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Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"

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  • LilOleMissy
    I have always questioned everything encountered in my life, including Anthroposophical matters as Rudolf Steiner so very often emphasized we must do. Once
    Message 1 of 25 , May 7 5:26 PM
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      I have always questioned everything encountered in my life, including Anthroposophical matters as Rudolf Steiner so very often emphasized we must do. Once again I am questioning, and this time it is the below as well as the prior submission sent to our list by this individual. I find no veracity or merit to be found to substantiate anything this person has submitted to our list, and I question the forces working behind this person in attempting to sway that which we know from Steiner himself as well as elsewhere as truth.

      The first line is extremely telling yet meaningless: "Actually if you doubt we carry this transmission there are two references...." I might point out to the writer "references", and in particular, his references, do not lend any veracity whatsoever to anything supposedly supported in this, yet another, spurious attempt to either usurp or dispell anything connected with Rudolf Steiner and/or his work whatsoever. Rudolf Steiner clearly cited his sources for all to see; therefore I question outside "sources". Waite? I have read his works. He is a writer, and the same can also be said regarding Pat Zalewski and Felkin. It is painful to me to see Rudolf Steiner's name and work to which Rudolf Steiner gave his very life used in such a grievious way, leaving one to ponder on motive(s).  Possible motives for such actions seem to be usually found as financial in nature or perhaps usurptive, defammatory, egotistical, seeking domination, etc., etc.  I have no idea whatsoever what motives lie behind this particular "Alleged Steiner Rosicrucisn 'Transmission'", but I do intend to continue with Rudolf Steiner's work while ignoring yet another supposedly "knowledgeable" source. I would like to ask that this Brother Maui actually study Rudolf Steiner's work as well as his life.

      Sheila

      Frater Maui wrote:

      Actually if you doubt we carry this transmission there are two references

       

      The first comes from Waite, RA Gilbert published Waites personal letters in Ordo RR et AC. Waite states several times that Felkin was working with Steiner. While in Pat Zalewski’s introduction to his first book Secret Inner Order Rituals of the Golden Dawn there is another relation between Steiner and Felkin which is more detailed. Felkin’s own college used the transmission for his 6=5 and 7=4 degrees incorporating aspects of Steiners rituals into his own and circulated the material for those degrees. Pat’s own relationship with Felkin’s own college is well documented enough and I am his personal student and friend. All I have done is export the transmission, teachings and those aspects of the 6=5 and 7=4 as an independent teaching due to the fact that they are distinctly different from standard Golden Dawn methods. Steiner was however only a carrier of the transmission for a short time when he was elected head chairperson over the order. A full history of this also appears in Pats book. I thought it might be of interest to Anthroposophical students seeing that a lot of these teachings also influenced Steiner himself

       

      In LVX Frater Maui

       


      From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheeseandsalsa@...
      Sent: Saturday, 7 May 2005 3:08 PM
      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"

       

      Wow, well, that was interesting.............



    • Frater Maui
      Ok this is not what I intended for your forum so I m sorry we ve gotten off on the wrong foot. If you d give me a chance you d find that we are just out here
      Message 2 of 25 , May 7 7:02 PM
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        Ok this is not what I intended for your forum so I’m sorry we’ve gotten off on the wrong foot. If you’d give me a chance you’d find that we are just out here sharing material and have a lot of positive things to offer

         

        A lot of people try to peg the ego slant one someone when they stand out and do something different. Our group is not trying to ‘sway or use his Steiner’s name is a grievous way’ and I think that if people are not willing to stand outside the standard approach and way of thinking then they are just limited. This seems to boxed into what you consider Steiner to be rather than what he actually did behind the scenes. It’s clear you know of Pat Zalewski so I’ll quote his book

         

        “For a number of years he (Felkin) tried in vain until he contacted a group of Masons who were members of a special group that was reputed to have the cream of Europe ’s esoteric brains. This group had a variety of members, (and not all Masons) which incorporated a rotating chairmanship, of which Rudolph Steiner was chairman at the time of their first visit. Felkin expressed plea to be admitted to the council and was given a hearing. After subsequent meetings with Felkin the group agreed to give him associate membership with a person whom he nominated to be sent to Europe to attend the various meetings. These meetings and the beif openings and closing ceremonies that witnessed were the ones he related to his English Temples. ,,,,,, On a subsequent trip to Germany when the association to the order was ratified, Felkin returned with the ninth degree.”  (the account further states that Felkin returned to England with his Rosicrucian transmission.

         

        Now to add to this, Felkins 6th and 7th degree materials were derived from this Rosicrucian Order. Perhaps it is unfair to say that it’s a Steiner transmission as opposed to sayings it’s a German transmission. I shouldn’t have to show any post to demonstrate Zalewski’s relationship with the last members of Felkins Rosicrucian college who initiated him up to the 7th degree. Nick Farrel, also an author can assert that it all happened as he knew the same people and the head of the OTO at the time also helped in some of Pats ceremonies. The particular details of the 6=5 and 7=4 degrees are available on the internet, and both these rituals contain elements of Steiner’s Order.

         

        Now we are not leaning on Steiner in any way, its just a part of our historical account and we realize that this transmission goes back long before Steiner ever encountered it and before people go writing it off just because they haven’t heard of it skepticism is part of a healthy mind which is why I offered the references. You cant satisfy everyone though, offer no references, they’ll scream liar, offer references they’ll find something else. We are not offering this as an authority on Steiner’s works, just part of something he did for a short time and the ideas are sometimes different. Steiner’s contribution to the order however was important. Where theosophy and some other systems speculate a lot more than being actually practical, Steiner’s contribution and the materials he added to the society, such as the process-documents, are practical methods of occult working that are still important today

         

        We wont go into this any further, I just wanted to share something and those who want to find out more can go through the archives of our forum (rosicruciansonline.com)

         

        Peace to you all, Samuel

         


        From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LilOleMissy
        Sent: Sunday, 8 May 2005 10:26 AM
        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"

         

        I have always questioned everything encountered in my life, including Anthroposophical matters as Rudolf Steiner so very often emphasized we must do. Once again I am questioning, and this time it is the below as well as the prior submission sent to our list by this individual. I find no veracity or merit to be found to substantiate anything this person has submitted to our list, and I question the forces working behind this person in attempting to sway that which we know from Steiner himself as well as elsewhere as truth.

        The first line is extremely telling yet meaningless: "Actually if you doubt we carry this transmission there are two references...." I might point out to the writer "references", and in particular, his references, do not lend any veracity whatsoever to anything supposedly supported in this, yet another, spurious attempt to either usurp or dispell anything connected with Rudolf Steiner and/or his work whatsoever. Rudolf Steiner clearly cited his sources for all to see; therefore I question outside "sources". Waite? I have read his works. He is a writer, and the same can also be said regarding Pat Zalewski and Felkin. It is painful to me to see Rudolf Steiner's name and work to which Rudolf Steiner gave his very life used in such a grievious way, leaving one to ponder on motive(s).  Possible motives for such actions seem to be usually found as financial in nature or perhaps usurptive, defammatory, egotistical, seeking domination, etc., etc.  I have no idea whatsoever what motives lie behind this particular "Alleged Steiner Rosicrucisn 'Transmission'", but I do intend to continue with Rudolf Steiner's work while ignoring yet another supposedly "knowledgeable" source. I would like to ask that this Brother Maui actually study Rudolf Steiner's work as well as his life.

        Sheila

        Frater Maui wrote:

        Actually if you doubt we carry this transmission there are two references

         

        The first comes from Waite, RA Gilbert published Waites personal letters in Ordo RR et AC. Waite states several times that Felkin was working with Steiner. While in Pat Zalewski’s introduction to his first book Secret Inner Order Rituals of the Golden Dawn there is another relation between Steiner and Felkin which is more detailed. Felkin’s own college used the transmission for his 6=5 and 7=4 degrees incorporating aspects of Steiners rituals into his own and circulated the material for those degrees. Pat’s own relationship with Felkin’s own college is well documented enough and I am his personal student and friend. All I have done is export the transmission, teachings and those aspects of the 6=5 and 7=4 as an independent teaching due to the fact that they are distinctly different from standard Golden Dawn methods. Steiner was however only a carrier of the transmission for a short time when he was elected head chairperson over the order. A full history of this also appears in Pats book. I thought it might be of interest to Anthroposophical students seeing that a lot of these teachings also influenced Steiner himself

         

        In LVX Frater Maui

         


        From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheeseandsalsa@...
        Sent: Saturday, 7 May 2005 3:08 PM
        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"

         

        Wow, well, that was interesting.............

         




        Post to steiner@egroups.comSearch the archives of the group at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

        Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html

        ommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html




      • DoctorStarman@aol.com
        fraterm@picknowl.com.au writes: if you doubt we carry this transmission ... ******I doubt any transmission of anything through Steiner. That s a
        Message 3 of 25 , May 8 9:51 AM
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          fraterm@... writes:
          if you doubt we carry this transmission there are two references...


