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  • Mathew Morrell
    Wow Sheila, you re passionate about this matter. That s good. Let me restate some points I made in my last post, in hope that they can be better understood.
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 21, 2005
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      Wow Sheila, you're passionate about this matter. That's good. Let
      me restate some points I made in my last post, in hope that they can
      be better understood. The job of the Ulma (the learned Muslim
      class) is to create a "consensus" about religious matters.
      This "consensus," or ijma, cannot be betrayed once it is made law.
      Why? because it is considered divine revelation. Therefore Muslim
      law is not open to re-interpretation; it must remain unaltered
      regardless of time and location, throughout the ages.

      Now, does that mean the Ulma in Iraq are in agreement with the Ulma
      in Saudi Arabia, or that the Ulma belonging to the Shiites agree
      with the Ulma in Sunni Islam. Of course not, hence my previous
      posts last week on the topic of disunity among schools of Islam.

      Next, the topic of Islam "being" the Old Testament. We must be
      careful approaching this subject without first providing deeper
      insight into the matter. I love the Old Testament and treasure the
      Old Testament stories that are contained there in. What a powerful
      poetic/prophetic work! The Old Testament I know is written in a
      magical stream of consciousness that enchants the reader with its
      mystery and charm.

      I cannot say the same for the Koran. It is probably the single most
      un-charming book that I've read in my entire life, written in a
      straight forward prose similar to how the epistles in the New
      Testament were written. Islam also aggressively rejects Christ as
      the Son of God, both as an idea and a reality. The Koran insists
      that "The Son" is impossible. God cannot conceive Christ, according
      to Mohammed. To say otherwise is blasphemy. "Those who say: `The
      Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at
      which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the
      mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the
      Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!"

      The Judaic impulse was open to the Christ, and He made himself
      manifest to the Jews in various forms throughout the Old Testament;
      i.e. through the burning bush.

      However, orthodox Islam and orthodox Judaism do have something in
      common. They have not transcended the Magian world view. Human
      beings experience thought and will only as "effects" on their
      consciousness, not as prime realities; thought and will are "brought
      upon" them by God. God descends upon man, raises him up, denies
      him, embraces him, and illuminates him, according to the will of a
      detached, enigmatic Power. The I AM has not been internalized.
    • LilOleMissy
      On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:57 AM, Mathew Morrell wrote: Wow Sheila, you re passionate about this matter. That s good. Let me restate some points I made in my
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 21, 2005
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        On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:57 AM, Mathew Morrell wrote:

        Wow Sheila, you're passionate about this matter. That's good. Let
        me restate some points I made in my last post, in hope that they can
        be better understood. The job of the Ulma (the learned Muslim
        class) is to create a "consensus" about religious matters.
        This "consensus," or ijma, cannot be betrayed once it is made law.
        Why? because it is considered divine revelation. Therefore Muslim
        law is not open to re-interpretation; it must remain unaltered
        regardless of time and location, throughout the ages.

        Now, does that mean the Ulma in Iraq are in agreement with the Ulma
        in Saudi Arabia, or that the Ulma belonging to the Shiites agree
        with the Ulma in Sunni Islam. Of course not, hence my previous
        posts last week on the topic of disunity among schools of Islam.

        Next, the topic of Islam "being" the Old Testament. We must be
        careful approaching this subject without first providing deeper
        insight into the matter. I love the Old Testament and treasure the
        Old Testament stories that are contained there in. What a powerful
        poetic/prophetic work! The Old Testament I know is written in a
        magical stream of consciousness that enchants the reader with its
        mystery and charm.

        I cannot say the same for the Koran. It is probably the single most
        un-charming book that I've read in my entire life, written in a
        straight forward prose similar to how the epistles in the New
        Testament were written. Islam also aggressively rejects Christ as
        the Son of God, both as an idea and a reality. The Koran insists
        that "The Son" is impossible. God cannot conceive Christ, according
        to Mohammed. To say otherwise is blasphemy. "Those who say: `The
        Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at
        which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the
        mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the
        Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!"

        The Judaic impulse was open to the Christ, and He made himself
        manifest to the Jews in various forms throughout the Old Testament;
        i.e. through the burning bush.

        However, orthodox Islam and orthodox Judaism do have something in
        common. They have not transcended the Magian world view. Human
        beings experience thought and will only as "effects" on their
        consciousness, not as prime realities; thought and will are "brought
        upon" them by God. God descends upon man, raises him up, denies
        him, embraces him, and illuminates him, according to the will of a
        detached, enigmatic Power. The I AM has not been internalized.

