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Re: ???

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  • DoctorStarman@aol.com
    ... ********Steiner mentioned in his plays, in poetic language, about the elemental beings that rule the interior of the earth, saying approximately that we
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 20 7:24 PM
      dcf330@... writes:
      Starman, do you, or Steiner, or anyone else have insight into the question of what consequences extracting oil from inside the earth has?  Is there a purpose for the earth that the oil serves that we don't know about?  Such as maybe preventing earthquakes?  Is there an occult significance to the presence of oil in the earth?  Did Steiner make any mention of oil and its significance?



      ********Steiner mentioned in his plays, in poetic language, about the elemental beings that rule the interior of the earth, saying approximately that we had to repay them in some form for what we remove from the earth and use. To my knowledge, however, he never anywhere said anything to support the anti-industrial "Luddite" position that says human beings shouldn't do so at all.


      >> Also, on a related topic, does anyone know what the current situation is with alternative fuel sources?  Are the major automakers still buying out the patents and ideas for using alternative fueled vehicles such as hydrogen fuel, hybrid fuel, soybean fuel, corn fuel, solar fuel, etc?  Just how powerful  are the automaker lobbies in Washington DC?  All-powerful, it seems.


      ********Since to me this is a myth with a life of its own, like that the moon landings were filmed in Hollywood or the Holocaust didn't happen, I'll ask you: do you know of any evidence for even one case where someone "bought up the patents" for some technology to prevent it from being used?
          Steiner cautions us to use clear thinking always on the Path. Fantastic thinking such as conspiracy theories, or for that matter any hysterical appeal to emotions rather than reason, he never encouraged. I've never heard of a single real case of what you're talking about, and in fact as anyone who understands patent law knows, patents are public knowledge, and it's absurdly easy to change one small part of a design and apply for a new patent.
         Any legal cases where someone tried to do so and "They" (you know, the famous Them ;->) sued for patent infringement in order to keep the wraps on a patent "they" bought out and were keeping under wraps have yet to come to my attention or that of any attorney I know in 20 years of searching. Perhaps you know of one?

      Skeptically,
      Starman
      www.DrStarman.net
    • David Fey
      It s hard for me not to question a long-term policy that supports the constant and continual extraction of oil form the earth without any reservations as to
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 31 11:05 AM
        It's hard for me not to question a long-term policy that supports the constant and continual extraction of oil form the earth without any reservations as to the possible long-term consequences.  In fact, it's absurd to think of such a policy.  I think we all need to ask ourselves why.  First of all, I don't advocate an anti-industrial Luddite position (whatever that is); my questioning the practice of unchecked oil drilling has nothing to do with an "anti-industrial" position.  There are many forms of industry that don't depend on oil, or that could be provided energy from an alternative source.  Nor do I say that human beings "shouldn't do so at all".  What I advocate is alternative sources so that oil dependency doesn't drive humans to do something more stupid than they've already done.  I can't help but think (and I beg your pardon, Starman, for this speculation of mine;- by the way, I'm not a Stenier clone, and I think and act in freedom ;-) that the long-term consequences of this practice are increased earthquakes, and that would be repayment to the nature elementals.
         
        I'll ask you: do you know of any evidence for even one case where someone "bought up the patents" for some technology to prevent it from being used?
         
        This might have been a poor choice of words on my part; I forgot what an (anal) stickler Starman is for precise language.  What I should have said (and anyone could have come to this meaning quite easily if they wanted to put forth any mental effort of their own) is that automakers don't wait for a patent to be given to someone else; I'm sure they buy it before it gets patented, which is why that information can't be accessed through public records. But all that is really beside the point anyway, and not the central part of my argument.  Regardless of the patent policies, the automaker lobby tied to the oil lobby is the most powerful special interest on the planet.  And in a way, this is justly so, because of the potential immense impact on the economy of any shifts in the well-being of these two industries.
        But this becomes a problem as human knowledge increases and spiritual evolution continues.  THE POWERFUL WILL ALWAYS SEEK TO CONTINUE THE STATUS-QUO AND KEEP THEMSELVES IN POWER DESPITE THE LONG-TERM COST TO OTHER PEOPLE.  And if you don't believe it, I can only suggest that you're naive.  So as human and spiritual evolution continues we are either going to have alternative fuel sources made ready for a gradual phasing out or decrease in dependency on oil production (the sane and unlikely scenario); or we're going to eventually reach a crisis stage when fuel supplies are no longer available to everyone and there truly will be a war for oil.  You see, if you're a materialist, materialists don't have to think of long-term consequences to other people.  They are only driven by THEIR material need NOW, which is ALWAYS for more money, no matter how much they have.
         