          ******I doubt any "transmission" of anything through Steiner. That's a transparent attempt to hijack his name and say Oh he was just repeating the same teachings some other guy had. He was repeating nothing.


          >> Waite states several times that Felkin was working with Steiner....


          *******Is that Arthur Edward Waite, whose face, as I recall, Crowley put on The Fool card of his Tarot deck? ;-) He was a competent but uninspired writer on minor occult matters who never had any direct insight as Steiner did, noe did he know anything about Steiner directly.
             Well, as I said before, the same could be said of Gurdjieff (stretching it a bit since he only met Steiner once), or Max Heindel, or Hermann Hesse----that "he was working with Steiner". But that's mere name dropping. Steiner met thousands of people. We know the ones who really worked with him---Carl Unger, Elizabeth Vreede, Guenther Wachsmuth, Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, and Eugen Kolisko, to name a few.

             Do you have a single quote from any of Steiner's thousands of lecture notes or letters where he mentioned a Mr. Felkin of New Zealand at all? I know of none.

              Steiner rejected Masonic-type secrecy totally from the start and repeatedly emphasized everything must now be public, so saying he 'initiated' some guy in secret would be, in my opinion, pure applesauce. Documentation of these claims has not yet been supplied.


          >>
          Felkin’s own college used the transmission for his 6=5 and 7=4 degrees incorporating aspects of Steiners rituals into his own...


          ******* And "Steiner's rituals" would be....? Nobody here knows of any! He gave out meditative exercises to develop clairvoyance, and publicly, not Masonic-type rituals. And what is this gentleman's "college"? The high school or college of Spiritual Science founded directly by Steiner uses no such rituals.


          >>>Steiner was however only a carrier of the transmission for a short time when he was elected head chairperson over the order...



          *******What alleged order are you claiming Steiner was ever the "chair" of? He seems to have left that fact out of his autobiography---- and all his lectures---- and every biographer of his seems to have missed anything about that in detailing his very public life, where his every movement was known by the very public circle around him for the last 25 years of his life.

             Dr. Steiner got his knowledge directly from the spiritual worlds, not from any masonic-type order in Germany in the early 20th century--- most of which, in fact, by that time were quite degenerate and later gave birth to the Nazi Party, by the way.



          >> I thought it might be of interest to

          Anthroposophical students seeing that a lot of these teachings also influenced Steiner himself
          In LVX Frater Maui

          *******The number of falsehoods here is too great to try to correct all of them, but this will hopefully correct a few: there is no Rosicrucian Order on earth that Steiner ever belonged to, he was not "transmitting" stuff from other people but arrived at his own direct insight, this knowledge cannot be "transmitted" by paper or rituals but must be gained by each individual in meditatively walking the spiritual path, the White Brotherhood that one contacts by walking this path is spiritual and not physical ---and many rites still pursued by Masonic-type orders actually have a harmful effect, delivering a person over to the being Steiner called Ahriman, as depicted clearly in his Mystery Plays.
              I second the suggestion that you read a few of Steiner's books and study his life if you'd like to participate in this group, as it is diametrically the opposite of what you're making it sound like without having studied.
              He was not an initiate of AMORC, the Freemasons, the Golden Dawn, or any such group but was initiated by spirit-beings whom anyone anywhere can contact, and he taught entirely new methods of doing so since the old methods are now harmful to Man in his present evolutionary state.
          -starman
          www.DrStarman.com
        • Frater Maui
          Dear misinformed, here s a post that I ve put on another forum Ok this is not what I intended for your forum so I m sorry we ve gotten off on the wrong foot.
          Message 4 of 25 , May 8 11:15 AM
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            Dear misinformed, here’s a post that I’ve put on another forum

             

            Ok this is not what I intended for your forum so I’m sorry we’ve gotten off on the wrong foot. If you’d give me a chance you’d find that we are just out here sharing material and have a lot of positive things to offer

             

            A lot of people try to peg the ego slant one someone when they stand out and do something different. Our group is not trying to ‘sway or use his Steiner’s name is a grievous way’ and I think that if people are not willing to stand outside the standard approach and way of thinking then they are just limited. This seems too boxed into what you consider Steiner to be rather than what he actually did behind the scenes. It’s clear most know of Pat Zalewski so I’ll quote his book

             

            “For a number of years he (Felkin) tried in vain until he contacted a group of Masons who were members of a special group that was reputed to have the cream of Europe ’s esoteric brains. This group had a variety of members, (and not all Masons) which incorporated a rotating chairmanship, of which Rudolph Steiner was chairman at the time of their first visit. Felkin expressed plea to be admitted to the council and was given a hearing. After subsequent meetings with Felkin the group agreed to give him associate membership with a person whom he nominated to be sent to Europe to attend the various meetings. These meetings and the beif openings and closing ceremonies that witnessed were the ones he related to his English Temples. ,,,,,, On a subsequent trip to Germany when the association to the order was ratified, Felkin returned with the ninth degree.”  (the account further states that Felkin returned to England with his Rosicrucian transmission. Note this book was published over twenty years ago, it was Secret Inner Order Rituals of the G.D)

             

            Now to add to this, Felkins 6th and 7th degree materials were derived from this Rosicrucian Order. Perhaps it is unfair to say that it’s a Steiner transmission as opposed to sayings it’s a German transmission. I shouldn’t have to show any post to demonstrate Zalewski’s relationship with the last members of Felkins Rosicrucian college who initiated him up to the 7th degree. Nick Farrel, also an author can assert that it all happened as he knew the same people and the head of the OTO at the time also helped in some of Pats ceremonies. The particular details of the 6=5 and 7=4 degrees are available on the internet, and both these rituals contain elements of Steiner’s Order.

             

            Now we are not leaning on Steiner in any way, its just a part of our historical account and we realize that this transmission goes back long before Steiner ever encountered it and before people go writing it off just because they haven’t heard of it skepticism is part of a healthy mind which is why I offered the references. You cant satisfy everyone though, offer no references, they’ll scream liar, offer references they’ll find something else. We are not offering this as an authority on Steiner’s works, just part of something he did for a short time and the ideas are sometimes different. Steiner’s contribution to the order however was important. Where theosophy and some other systems speculate a lot more than being actually practical, Steiner’s contribution and the materials he added to the society, such as the process-documents, are practical methods of occult working that are still important today

             

            We wont go into this any further, I just wanted to share something and those who want to find out more can go through the archives of our forum (rosicruciansonline.com)

             

            Peace to you all, Samuel

             

             


            From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DoctorStarman@...
            Sent: Monday, 9 May 2005 2:52 AM
            To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"

             

            fraterm@... writes:

            if you doubt we carry this transmission there are two references...




            ******I doubt any "transmission" of anything through Steiner. That's a transparent attempt to hijack his name and say Oh he was just repeating the same teachings some other guy had. He was repeating nothing.



            >> Waite states several times that Felkin was working with Steiner....




            *******Is that Arthur Edward Waite, whose face, as I recall, Crowley put on The Fool card of his Tarot deck? ;-) He was a competent but uninspired writer on minor occult matters who never had any direct insight as Steiner did, noe did he know anything about Steiner directly.
               Well, as I said before, the same could be said of Gurdjieff (stretching it a bit since he only met Steiner once), or Max Heindel, or Hermann Hesse----that "he was working with Steiner". But that's mere name dropping. Steiner met thousands of people. We know the ones who really worked with him---Carl Unger, Elizabeth Vreede, Guenther Wachsmuth, Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, and Eugen Kolisko, to name a few.

               Do you have a single quote from any of Steiner's thousands of lecture notes or letters where he mentioned a Mr. Felkin of New Zealand at all? I know of none.

                Steiner rejected Masonic-type secrecy totally from the start and repeatedly emphasized everything must now be public, so saying he 'initiated' some guy in secret would be, in my opinion, pure applesauce. Documentation of these claims has not yet been supplied.


            >>

            Felkin’s own college used the transmission for his 6=5 and 7=4 degrees incorporating aspects of Steiners rituals into his own...



            ******* And "Steiner's rituals" would be....? Nobody here knows of any! He gave out meditative exercises to develop clairvoyance, and publicly, not Masonic-type rituals. And what is this gentleman's "college"? The high school or college of Spiritual Science founded directly by Steiner uses no such rituals.



            >>>Steiner was however only a carrier of the transmission for a short time when he was elected head chairperson over the order...




            *******What alleged order are you claiming Steiner was ever the "chair" of? He seems to have left that fact out of his autobiography---- and all his lectures---- and every biographer of his seems to have missed anything about that in detailing his very public life, where his every movement was known by the very public circle around him for the last 25 years of his life.

