic power through
                          which we attract qualities in the beings around us, which would
                          otherwise remain concealed."

                          "If the attention be frequently fixed on the phenomena of growing,
                          blooming and flourishing, a feeling remotely allied to the sensation
                          of a sunrise will ensue, while the phenomena of fading and decaying
                          will produce an experience comparable, in the same way, to the slow
                          rising of the moon on the horizon. Both these feelings are forces
                          which, when duly cultivated and developed to ever increasing
                          intensity, lead to the most significant spiritual results. A new
                          world is opened to the student if he systematically and deliberately
                          surrenders himself to such feelings. The soul-world, the so-called
                          astral plane, begins to dawn upon him."

                          I'm happy to find this list and hope to have some enlivening
                          discussions about Steiner with you all.

                          Regards, Anne N.
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