         Steiner cautions us to use clear thinking always on the Path. Fantastic thinking such as conspiracy theories, or for that matter any hysterical appeal to emotions rather than reason, he never encouraged. I've never heard of a single real case of what you're talking about, and in fact as anyone who understands patent law knows, patents are public knowledge, and it's absurdly easy to change one small part of a design and apply for a new patent
         
        I guess I covered most of the rather exaggerated comments made above.  Conspiracy theories?  Hysterical?  I guess my definitions are different than yours.  I suggest a dictionary.  Appeal to emotions, rather than reason? LOL
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From:
        Sent: 10/20/04 8:24:15 PM
        Subject: [steiner] Re: ???

        dcf330@... writes:
        Starman, do you, or Steiner, or anyone else have insight into the question of what consequences extracting oil from inside the earth has?  Is there a purpose for the earth that the oil serves that we don't know about?  Such as maybe preventing earthquakes?  Is there an occult significance to the presence of oil in the earth?  Did Steiner make any mention of oil and its significance?



        ********Steiner mentioned in his plays, in poetic language, about the elemental beings that rule the interior of the earth, saying approximately that we had to repay them in some form for what we remove from the earth and use. To my knowledge, however, he never anywhere said anything to support the anti-industrial "Luddite" position that says human beings shouldn't do so at all.


        >> Also, on a related topic, does anyone know what the current situation is with alternative fuel sources?  Are the major automakers still buying out the patents and ideas for using alternative fueled vehicles such as hydrogen fuel, hybrid fuel, soybean fuel, corn fuel, solar fuel, etc?  Just how powerful  are the automaker lobbies in Washington DC?  All-powerful, it seems.


        ********Since to me this is a myth with a life of its own, like that the moon landings were filmed in Hollywood or the Holocaust didn't happen, I'll ask you: do you know of any evidence for even one case where someone "bought up the patents" for some technology to prevent it from being used?
            Steiner cautions us to use clear thinking always on the Path. Fantastic thinking such as conspiracy theories, or for that matter any hysterical appeal to emotions rather than reason, he never encouraged. I've never heard of a single real case of what you're talking about, and in fact as anyone who understands patent law knows, patents are public knowledge, and it's absurdly easy to change one small part of a design and apply for a new patent.
           Any legal cases where someone tried to do so and "They" (you know, the famous Them ;->) sued for patent infringement in order to keep the wraps on a patent "they" bought out and were keeping under wraps have yet to come to my attention or that of any attorney I know in 20 years of searching. Perhaps you know of one?

        Skeptically,
        Starman
        www.DrStarman.net


        Post to steiner@egroups.comSearch the archives of the group at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

        Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html

        ommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html




      • DoctorStarman@aol.com
        ... To: steiner@yahoogroups.com Sent: 10/20/04 8:24:15 PM ... I responded: ********Since to me this is a myth with a life of its own, like that the moon
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 31 6:13 PM
          ----- Original Message -----
          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 10/20/04 8:24:15 PM
          >> does anyone know what the current situation is with alternative fuel sources?  Are the major automakers still buying out the patents and ideas for using alternative fueled vehicles such as hydrogen fuel, hybrid fuel, soybean fuel, corn fuel, solar fuel, etc?  Just how powerful  are the automaker lobbies in Washington DC?  All-powerful, it seems.

          I responded:
          ********Since to me this is a myth with a life of its own, like that the moon landings were filmed in Hollywood or the Holocaust didn't happen, I'll ask you: do you know of any evidence for even one case where someone "bought up the patents" for some technology to prevent it from being used?
             Steiner cautions us to use clear thinking always on the Path. Fantastic thinking such as conspiracy theories, or for that matter any hysterical appeal to emotions rather than reason, he never encouraged. I've never heard of a single real case of what you're talking about, and in fact as anyone who understands patent law knows, patents are public knowledge, and it's absurdly easy to change one small part of a design and apply for a new patent.
            Any legal cases where someone tried to do so and "They" (you know, the famous Them ;->) sued for patent infringement in order to keep the wraps on a patent "they" bought out and were keeping under wraps have yet to come to my attention or that of any attorney I know in 20 years of searching. Perhaps you know of one?
          Skeptically,
          Starman



          *******After 10 days in which to research the question of allegedly suppressed alternative technology through a conspiracy to acquire patents, David replied:


          >>It's hard for me not to question a long-term policy that supports the constant and continual extraction of oil form the earth without any reservations as to the possible long-term consequences.  In fact, it's absurd to think of such a policy.  I think we all need to ask ourselves why.  First of all, I don't advocate an anti-industrial Luddite position (whatever that is); my questioning the practice of unchecked oil drilling has nothing to do with an "anti-industrial" position.  There are many forms of industry that don't depend on oil, or that could be provided energy from an alternative source.  Nor do I say that human beings "shouldn't do so at all".  What I advocate is alternative sources so that oil dependency doesn't drive humans to do something more stupid than they've already done.  I can't help but think (and I beg your pardon, Starman, for this speculation of mine;- by the way, I'm not a Stenier clone, and I think and act in freedom ;-) that the long-term consequences of this practice are increased earthquakes, and that would be repayment to the nature elementals....