               Dr. Steiner got his knowledge directly from the spiritual worlds, not from any masonic-type order in Germany in the early 20th century--- most of which, in fact, by that time were quite degenerate and later gave birth to the Nazi Party, by the way.



            >> I thought it might be of interest to

            Anthroposophical students seeing that a lot of these teachings also influenced Steiner himself
            In LVX Frater Maui



            *******The number of falsehoods here is too great to try to correct all of them, but this will hopefully correct a few: there is no Rosicrucian Order on earth that Steiner ever belonged to, he was not "transmitting" stuff from other people but arrived at his own direct insight, this knowledge cannot be "transmitted" by paper or rituals but must be gained by each individual in meditatively walking the spiritual path, the White Brotherhood that one contacts by walking this path is spiritual and not physical ---and many rites still pursued by Masonic-type orders actually have a harmful effect, delivering a person over to the being Steiner called Ahriman, as depicted clearly in his Mystery Plays.
                I second the suggestion that you read a few of Steiner's books and study his life if you'd like to participate in this group, as it is diametrically the opposite of what you're making it sound like without having studied.
                He was not an initiate of AMORC, the Freemasons, the Golden Dawn, or any such group but was initiated by spirit-beings whom anyone anywhere can contact, and he taught entirely new methods of doing so since the old methods are now harmful to Man in his present evolutionary state.
            -starman
            www.DrStarman.com


            Post to steiner@egroups.comSearch the archives of the group at:
            http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

            Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
            http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html

            ommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
            http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html




          • Pierre Gringoire
            I must say that I am in complete agreement with Sheila and Dr. Starman. The following is highly questionable: In 1897 Rudolf Steiner travelled to Berlin to
            Message 5 of 25 , May 8 2:57 PM
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              I must say that I am in complete agreement with Sheila and Dr. Starman.  The following is highly questionable:
               
              "In 1897 Rudolf Steiner travelled to Berlin to become Supreme Magus over the Grand Lodge there."
               
              It is quite possible that the person using the pseudonym 'Frater Maui' or 'Samuel' is unaware of the contentious nature of these remarks.  If so, he displays an ignorance of both Steiner and the circumstances of his life.  It would be highly surprising if any genuine Rosicrucian Order would fail to inform its members exactly why such remarks are controversial.  The exact motive behind this 'revelation' is as yet unclear.
               
              Pierre Gringiore

            • Frater Maui
              No Pierre, we are quite aware of Steiner s take on secret orders and the such as after he left the order he did indeed reject the society and would have
              Message 6 of 25 , May 8 8:19 PM
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                No Pierre, we are quite aware of Steiner’s take on secret orders and the such as after he left the order he did indeed reject the society and would have nothing to do with it and Pat Z should have some references to that. Again its only given for historical reference, I’m not sure if the title Supreme Magus is correct as they had another name for it also (ie another language) but SM is the standard to describe the head of an order. Waite left too many references to Steiner being in this society for a time and he was in just about every society during his era and knew everyone’s going on’s quite well. The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an umbrella group, it will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society came under its wings as well.

                 

                In LVX Samuel

                 


                From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pierre Gringoire
                Sent: Monday, 9 May 2005 7:57 AM
                To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"

                 

                I must say that I am in complete agreement with Sheila and Dr. Starman.  The following is highly questionable:

                 

                "In 1897 Rudolf Steiner travelled to Berlin to become Supreme Magus over the Grand Lodge there."

                 

                It is quite possible that the person using the pseudonym 'Frater Maui' or 'Samuel' is unaware of the contentious nature of these remarks.  If so, he displays an ignorance of both Steiner and the circumstances of his life.  It would be highly surprising if any genuine Rosicrucian Order would fail to inform its members exactly why such remarks are controversial.  The exact motive behind this 'revelation' is as yet unclear.

                 

                Pierre Gringiore

                 



                Post to steiner@egroups.comSearch the archives of the group at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

                Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html

                ommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html




              • Pierre Gringoire
                ... This is the second time you have named A.E Waite as a source for these assertions. You haven t provided provided the references to back them up. I think
                Message 7 of 25 , May 9 11:02 AM
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                  > Waite left too many references to Steiner being in this society for a time
                  > and he was in just about every society during his era and knew everyone’s
                  > going on’s quite well.
                   
                  This is the second time you have named A.E Waite as a source for these assertions.  You haven't provided provided the references to back them up.  I think it's about time you did.
                   
                  > The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an umbrella group,
                  > it will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society came under
                  > its wings as well.
                   
                  Believe me, no one is getting upset.  This kind of attack on Steiner's integrity is not new.  The method is rather well-worn.
                   
                  I now think we can safely discount 'naivity' as a motive.
                   
                • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                  In a message dated 5/9/2005 1:07:54 PM Central Standard Time, gringoire@ukuconnect.com writes: The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 9 12:12 PM
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                    In a message dated 5/9/2005 1:07:54 PM Central Standard Time, gringoire@... writes:
                    The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an umbrella group,
                    > it will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society came under
                    > its wings as well.
                    Why would it drive us nuts?  We are all pursuing Truths here.  My advice would be not create false assertions.  I am not attacking neither.  I don't think there is anybody here that has a monopoly on truth or that will claim anthroposophy as the "know all".  We are still waiting for your references btw.....
                  • DoctorStarman@aol.com
                    In a message dated 5/8/2005 11:20:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... *******To assert that Madame Blavatsky s Theosophical Society, which fought pitched battles
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 9 8:33 PM
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                      In a message dated 5/8/2005 11:20:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fraterm@... writes:

                      No Pierre, we are quite aware of Steiner’s take on secret orders and the such as after he left the order he did indeed reject the society and would have nothing to do with it and Pat Z should have some references to that. Again its only given for historical reference, I’m not sure if the title Supreme Magus is correct as they had another name for it also (ie another language) but SM is the standard to describe the head of an order. Waite left too many references to Steiner being in this society for a time and he was in just about every society during his era and knew everyone’s going on’s quite well. The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an umbrella group, it will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society came under its wings as well....



                      *******To assert that Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society, which fought pitched battles with all Masonic-type groups for the same reason as Steiner, that she believed that everything must be revealed openly----and for which practice of revealing their secrets, Blavatsky herself suffered a lot----shows even less understanding of it than of the Anthroposophical Society on your part.

                          There was no order Steiner was a head of
                      which he later rejected; he was a loner in the late 1890s in Berlin except for the many literary figures he associated with. Neither he nor any of his biographers have ever said anything about any Order. He described a SPIRITUAL being tutoring him at this time, whom he called the Master.

                         Once more, if you are interested in the study of Steiner and his anthroposophy you are welcome here. You are not, when you talk about some stuff which is completely foreign to him and assert it was his source, implying superior knowledge, which might account for not having heard one single question from you. That would seem to indicate you just want to spam this list with ads for your own list, which you are promoting by the aid of definite falsehoods about Steiner. Stop these baseless assertions and show some interest in what we're about or you will be removed.

                      -starman




                      In LVX Samuel




                      From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pierre Gringoire
                      Sent: Monday, 9 May 2005 7:57 AM
                      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"



                       


                      I must say that I am in complete agreement with Sheila and Dr. Starman.  The following is highly questionable:


                       



                      "In 1897 Rudolf Steiner travelled to Berlin to become Supreme Magus over the Grand Lodge there."


                       



                      It is quite possible that the person using the pseudonym 'Frater Maui' or 'Samuel' is unaware of the contentious nature of these remarks.  If so, he displays an ignorance of both Steiner and the circumstances of his life.  It would be highly surprising if any genuine Rosicrucian Order would fail to inform its members exactly why such remarks are controversial.  The exact motive behind this 'revelation' is as yet unclear.


                       



                      Pierre Gringiore


                       






                      www.DrStarman.com
                    • DoctorStarman@aol.com
                      I ... *******There won t be any, I am sure. ;-) To clear matters up a bit for people trying to follow this: the old Initiation-religions of ancient Greece and
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 9 9:22 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I

                        The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an umbrella group,
                        >it will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society came under
                        >its wings as well.


                        Cheeseandsalsa@... writes:
                        Why would it drive us nuts?  We are all pursuing Truths here.  My advice would be not create false assertions.  I am not attacking neither.  I don't think there is anybody here that has a monopoly on truth or that will claim anthroposophy as the "know all".  We are still waiting for your references btw.....