        Dear Mathew,

        I'm afraid you've mistaken Paulina's rightful stance on Islam as having
        originated from me, but that is not the case. In brief, I hold
        everything Islamic/Muslim as wholly and without qualification Satanic
        en toto. It might be insightful to you should you read the
        investigative as well as the autopsy reports of the recent Islamic
        ritual killings of such individuals as Theodore Van Goth as well as the
        entire New Jersey family, including an 8 year old child. Furthermore,
        the US, my country, in the near future will suffer a massive loss of
        life from Islam via a so-called "Dirty Bomb," a nuclear weapon.

        Sheila
      • eyecueco@netscape.net
        ... Mathew, let me restate: An iman is the same as a reb in Judaism, a minister in the Christian faith; all are _mortal men_.   ... Then ask yourself why
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 21, 2005
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          "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:

          >
          >Wow Sheila, you're passionate about this matter.  That's good.  Let
          >me restate some points I made in my last post, in hope that they can
          >be better understood.  The job of the Ulma (the learned Muslim
          >class) is to create a "consensus" about religious matters.


          Mathew, let me restate: An iman is the same as a reb in Judaism, a minister
          in the Christian faith; all are _mortal men_.



           
          >This "consensus," or ijma, cannot be betrayed once it is made law.  
          >Why? because it is considered divine revelation.  Therefore Muslim
          >law is not open to re-interpretation; it must remain unaltered
          >regardless of time and location, throughout the ages.

          Then ask yourself why there is so much conflict between imans, rebs, ministers in regard to differing intepertations of "what is written".


           
          >
          >Now, does that mean the Ulma in Iraq are in agreement with the Ulma
          >in Saudi Arabia, or that the Ulma belonging to the Shiites agree
          >with the Ulma in Sunni Islam.  Of course not, hence my previous
          >posts last week on the topic of disunity among schools of Islam.

          Actually Shai'a Law is what was determined, set in stone by the so-called prophet of Allah, Mohammad.
           
          >
          >Next, the topic of Islam "being" the Old Testament.  We must be
          >careful approaching this subject without first providing deeper
          >insight into the matter.  I love the Old Testament and treasure the
          >Old Testament stories that are contained there in.  What a powerful
          >poetic/prophetic work!  The Old Testament I know is written in a
          >magical stream of consciousness that enchants the reader with its
          >mystery and charm.

          You are mixing apples and oranges. Why?
           

          >I cannot say the same for the Koran.  It is probably the single most
          >un-charming book that I've read in my entire life, written in a
          >straight forward prose similar to how the epistles in the New
          >Testament were written.

          Straight forward because streaming from the so-called revelation of one
          individual in only one lifetime, whereas the OT speaks of many epochs and
          many revelations given to many prophets throughout
          the beginning of time/space..."In the Beginning..."
          down to the time of the Roman's conquering Israel.


          >Islam also aggressively rejects Christ as
          >the Son of God, both as an idea and a reality.  The Koran insists
          >that "The Son" is impossible.  God cannot conceive Christ, according
          >to Mohammed.  To say otherwise is blasphemy.  "Those who say: `The
          >Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at
          >which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the
          >mountains crumble to dust.  That they should ascribe a son to the
          >Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!"

          What is your point?

          >The Judaic impulse was open to the Christ, and He made himself
          >manifest to the Jews in various forms throughout the Old Testament;
          >i.e. through the burning bush.
          >
          >However, orthodox Islam and orthodox Judaism do have something in
          >common.  They have not transcended the Magian world view.  Human
          >beings experience thought and will only as "effects" on their
          >consciousness, not as prime realities; thought and will are "brought
          >upon" them by God.  



          How very Islamic of you. :-)
          You are just restating a centuries old argument already debated by Averroes at the
          time of the culumination of the intellectual soul, before Cosmic Intelligence was
          transferred to mankind. Albertus and Aquinius alread won that argument. Since
          Michael's decree that Cosmic Intelligence be given over to mankind "active intelligence'
          has been a reality. Before that Averroes was, (as your statment above) correct, however, _after_ the transference of Cosmice Intelligence into the _minds_ of mankind, he,
          (as your statement above) was wrong.
          Active thinking is no longer in the hands of the Sprits of Form, but mankind.

          >God descends upon man, raises him up, denies
          >him, embraces him, and illuminates him, according to the will of a
          >detached, enigmatic Power.  The I AM has not been internalized.

          Yes it has been internalized.
          What the individual does with the 'I Am' gift of the 'ego', bestowed at the time of
          Moses, is up to the individual. We are supposed to be working to make this 'ego'
          a fit vessel for the Cosmic Christ impulse.

          When I refer to islam as beng OT I am not making a negative statement about the OT.
          I am just saying that it belongs to a past time and place and a task taht belongs in the
          history books, not determining events on the current world stage.

          Paulina




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