          ****** Well first, this just evades my response to your question, and provides none of the requested evidence for your original assertion. It just continues making more unsupported assertions. That's not  way of having a conversation or learning anything from anyone in this group, Rather, I'd say, it's just a prescription for a monologue.

             Second, it's a great pity whenever anyone says he "can't help but think" this or that way---- the opposite of the "Philosophy of Freedom", or of "Microcosmic and Macrocosmic Thinking" (Human and Cosmic Thought) with the 12 Points of View, in which we learn to recognize when we are CHOOSING to align our thinking with one or another. When one imagines one's thinking "freely" at the same time, it's even more of a shame.
             It seemed to me, Dave, you were only asking rhetorical questions--- that is, fishing for anything Steiner might have said that could be used to support your "party platform", or in other words the opinions you already hold. Anything not confirming your prejudices, you were ready to simply disregard. That's not following the anthroposophic Path, which demands we be rid of all prejudices. (See the second chapter of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, the section on the second Trial.)

              Third, I'll once more say in answer, that I know of nothing saying earthquakes are caused by oil drilling, not from Steiner or for that matter from any other source--- not even from the most extreme environmentalists if they are still at all relying on any scientific thinking, since obviously oil is removed from the outer skin of the earth while the cause of earthquakes is deep within the interior. It sounds more like doom-and-gloom Jeremiads to me, and no, Steiner said nothing of the kind. The "payback" we owe the elemental beings, I believe Steiner said is spiritual in nature.


            I asked:
          do you know of any evidence for even one case where someone "bought up the patents" for some technology to prevent it from being used?
            Response:
          This might have been a poor choice of words on my part; I forgot what an (anal) stickler Starman is for precise language.  What I should have said (and anyone could have come to this meaning quite easily if they wanted to put forth any mental effort of their own) is that automakers don't wait for a patent to be given to someone else; I'm sure they buy it before it gets patented, which is why that information can't be accessed through public records. But all that is really beside the point anyway....

            ******* In other words, you won't respond to an identical request for even one instance of these imaginary events happening, of course.;->

              If I said the gun manufacturers in the US suppressed the patents for non-lethal weapons to keep gun sales high and you asked me for evidence, how would you feel if I just breezed right by your request and continued the assertion in slightly different words, then said 'well that's beside the point anyway' in order to get away with such slander?

             If "anal" means sticking to reality, I'll happily plead guilty. If anyone shows me any evidence of all those "patents and ideas" the "major automakers" are repeatedly "buying out" in your original post, I'll be happy to investigate.




            Dave:  THE POWERFUL WILL ALWAYS SEEK TO CONTINUE THE STATUS-QUO AND KEEP THEMSELVES IN POWER DESPITE THE LONG-TERM COST TO OTHER PEOPLE.  And if you don't believe it, I can only suggest that you're naive...


          *******How many powerful people have you known personally? Because my experiences have been quite the opposite. I've known a few quite well in the present and studied past ones also. Men who truly have power don't need to work at keeping it, they are confident they will do so. Often in fact, they more easily go beyond merely thinking of Self because their material needs are all filled, and instead can think of the future of their company/nation/ career field. Visit Henry Ford's Greenfield Village, for instance, where he warns about technology becoming too complicated for the average person to understand it and so the great need for education. When the pineapple growers in Hawaii found out years ago that their crops were failing because of soil depletion, they got together and began regarding the soil as like a bank that they had to safeguard to keep it healthy, not taking too much out and replenishing what was overdrawn (a fictionalized account of which can be found in Michener's "Hawaii.").
             The very first exercise on the Path is not to be critical of others and under-value what deserves respect. People who are millionaires are not all devils because of that, they are people. We can try to see them as human beings worthy of respect instead of stick figures.
              Even filthy rich multi-millionaires like Ted Turner, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, the late Jerry Garcia, the owners of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, etc., I'm sure, could be found to have praiseworthy qualities. ;->



            >>So as human and spiritual evolution continues we are either going to have alternative fuel sources made ready for a gradual phasing out or decrease in dependency on oil production (the sane and unlikely scenario); or we're going to eventually reach a crisis stage when fuel supplies are no longer available to everyone and there truly will be a war for oil. 

            ********Scientific experiments recently have shown that oil my not be a "fossil" fuel as we've been taught, but rather is produced deep within the earth itself, so that its supply may be virtually endless.
              Ever since Malthus folks have been predicting coming disaster---- I still have Paul Ehrlich's books from the late '60s predicting massive starvation by the 1990s--- and so I remain quite skeptical of all such pronouncements.
          -starman
          www.DrStarman.net
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