                        *******There won't be any, I am sure. ;-)

                            To clear matters up a bit for people trying to follow this: the old Initiation-religions of ancient Greece and Rome went underground when a somewhat distorted version of Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire, and they continued their initiation-rituals in secret: this is the origin of the Freemasons and similar secret societies. Closer to our modern era, in about the 12th and 13th centuries, there was an extraordinary being named Christian Rosenkreutz who founded a new type of secret society, needed because Man's consciousness had changed so much that the old rituals were no longer working. This was the Rosicrucians, who sought to fuse science and religion. The master of this Order was a member of what is known as the "Great White Brotherhood", meaning he took on a body as needed ( as did St. Germain, Babaji, etc.) --- and the guiding spirits of the organization were just that----spirits. They had no centers in the material world but rather were what Isaac Newton called the "Invisible College", beings that could work from the astral world with any who earnestly sought their aid. Some people under their influence wrote the documents of "Rosicrucianism" about 1600---the "Chemycal Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz", "Fama", etc. People reading these documents proclaiming the existence of this new movement sought the Rosicrucian Order all over Europe; but it did not exist in the physical world, so nothing was found that way. Rather, people who had no contact with any Masonic-type secret society or its hidden rituals, like shoemaker-mystic Jacob Boehme, independently wrote treatises in Rosicrucianism (meaning a spiritual path starting from scientific thinking).

                           Now, NONE of this from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries has ANYTHING to do with the various so-called "Rosicrucian Orders" set up in the 20th century by dilettantes like Steiner copycat Max Heindel, or the other guys in California who created the one that advertises in the supermarket tabloids. These people have made a big game out of pretending to be the "transmitters of ancient Rosicrucian knowledge" ---some have even sued each other over which one is the "Real McCoy"! The answer is that none of them are: they are all modern creations by people who just read the Rosicrucian documents and wanted to make up their own group and then perhaps claim they were descended from the Rosicrucians of bygone eras---- rather like people are scrambling to claim to be the "real American Indian Shamans" now (when shamanism died out long ago due to the evolution of consciousness), or like how the Masons claimed to be descended from the Egyptian pyramid-builders (when it's demonstrable that their Order went back no further than the 12th century).

                           Steiner, on the other hand, met Christian Rosenkreutz spiritually and was a servant of the real, non-physical Rosicrucian Order, which is not located in Australia, New Zealand, Tibet, India, Egypt, Persia, Africa, an Indian reservation, Sedona, or anywhere else material one cares to imagine. ;-)  He gave out a 'Rosicrucian' path of attaining spirit-knowledge that is controlled scientifically, starting with knowing nature and progressing to the direct perception of the Spirit behind it. It has NO relation to Masonic-type secrecy or rituals, Order of the Golden Dawn-type phony mystification and 'grades', or the degenerate remains of old secret societies. In fact, Steiner was made famous by many Masons who found he had the understanding of their Order which its leaders no longer even had----just as he grasped the Christ Mystery in a way the churches no longer do.

                           There is no need to join any order anywhere on earth to walk this 'rosicrucian' spiritual path. You rise from grade to grade through application of spirit-knowledge, in which you must be your own guide, as there is no longer any Order on earth where initiates are so highly evolved---- as they were in pre-Christian times---- that they can bring you forward by doing rituals, or even tell where you are at in your development and what "grade" you need to move to next. These rituals, like the Christian rite of baptism, are now merely tokens of procedures that once had a powerful effect when we were in a former state of consciousness, before our modern era and modern self-consciousness. They do not work on modern men any more than it is healthy for us to submerge our wills to blindly follow a 'guru'.

                          The Anthroposophic Society is an open, public society where anyone can pursue this knowledge. Rudolf Steiner created no Order where people do secret rituals, and in fact he lectured repeatedly that the time for such orders was over. The Theosophical Society was destroyed by fakes claiming to have higher, more esoteric knowledge than anyone else (e.g., C. W. Leadbeater), whose claims were based on secret rites so of course they could not be verified. All of this is anathema to us. Everything in spiritual science is out in the open, a "revealed secret" as Steiner used to quote Goethe's phrase. It is all published, but you must awaken the dormant powers of your own soul and spirit to be able to perceive for yourself. There is no need to go here or there or undergo this or that ritual to do so; that all just leads you away from the Path. The Brothers of the Rosy Cross are all around us spiritually and ready to give help to all who set out on the 'rosicrucian' path described by Steiner in his books and lectures. All we need do is apply what Steiner gave out.

                        -starman
                        www.DrStarman.com
                      • kathy
                        ... an umbrella ... society came ... My advice ... neither. I don t ... will claim ... references ... the old ... when a somewhat ... of the Roman ... this is
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 10 11:28 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, DoctorStarman@a... wrote:
                          > I
                          >
                          > > >> The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also
                          an umbrella
                          > >> group,
                          > >> >it will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical
                          society came
                          > >> under
                          > >> >its wings as well.
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > > Cheeseandsalsa@a... writes:
                          > > Why would it drive us nuts? We are all pursuing Truths here.
                          My advice
                          > > would be not create false assertions. I am not attacking
                          neither. I don't
                          > > think there is anybody here that has a monopoly on truth or that
                          will claim
                          > > anthroposophy as the "know all". We are still waiting for your
                          references
                          > > btw.....
                          > >
                          >
                          > *******There won't be any, I am sure. ;-)
                          >
                          > To clear matters up a bit for people trying to follow this:
                          the old
                          > Initiation-religions of ancient Greece and Rome went underground
                          when a somewhat
                          > distorted version of Christianity was made the official religion
                          of the Roman
                          > Empire, and they continued their initiation-rituals in secret:
                          this is the
                          > origin of the Freemasons and similar secret societies. Closer to
                          our modern era, in
                          > about the 12th and 13th centuries, there was an extraordinary
                          being named
                          > Christian Rosenkreutz who founded a new type of secret society,
                          needed because
                          > Man's consciousness had changed so much that the old rituals were
                          no longer
                          > working. This was the Rosicrucians, who sought to fuse science and
                          religion. The
                          > master of this Order was a member of what is known as the "Great
                          White
                          > Brotherhood", meaning he took on a body as needed ( as did St.
                          Germain, Babaji, etc.)
                          > --- and the guiding spirits of the organization were just that----
                          spirits.
                          > They had no centers in the material world but rather were what
                          Isaac Newton
                          > called the "Invisible College", beings that could work from the
                          astral world with
                          > any who earnestly sought their aid. Some people under their
                          influence wrote the
                          > documents of "Rosicrucianism" about 1600---the "Chemycal Wedding
                          of Christian
                          > Rosenkreutz", "Fama", etc. People reading these documents
                          proclaiming the
                          > existence of this new movement sought the Rosicrucian Order all
                          over Europe; but
                          > it did not exist in the physical world, so nothing was found that
                          way. Rather,
                          > people who had no contact with any Masonic-type secret society or
                          its hidden
                          > rituals, like shoemaker-mystic Jacob Boehme, independently wrote
                          treatises in
                          > Rosicrucianism (meaning a spiritual path starting from scientific
                          thinking).
                          >
                          > Now, NONE of this from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries has
                          ANYTHING to
                          > do with the various so-called "Rosicrucian Orders" set up in the
                          20th century
                          > by dilettantes like Steiner copycat Max Heindel, or the other guys
                          in
                          > California who created the one that advertises in the supermarket
                          tabloids. These
                          > people have made a big game out of pretending to be
                          the "transmitters of ancient
                          > Rosicrucian knowledge" ---some have even sued each other over
                          which one is the
                          > "Real McCoy"! The answer is that none of them are: they are all
                          modern
                          > creations by people who just read the Rosicrucian documents and
                          wanted to make up
                          > their own group and then perhaps claim they were descended from
                          the Rosicrucians
                          > of bygone eras---- rather like people are scrambling to claim to
                          be the "real
                          > American Indian Shamans" now (when shamanism died out long ago due
                          to the
                          > evolution of consciousness), or like how the Masons claimed to be
                          descended from
                          > the Egyptian pyramid-builders (when it's demonstrable that their
                          Order went back
                          > no further than the 12th century).
                          >
                          > Steiner, on the other hand, met Christian Rosenkreutz
                          spiritually and was
                          > a servant of the real, non-physical Rosicrucian Order, which is
                          not located in
                          > Australia, New Zealand, Tibet, India, Egypt, Persia, Africa, an
                          Indian
                          > reservation, Sedona, or anywhere else material one cares to
                          imagine. ;-) He gave
                          > out a 'Rosicrucian' path of attaining spirit-knowledge that is
                          controlled
                          > scientifically, starting with knowing nature and progressing to
                          the direct
                          > perception of the Spirit behind it. It has NO relation to Masonic-
                          type secrecy or
                          > rituals, Order of the Golden Dawn-type phony mystification
                          and 'grades', or the
                          > degenerate remains of old secret societies. In fact, Steiner was
                          made famous by
                          > many Masons who found he had the understanding of their Order
                          which its leaders
                          > no longer even had----just as he grasped the Christ Mystery in a
                          way the
                          > churches no longer do.
                          >
                          > There is no need to join any order anywhere on earth to walk
                          this
                          > 'rosicrucian' spiritual path. You rise from grade to grade through
                          application of
                          > spirit-knowledge, in which you must be your own guide, as there is
                          no longer any
                          > Order on earth where initiates are so highly evolved---- as they
                          were in
                          > pre-Christian times---- that they can bring you forward by doing
                          rituals, or even
                          > tell where you are at in your development and what "grade" you
                          need to move to
                          > next. These rituals, like the Christian rite of baptism, are now
                          merely tokens
                          > of procedures that once had a powerful effect when we were in a
                          former state
                          > of consciousness, before our modern era and modern self-
                          consciousness. They do
                          > not work on modern men any more than it is healthy for us to
                          submerge our
                          > wills to blindly follow a 'guru'.
                          >
                          > The Anthroposophic Society is an open, public society where
                          anyone can
                          > pursue this knowledge. Rudolf Steiner created no Order where
                          people do secret
                          > rituals, and in fact he lectured repeatedly that the time for such
                          orders was
                          > over. The Theosophical Society was destroyed by fakes claiming to
                          have higher,
                          > more esoteric knowledge than anyone else (e.g., C. W. Leadbeater),
                          whose claims
                          > were based on secret rites so of course they could not be
                          verified. All of this
                          > is anathema to us. Everything in spiritual science is out in the
                          open, a
                          > "revealed secret" as Steiner used to quote Goethe's phrase. It is
                          all published,
                          > but you must awaken the dormant powers of your own soul and spirit
                          to be able
                          > to perceive for yourself. There is no need to go here or there or
                          undergo this
                          > or that ritual to do so; that all just leads you away from the
                          Path. The
                          > Brothers of the Rosy Cross are all around us spiritually and ready
                          to give help to
                          > all who set out on the 'rosicrucian' path described by Steiner in
                          his books
                          > and lectures. All we need do is apply what Steiner gave out.
                          >
                          > -starman
                          > www.DrStarman.com

                          Thank you Starman for clearing up the confusion. I have always
                          believed that we don't need a church or a guru to be on a spiritual
                          path. Egotism often gets in the way of truth being told corrrectly.I
                          think many people are so stuck in the material world that it is
                          difficult for them to seek knowlegde independently. Instead, they
                          seek out evangelical churches, ashrams,and bogus rosicrucian orders
                          to tell them how they are "supposed" to experience the spiritual
                          realm.
                        • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                          Starman, thanks to all the wise head s of kings among us.
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 10 6:19 PM
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                            Starman, thanks to all the wise head's of kings among us.
                          • Im Hotep
                            ... umbrella group,it will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society came under its wings as well.
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 21 9:07 AM
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                              DoctorStarman wrote:
                              >>The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an
                              umbrella group,it will again drive you nuts to hear that the
                              Theosophical society came under its wings as well.<<

                              Greetings -

                              Do you by chance know the name of that Order that Steiner chaired?

                              mark
                            • DoctorStarman@aol.com
                              In a message dated 5/21/2005 12:08:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... *******There was no such Order ever chaired by Dr. Steiner. -starman
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 21 7:28 PM
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                                In a message dated 5/21/2005 12:08:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FraterImHotep@... writes:

                                >>The order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an
                                umbrella group,it will again drive you nuts to hear that the
                                Theosophical society came under its wings as well.<<

                                Greetings -

                                Do you by chance know the name of that Order that Steiner chaired?

                                mark


                                *******There was no such Order ever chaired by Dr. Steiner.          -starman
                              • bscaro
                                Hi, I ve just recently joined. I am interested in the early days of Steiner and his relationship to occult type groups. Interesting thread. ... Crowley put
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 23 6:19 AM
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                                  Hi, I've just recently joined.

                                  I am interested in the early days of Steiner and his relationship
                                  to 'occult' type groups.

                                  Interesting thread.

                                  >
                                  > *******Is that Arthur Edward Waite, whose face, as I recall,
                                  Crowley put on
                                  > The Fool card of his Tarot deck? ;-)


                                  This seems a little unfair. And are you saying that you regard
                                  Crowley as a credible judge of character, compared to Waite ?


                                  [[He was a competent but uninspired writer
                                  > on minor occult matters ]]

                                  He was something more than that. Despite his somewhat turgid style,
                                  he was a very influential occult writer, and was of course more
                                  widely influential due to his role in the creation of the Rider-Waite
                                  Tarot drawn by Pamela Coleman-Smith.



                                  [[ Do you have a single quote from any of Steiner's thousands of
                                  lecture
                                  > notes or letters where he mentioned a Mr. Felkin of New Zealand at
                                  all? I know of
                                  > none.
                                  >
                                  > Steiner rejected Masonic-type secrecy totally from the start
                                  and
                                  > repeatedly emphasized everything must now be public, so saying
                                  he 'initiated' some guy
                                  > in secret would be, in my opinion, pure applesauce. Documentation
                                  of these
                                  > claims has not yet been supplied.
                                  >
                                  >

                                  He
                                  > gave out meditative exercises to develop clairvoyance, and
                                  publicly, not
                                  > Masonic-type rituals. And what is this gentleman's "college"? The
                                  high school or
                                  > college of Spiritual Science founded directly by Steiner uses no
                                  such rituals.]]



                                  On the essay on this area on his site, debunking the old myth that
                                  Steiner was an OTO member, PR Koenig states:

                                  'For the setting up of his own E.S., Steiner wants to link with
                                  symbolic-ritual effects of existing masonic traditions, for "absolute
                                  truthfulness and maintenance of continuity".'

                                  I am not sure of the actual words Steiner used, but if this
                                  paraphrasing is accurate, it dos suggest that he wanted some
                                  connection with the ritual of Masonry at least.





                                  [[ Dr. Steiner got his knowledge directly from the spiritual worlds,
                                  not from
                                  > any masonic-type order in Germany in the early 20th century]]


                                  That is as may be, but it does seem that he wanted a connection.

                                  Steiner writes to Marie Sivers on 30 November 1905 '... We have to
                                  deal with "a framework" only and not with more [substance] in the
                                  reality.'

                                  The framework I think would include the secrecy, as it's fairly
                                  central to Freemasonry.

                                  If Steiner acknowledges here that he will deal with the 'framework'
                                  then it is hard to argue that he totally rejects Masonic-type secrecy
                                  from the start.

                                  Indeed he seems to accept it, albeit reluctantly and for his own
                                  purpose.


                                  --- most of which,
                                  > in fact, by that time were quite degenerate and later gave birth to
                                  the Nazi
                                  > Party, by the way.

                                  Can you substantiate the degeneracy in 'most' Masonic orders ?

                                  I have only heard allegations about Reuss himself, who was on the
                                  fringes of Masonry at best, and hardly typical of Masonry.

                                  But again, how did they they gave birth to the Nazi Party ? - which I
                                  understand persecuted Freemasons.

                                  Best regards

                                  Ben
                                • Pierre Gringoire
                                  ... Ben is quite right; Steiner did not take a wholly negative view of Freemasonry. In the three lecture cycles published under the title The Temple Legend ,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 25 10:25 AM
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                                    > If Steiner acknowledges here that he will deal with
                                    > the 'framework' then it is hard to argue that he
                                    > totally rejects Masonic-type secrecy from the start.
                                     
                                     

                                    Ben is quite right; Steiner did not take a wholly negative view of Freemasonry.  In the three lecture cycles published under the title "The Temple Legend", he makes this quite clear.  Furthermore, neither did he take a wholly negative view to the other occult brotherhoods in existence at the time.  In the lecture cycle "The Occult Movement in the Nineteenth Century" he states that those who resisted the publication of occult knowledge did so out of a deep sense of responsibility.

                                     

                                    The point about the discussion is not whether such brotherhoods existed (or still exist), nor even what Steiner's views of them were, but whether Steiner was himself being secretly guided by them.  That is what lies at the heart of the assertion made by Samuel.

                                     

                                    I have not yet been able to decide whether the 'Rosicrucians Online' is merely a money making venture -- their website declares that they offer their wisdom for much less than other similar organisations (a bargain!) -- or whether they are being used by one of the aforesaid brotherhoods to slur Steiner by pretending to champion him.

                                     

                                    We are still waiting for Samuel's promised references.  I have no doubt such references exist, but would prefer to read them, and to judge their veracity for myself, before making any further comment.

                                     

                                     

                                    N.B.  It is worth noting that C.G.Harrison, in the lecture cycle "The Transcendental Universe" (published 1894), refers to three distinct brotherhoods in operation at the time.  The terms he used were, I think, deliberately vague.  There were the "Conservatives", who sought to limit what was to be made public; the "Liberals" who saw the need for publication, and the "Brotherhood of the Shadow" who were mostly, but not exclusively, Jesuits.


                                     
                                  • DoctorStarman@aol.com
                                    bscaro@yahoo.com writes: ... *******Well, in his autobiography, Steiner says he was aware of Theosophists but was not particularly drawn to them until after
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 25 9:44 PM
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                                      bscaro@... writes:

                                      I am interested in the early days of Steiner and his relationship
                                      to 'occult' type groups. 



                                      *******Well, in his autobiography, Steiner says he was aware of Theosophists but was not particularly drawn to them until after he underwent initiation about the turn of the century. Relevant to this thread, he did not belong to any Masonic, Rosicrucian or other lodge or order in this world, and did not base what he had to say on any of them, but rather on direct perception of the spiritual worlds and the Great White Brotherhood there, to whom anyone can apply for initaiation anywhere at any time. His knowledge came directly from the spiritual worlds and was not derived from any occult group: in fact, from his direct knowledge he was able to inform these groups of their many errors.



                                      >Arthur Edward Waite, whose face, as I recall, Crowley put on The Fool card of his Tarot deck? ;-)


                                      This seems a little unfair.  And are you saying that you regard
                                      Crowley as a credible judge of character, compared to Waite ? 


                                      *******I'd say both were dabblers who read books and then engaged in mere speculation on what they read ---- or, even worse, in Crowley's case, pretended to know what they actually didn't. Neither were in Steiner's league.




                                      [[He was a competent but uninspired writer on minor occult matters ]]

                                      He was something more than that.  Despite his somewhat turgid style,
                                      he was a very influential occult writer, and was of course more
                                      widely influential due to his role in the creation of the Rider-Waite
                                      Tarot drawn by Pamela Coleman-Smith. 



                                      *******Which began the corruption of the Arcana and the obscuring of their symbols, a process completely finished now with the hundreds of decks on the market totally disconnected from the original Kabbalistic source of what Steiner in lectures called the "Book of Thoth" ---- as it can still be seen, for instance, in the old Marseilles deck. For example, Key #1, The Juggler, has the Hebrew letter Aleph turned into a man's head and arms in a lemniscate pattern in the original, but this was completely distorted by Waite; Key #13 (never called "Death", just #13) had a half-flesh, half-skeleton figure holding a scythe in such a way that arms and scythe make the glyph of Saturn, but Waite's image completely destroys this. Steiner referred many times to the originals of the Major Arcana coming from Egypt as 22 plates with geometrical symbols: Schure points out in his Great Initiates there were once 22 large metal plates that stood in the Grand Gallery of the Great Pyramid (the socket holes that used to hold them are still there), signifying the stages of initation leading up to the King's Chamber. The semi-legendary Egyptian Moses took and used these to create the Hebrew alphabet. None of the games people play with the Tarot symbols now contribute much to seeing the original 22 forms as they exist in the etheric world when the sounds are spoken, or understanding them. Eurythmy does. Perhaps Brother Ron could tell us his thoughts on Kabbalah and Tarot.



                                      >
                                      >   Steiner rejected Masonic-type secrecy totally from the start
                                      and repeatedly emphasized everything must now be public....
                                      He gave out meditative exercises to develop clairvoyance, and
                                      publicly, not Masonic-type rituals..... The
                                      high school or college of Spiritual Science founded directly by Steiner uses no
                                      such rituals.]]



                                      On the essay on this area on his site, debunking the old myth that
                                      Steiner was an OTO member, PR Koenig states:

                                      'For the setting up of his own E.S., Steiner wants to link with
                                      symbolic-ritual effects of existing masonic traditions, for "absolute
                                      truthfulness and maintenance of continuity".'

                                      I am not sure of the actual words Steiner used, but if this
                                      paraphrasing is accurate, it dos suggest that he wanted some
                                      connection with the ritual of Masonry at least.





                                      *******But there were no masonic-type rites in Steiner's first "ES" (esoteric school) in Berlin (see Guidance in Esoteric Training), and once more, there are no secret or masonic-type rituals in the Anthroposophical Society. The spiritual realities that once were pictured in Masonic rite-plays were given entirely new form in Steiner's Mystery Plays, however, but all out in the open.




                                      [[ Dr. Steiner got his knowledge directly from the spiritual worlds,
                                      not from any masonic-type order in Germany in the early 20th century]]


                                      That is as may be, but it does seem that he wanted a connection. 
                                      Steiner writes to Marie Sivers on 30 November 1905  '... We have to
                                      deal with "a framework" only and not with more [substance] in the
                                      reality.' 
                                      The framework I think would include the secrecy, as it's fairly
                                      central to Freemasonry.
                                      If Steiner acknowledges here that he will deal with the 'framework'
                                      then it is hard to argue that he totally rejects Masonic-type secrecy
                                      from the start. 
                                      Indeed he seems to accept it, albeit reluctantly and for his own
                                      purpose.



                                      *******That's quite a lot to read into a dozen words from one of Steiner's letters that don't even mention Masonry or anything remotely similar. No idea how you're drawing those conclusions from a few words, but it contradicts everything Steiner said and did.



                                      --- most of which,
                                      >in fact, by that time were quite degenerate and later gave birth to
                                      the Nazi Party, by the way.

                                      Can you substantiate the degeneracy in 'most' Masonic orders ?
                                      I have only heard allegations about Reuss himself, who was on the
                                      fringes of Masonry at best, and hardly typical of Masonry. 
                                      But again, how did they they gave birth to the Nazi Party ? - which I
                                      understand persecuted Freemasons.


                                      *******Just as they burned down the Goetheanum and wanted to kill Steiner----they didn't want any competition.
                                          After the defeat of the World War, the old Masonic leaders fell into disrepute, since their class had lost the war---- and in the chaos of 1919-1923, some quite loathsome characters started splinter groups filled with anti-Semitism and very low or "left-hand" occultism. One of these was behind the NSDWP which became the Nazi Party. Not everything Trevor Ravenscroft wrote in "The Spear of Destiny" is factual, but neither is it all made up, for instance Karl Hauschofer and the Thule Group, the ritual use of peyote, etc. Steiner had nothing to do with these black magic groups and in fact was openly warning against them at the end of his life. They had nothing to do with his impulse.

                                      -starman
                                    • bscaro
                                      [[ Relevant to this thread, he did not belong to any ... A distinction is necessary here. Belonging to an order is not the same thing as receiving a
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 26 9:19 AM
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                                        [[ Relevant to this thread, he did not belong to any
                                        > Masonic, Rosicrucian or other lodge or order in this world, ]]

                                        A distinction is necessary here.

                                        Belonging to an order is not the same thing as receiving a
                                        transmission. One may receive a transmission from an individual or
                                        group without joining that group. One might then go on to found
                                        one's own order, to do something quite different [as Steiner did] or
                                        perhaps do nothing at all.

                                        Critically, reception of an R+C transmission *does not mean* that you
                                        are in any way bound to receive or propagate the teachings of the
                                        group or individual who passed you the transmission.

                                        The neo-Rosicrucian groups of the early 20th century were all founded
                                        on connections to individuals or other groups, but typically
                                        developed their own teachings, either from their own work or by
                                        synthesising and copying from others.

                                        An example. Lewis of AMORC also claimed connection with the Great
                                        White Brotherhood himself. Obviously he came to it via a different
                                        route than Steiner, having received transmissions or recognition from
                                        two sources and then synthesising his own group's teachings from a
                                        variety of sources largely unrelated to the teachings of those
                                        sources.


                                        [[and did not base
                                        > what he had to say on any of them, but rather on direct perception
                                        of the
                                        > spiritual worlds and the Great White Brotherhood there, to whom
                                        anyone can apply
                                        > for initaiation anywhere at any time. ]]


                                        As above, just because a transmission is received does not mean that
                                        one can necessarily identify features of the transmitter's teachings
                                        in those of the receiver of the transmission.



                                        >
                                        [[> *******But there were no masonic-type rites in Steiner's
                                        first "ES" (esoteric
                                        > school) in Berlin (see Guidance in Esoteric Training), and once
                                        more, there
                                        > are no secret or masonic-type rituals in the Anthroposophical
                                        Society. The
                                        > spiritual realities that once were pictured in Masonic rite-plays
                                        were given
                                        > entirely new form in Steiner's Mystery Plays, however, but all out
                                        in the open.
                                        >
                                        >

                                        *******That's quite a lot to read into a dozen words from one of
                                        Steiner's
                                        > letters that don't even mention Masonry or anything remotely
                                        similar. No idea
                                        > how you're drawing those conclusions from a few words, but it
                                        contradicts
                                        > everything Steiner said and did.]]


                                        Well, the letters seem to be about the prospect of co-operation with
                                        Reuss, specifically the letter of the 30th November to Sivers would
                                        seem to be about the negotiations of 24 November, for a membership in
                                        Memphis-Misraim and the right to use the `Misraim' name.

                                        By 2 January 1906 Steiner does specifically refer to Masonry as 'a
                                        caricature' having said to Marie Sivers on 30 November that Reuss
                                        could not be trusted and that the occult forces withdrew themselves
                                        from 'the thing'. Now, Reuss was a trader in Masonic charters and
                                        that was pretty much the passion of his life.

                                        So I can't really see what else Steiner might have been referring to
                                        here other than Masonry.

                                        Maybe there is more evidence to show Steiner is talking about
                                        something else, if so, I'd like to see it. But it is not apparent
                                        here.

                                        The number of words is neither here nor there, so far as I can see.

                                        I am not sure whether Steiner is contradicting himself, but if he is,
                                        well, he was human, so . . .

                                        The main reason I can see for his brief and atypical foray into this
                                        area is his interest in Rosicrucianism, about which he wrote widely.

                                        If one were to set out to write books on a highly secretive subject,
                                        surely it would be sensible, as part of one's research to contact
                                        people and societies in the field ?

                                        I'm interested in Rosicrucianism too, and as a result have met with
                                        people I would categorise in the same league as Reuss. It's part of
                                        the territory I'm afraid.


                                        >
                                        [[ *******Just as they burned down the Goetheanum and wanted to kill
                                        > Steiner----they didn't want any competition.
                                        > After the defeat of the World War, the old Masonic leaders fell
                                        into
                                        > disrepute, since their class had lost the war---- and in the chaos
                                        of 1919-1923,
                                        > some quite loathsome characters started splinter groups filled with
                                        > anti-Semitism and very low or "left-hand" occultism. ]]


                                        Yes, but these few splinter groups, while they involved some Masons,
                                        hardly goes to substantiate the claim of 'degeneracy' in most Masonic
                                        orders. In fact these individuals were as marginal to Masonry as
                                        Reuss and his ilk.

                                        Well, I can agree with you that not everything Ravenscroft wrote was
                                        factual, no argument there at all.

                                        Fra Ben
                                      • Pierre Gringoire
                                        Firstly, many thanks to Joel for this informative link: http://www.defendingsteiner.com/articles/rs-reuss.php ... This assumes Steiner was being unconsciously
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 26 10:27 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                           
                                          Firstly, many thanks to Joel for this informative link:

                                          Secondly, regarding the following remarks made by Ben in his last post:

                                          > just because a transmission is received does not mean that one can
                                          > necessarily identify features of the transmitter's teachings
                                          > in those of the receiver
                                          of the transmission.
                                           
                                          This assumes Steiner was being unconsciously guided.  It is a restatement of the same slur made by Samuel.

                                          > I am not sure whether Steiner is
                                          contradicting
                                          > himself, but if he is, well, he was human, so . . .
                                           
                                          Meaning: he was capable of lying.  Been here before haven't we?

                                        • fratermaui
                                          Dear List I received quite a bashing here when I said that Steiner created a masonic lodge and that it still continued to operate. People here either didnt
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 14, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear List

                                            I received quite a bashing here when I said that Steiner created a
                                            masonic lodge and that it still continued to operate. People here
                                            either didnt want to know, said Steiner was never a member or worked
                                            any such lodge and called me a liar. Now while I did make several
                                            mistakes concerning some details I´ve since compared the oral
                                            teachings of our lodge with those that still exist in Germany and
                                            others and have formed a better picture of what happened through the
                                            transmission of his masonic rituals to us. It was Theodore Ruess that
                                            gave Steiner the authority to work the masonic rite, however Steiner
                                            took no authority from him and changed the ritauls, for example the
                                            second degree contains Lucifer and Ahriman. Now while I havent read
                                            this book here it is given for those who simply told me to get lost
                                            and said that no such rituals from Stiener ever existed. This book
                                            proves that wrong and also in the reveiws shows that lodges in both
                                            Germany and New Zealand still exist and another in Sweden.

                                            See http://www.amazon.com/Freemasonry-Ritual-Work-Documents-Cognitive-
                                            Ritual/dp/0880106123 to find out more about Steiners Masonic school

                                            in LVX Frater Maui






                                            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, DoctorStarman@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > In a message dated 5/8/2005 11:20:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                            > fraterm@... writes:
                                            >
                                            > > No Pierre, we are quite aware of Steiner’s take on secret
                                            orders and the
                                            > > such as after he left the order he did indeed reject the society
                                            and would have
                                            > > nothing to do with it and Pat Z should have some references to
                                            that. Again
                                            > > its only given for historical reference, I’m not sure if the
                                            title Supreme
                                            > > Magus is correct as they had another name for it also (ie another
                                            language) but
                                            > > SM is the standard to describe the head of an order. Waite left
                                            too many
                                            > > references to Steiner being in this society for a time and he was
                                            in just about
                                            > > every society during his era and knew everyone’s going on’s
                                            quite well. The
                                            > > order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an
                                            umbrella group, it
                                            > > will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society
                                            came under
                                            > > its wings as well....
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > *******To assert that Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society,
                                            which fought
                                            > pitched battles with all Masonic-type groups for the same reason as
                                            Steiner,
                                            > that she believed that everything must be revealed openly----and
                                            for which
                                            > practice of revealing their secrets, Blavatsky herself suffered a
                                            lot----shows even
                                            > less understanding of it than of the Anthroposophical Society on
                                            your part.
                                            >
                                            > There was no order Steiner was a head of which he later
                                            rejected; he was
                                            > a loner in the late 1890s in Berlin except for the many literary
                                            figures he
                                            > associated with. Neither he nor any of his biographers have ever
                                            said anything
                                            > about any Order. He described a SPIRITUAL being tutoring him at
                                            this time, whom
                                            > he called the Master.
                                            >
                                            > Once more, if you are interested in the study of Steiner and his
                                            > anthroposophy you are welcome here. You are not, when you talk
                                            about some stuff which
                                            > is completely foreign to him and assert it was his source, implying
                                            superior
                                            > knowledge, which might account for not having heard one single
                                            question from
                                            > you. That would seem to indicate you just want to spam this list
                                            with ads for
                                            > your own list, which you are promoting by the aid of definite
                                            falsehoods about
                                            > Steiner. Stop these baseless assertions and show some interest in
                                            what we're
                                            > about or you will be removed.
                                            >
                                            > -starman
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > In LVX Samuel
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            Behalf Of
                                            > > Pierre Gringoire
                                            > > Sent: Monday, 9 May 2005 7:57 AM
                                            > > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner
                                            Rosicrucian "Transmission"
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > I must say that I am in complete agreement with Sheila and Dr.
                                            Starman. The
                                            > > following is highly questionable:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > "In 1897 Rudolf Steiner travelled to Berlin to become Supreme
                                            Magus over the
                                            > > Grand Lodge there."
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > It is quite possible that the person using the pseudonym 'Frater
                                            Maui' or
                                            > > 'Samuel' is unaware of the contentious nature of these remarks.
                                            If so, he
                                            > > displays an ignorance of both Steiner and the circumstances of
                                            his life. It
                                            > > would be highly surprising if any genuine Rosicrucian Order would
                                            fail to inform
                                            > > its members exactly why such remarks are controversial. The
                                            exact motive
                                            > > behind this 'revelation' is as yet unclear.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Pierre Gringiore
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > www.DrStarman.com
                                            >
                                          • Durward Starman
                                            That link leads nowhere, very symbolic since what you re talking about doesn t exist. 1.) Steiner was not a Mason; 2.) He did not establish any organization
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 14, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              That link leads nowhere, very symbolic since what you're talking about doesn't exist.
                                               
                                              1.) Steiner was not a Mason;
                                              2.) He did not establish any organization besides the Anthroposophical Society;
                                              3.) Anyone seeking to say he did so, in the face of all facts to the contrary which can be verified by contacting the Goetheanum, is trying to hijack Steiner to get his stamp of approval on some fake group based on lies.
                                              4.) If you have no interest in Steiner's teachings you do not want to be part of this group. You're welcome to form your own Theodore Ruess list and do whatever you want with it. Try to say he was "Steiner's teacher" and you will be contradicted, however.
                                               
                                              -Starman
                                              www.DrStarman.com



                                              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: fratermaui@...
                                              Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:17:11 +0000
                                              Subject: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner Rosicrucian "Transmission"


                                              Dear List

                                              I received quite a bashing here when I said that Steiner created a
                                              masonic lodge and that it still continued to operate. People here
                                              either didnt want to know, said Steiner was never a member or worked
                                              any such lodge and called me a liar. Now while I did make several
                                              mistakes concerning some details I´ve since compared the oral
                                              teachings of our lodge with those that still exist in Germany and
                                              others and have formed a better picture of what happened through the
                                              transmission of his masonic rituals to us. It was Theodore Ruess that
                                              gave Steiner the authority to work the masonic rite, however Steiner
                                              took no authority from him and changed the ritauls, for example the
                                              second degree contains Lucifer and Ahriman. Now while I havent read
                                              this book here it is given for those who simply told me to get lost
                                              and said that no such rituals from Stiener ever existed. This book
                                              proves that wrong and also in the reveiws shows that lodges in both
                                              Germany and New Zealand still exist and another in Sweden.

                                              See http://www.amazon. com/Freemasonry- Ritual-Work- Documents- Cognitive-
                                              Ritual/dp/088010612 3 to find out more about Steiners Masonic school

                                              in LVX Frater Maui

                                              --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, DoctorStarman@ ... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > In a message dated 5/8/2005 11:20:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                              > fraterm@... writes:
                                              >
                                              > > No Pierre, we are quite aware of Steiner’s take on secret
                                              orders and the
                                              > > such as after he left the order he did indeed reject the society
                                              and would have
                                              > > nothing to do with it and Pat Z should have some references to
                                              that. Again
                                              > > its only given for historical reference, I’m not sure if the
                                              title Supreme
                                              > > Magus is correct as they had another name for it also (ie another
                                              language) but
                                              > > SM is the standard to describe the head of an order. Waite left
                                              too many
                                              > > references to Steiner being in this society for a time and he was
                                              in just about
                                              > > every society during his era and knew everyone’s going on’s
                                              quite well. The
                                              > > order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an
                                              umbrella group, it
                                              > > will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society
                                              came under
                                              > > its wings as well....
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > *******To assert that Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society,
                                              which fought
                                              > pitched battles with all Masonic-type groups for the same reason as
                                              Steiner,
                                              > that she believed that everything must be revealed openly----and
                                              for which
                                              > practice of revealing their secrets, Blavatsky herself suffered a
                                              lot----shows even
                                              > less understanding of it than of the Anthroposophical Society on
                                              your part.
                                              >
                                              > There was no order Steiner was a head of which he later
                                              rejected; he was
                                              > a loner in the late 1890s in Berlin except for the many literary
                                              figures he
                                              > associated with. Neither he nor any of his biographers have ever
                                              said anything
                                              > about any Order. He described a SPIRITUAL being tutoring him at
                                              this time, whom
                                              > he called the Master.
                                              >
                                              > Once more, if you are interested in the study of Steiner and his
                                              > anthroposophy you are welcome here. You are not, when you talk
                                              about some stuff which
                                              > is completely foreign to him and assert it was his source, implying
                                              superior
                                              > knowledge, which might account for not having heard one single
                                              question from
                                              > you. That would seem to indicate you just want to spam this list
                                              with ads for
                                              > your own list, which you are promoting by the aid of definite
                                              falsehoods about
                                              > Steiner. Stop these baseless assertions and show some interest in
                                              what we're
                                              > about or you will be removed.
                                              >
                                              > -starman
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > In LVX Samuel
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > From: steiner@yahoogroups .com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups .com] On
                                              Behalf Of
                                              > > Pierre Gringoire
                                              > > Sent: Monday, 9 May 2005 7:57 AM
                                              > > To: steiner@yahoogroups .com
                                              > > Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner
                                              Rosicrucian "Transmission"
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > I must say that I am in complete agreement with Sheila and Dr.
                                              Starman. The
                                              > > following is highly questionable:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > "In 1897 Rudolf Steiner travelled to Berlin to become Supreme
                                              Magus over the
                                              > > Grand Lodge there."
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > It is quite possible that the person using the pseudonym 'Frater
                                              Maui' or
                                              > > 'Samuel' is unaware of the contentious nature of these remarks.
                                              If so, he
                                              > > displays an ignorance of both Steiner and the circumstances of
                                              his life. It
                                              > > would be highly surprising if any genuine Rosicrucian Order would
                                              fail to inform
                                              > > its members exactly why such remarks are controversial. The
                                              exact motive
                                              > > behind this 'revelation' is as yet unclear.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Pierre Gringiore
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > www.DrStarman. com
                                              >




                                              Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
                                            • Mathew Morrell
                                              ** Aren t Masons the ones that ride around in little cars during parades? ... worked ... the ... that ... Steiner ... Cognitive- ... society ... another ...
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 14, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                ** Aren't Masons the ones that ride around in little cars during
                                                parades?



                                                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "fratermaui" <fratermaui@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Dear List
                                                >
                                                > I received quite a bashing here when I said that Steiner created a
                                                > masonic lodge and that it still continued to operate. People here
                                                > either didnt want to know, said Steiner was never a member or
                                                worked
                                                > any such lodge and called me a liar. Now while I did make several
                                                > mistakes concerning some details I´ve since compared the oral
                                                > teachings of our lodge with those that still exist in Germany and
                                                > others and have formed a better picture of what happened through
                                                the
                                                > transmission of his masonic rituals to us. It was Theodore Ruess
                                                that
                                                > gave Steiner the authority to work the masonic rite, however
                                                Steiner
                                                > took no authority from him and changed the ritauls, for example the
                                                > second degree contains Lucifer and Ahriman. Now while I havent read
                                                > this book here it is given for those who simply told me to get lost
                                                > and said that no such rituals from Stiener ever existed. This book
                                                > proves that wrong and also in the reveiws shows that lodges in both
                                                > Germany and New Zealand still exist and another in Sweden.
                                                >
                                                > See http://www.amazon.com/Freemasonry-Ritual-Work-Documents-
                                                Cognitive-
                                                > Ritual/dp/0880106123 to find out more about Steiners Masonic school
                                                >
                                                > in LVX Frater Maui
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, DoctorStarman@ wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > In a message dated 5/8/2005 11:20:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                > > fraterm@ writes:
                                                > >
                                                > > > No Pierre, we are quite aware of Steiner’s take on secret
                                                > orders and the
                                                > > > such as after he left the order he did indeed reject the
                                                society
                                                > and would have
                                                > > > nothing to do with it and Pat Z should have some references to
                                                > that. Again
                                                > > > its only given for historical reference, I’m not sure if the
                                                > title Supreme
                                                > > > Magus is correct as they had another name for it also (ie
                                                another
                                                > language) but
                                                > > > SM is the standard to describe the head of an order. Waite left
                                                > too many
                                                > > > references to Steiner being in this society for a time and he
                                                was
                                                > in just about
                                                > > > every society during his era and knew everyone’s going on’s
                                                > quite well. The
                                                > > > order that Steiner chaired when Felkin arrived was also an
                                                > umbrella group, it
                                                > > > will again drive you nuts to hear that the Theosophical society
                                                > came under
                                                > > > its wings as well....
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > *******To assert that Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society,
                                                > which fought
                                                > > pitched battles with all Masonic-type groups for the same reason
                                                as
                                                > Steiner,
                                                > > that she believed that everything must be revealed openly----and
                                                > for which
                                                > > practice of revealing their secrets, Blavatsky herself suffered a
                                                > lot----shows even
                                                > > less understanding of it than of the Anthroposophical Society on
                                                > your part.
                                                > >
                                                > > There was no order Steiner was a head of which he later
                                                > rejected; he was
                                                > > a loner in the late 1890s in Berlin except for the many literary
                                                > figures he
                                                > > associated with. Neither he nor any of his biographers have ever
                                                > said anything
                                                > > about any Order. He described a SPIRITUAL being tutoring him at
                                                > this time, whom
                                                > > he called the Master.
                                                > >
                                                > > Once more, if you are interested in the study of Steiner and
                                                his
                                                > > anthroposophy you are welcome here. You are not, when you talk
                                                > about some stuff which
                                                > > is completely foreign to him and assert it was his source,
                                                implying
                                                > superior
                                                > > knowledge, which might account for not having heard one single
                                                > question from
                                                > > you. That would seem to indicate you just want to spam this list
                                                > with ads for
                                                > > your own list, which you are promoting by the aid of definite
                                                > falsehoods about
                                                > > Steiner. Stop these baseless assertions and show some interest in
                                                > what we're
                                                > > about or you will be removed.
                                                > >
                                                > > -starman
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In LVX Samuel
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > From: steiner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:steiner@yahoogroups.com]
                                                On
                                                > Behalf Of
                                                > > > Pierre Gringoire
                                                > > > Sent: Monday, 9 May 2005 7:57 AM
                                                > > > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Alleged Steiner
                                                > Rosicrucian "Transmission"
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I must say that I am in complete agreement with Sheila and Dr.
                                                > Starman. The
                                                > > > following is highly questionable:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > "In 1897 Rudolf Steiner travelled to Berlin to become Supreme
                                                > Magus over the
                                                > > > Grand Lodge there."
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > It is quite possible that the person using the
                                                pseudonym 'Frater
                                                > Maui' or
                                                > > > 'Samuel' is unaware of the contentious nature of these
                                                remarks.
                                                > If so, he
                                                > > > displays an ignorance of both Steiner and the circumstances of
                                                > his life. It
                                                > > > would be highly surprising if any genuine Rosicrucian Order
                                                would
                                                > fail to inform
                                                > > > its members exactly why such remarks are controversial. The
                                                > exact motive
                                                > > > behind this 'revelation' is as yet unclear.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Pierre Gringiore
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > www.DrStarman.com
                                                > >
                                                >
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