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Re: [steiner] Genghis Khan

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  • LilOleMissy@SBCglobal.net
    Dear Friends, Social-Artist is so correct that this medium via computers isn t conducive to a fully understandable or human feeling sharing of thoughts.
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 15, 2004
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      Dear Friends,

      Social-Artist is so correct that this medium via computers isn't conducive to a fully understandable or "human feeling" sharing of thoughts. Overall, however, I really think we've brought out valid points in sharing-disagreeing-interpretation-sarcasm [the latter probably mine...] plus nuances of various types all of us shall interpret in our own way. It seems to me Anthroposophists over-all, taken as a group, are blatently promoting Kerry for president in the face of everything Steiner warned us about as well as what is "scheduled", so to say, to occur in these, our current times. I must join Social-Artist's so wisely stated denial of Kerry as president.

      Paulina is right regarding in many ways, and also regarding Stein - I think that particular lecture she refers to is one I typed for a friend's web site, since I inherited the original 1930's publication and shared it very widely as well as others. This one as well as many others from the hearts of some of the Anthroposophical Pioneers should still be available gratis at http://www.transintelligence.org.

      Matthew, about Ghengis Khan, about whom your description of his savagery is well justified: Steiner speaks of him and unless I am greatly mistaken, he was in actuality an "initiate" for quite definite purposes during his time. It wasn't solely a case of his being a monster and destroying lives, civilizations and lands in the ghastly way in which he carried out his mission. Those times were one of Great Migrations and mixing of nations and civilizations. I hope someone may recall in which work Steiner speaks of this - perhaps "Occult History" or one of the Karmic Relationships volumes. There is absolutely no innuendo or mistatement whatsoever in Steiner's account of this role Ghengis Khan played out, and as Paulina stated, power rules until such time when we shall have developed the Consciousness Soul en masse. Sometimes I dispair that mankind shall ever accomplish that advanced state "en masse" within the time frame Steiner hoped, but it is certain mankind is divided against mankind as in no other recent historical time and perhaps more so than any time in the past.

      It seems to me Social-Artist is correct to a large extent regarding raising one's children, and everywhere I see strong impulses at work to ever decrease the span of that most precious time of all: childhood. The remark I made so flippantly regarding my son is true only in that he is a research oceanographer concentrating his work on our local Monterey Bay Canyon.

      Regarding Hitler, it seems to me possible an Asuric Being or perhaps an Ahrimanic Being  was able to displace the human Adolf Hitler to some degree, thereby enabling pure EVIL to emanate from the being we know as Hitler. Such "take-overs" are not uncommon among human beings during exceptional times and sadly, it seems we have yet to witness ever greater evil  for a very long time into the future. Also, we are undergoing the stress of Aristotleans supplanting the role of the long time reigning Platonists, and I've often wondered if the great importance Steiner placed on our knowing "which of the two types we are" may be related to this? That reference with Steiner's descriptions is to be found in "Karmic Relationships" Vol. III [The Karma of the Anthroposophical Movement"], and all of us can profit enormously should we find ourselves able to discern between the two.

      All of us, I somehow feel, have benefitted from these exchanges, and perhaps our visions have widened with more clear understanding gained. The Group has been too silent for too long, but we all have much to share in a right way--we don't help anyone solely by sitting  meditating with hands folded, mouth shut and fingers not typing and exchanging.

      Blessings,

      Sheila

      Mathew Morrell wrote:

      Let's check Webster's dictionary to see how they define a
      sociopath.  

      Sociopath:  PSYCHOPATH.

      Sociopathic:  of, relating to, or characterized by asocial or
      antisocial behavior or a psychopathic personality. 

      Psychopathic Personality:  an emotionally and behaviorally
      disordered state characterized by clear perception of reality except
      for the individual's social and moral obligations and often by
      pursuit of immediate personal gratification in criminal
      acts. . . . . .  

      Hitler's "social and moral obligation" was the same as it now is for
      the Islamo-fascists of today, the incineration of the Jews. 
      Otherwise he displayed a "clear perception" of reality, at least
      clear enough to be commander and chief of the German military.

      I'm going to go out on a limb and say, Yes, Genghis Khan also fits
      the above profile, even though we don't have accurate records of
      Genghis Khan's psychological state of mind.  When you talk about the
      meaningless, wholesale slaughter that Genghis Khan inflicted toward
      the end of his campaign, destroying Russia and parts of Europe, you
      would have to conclude that this man was driven by powerful inner
      demons.  There was a futility and strangeness to his expansion that
      differentiates it from healthy culture, and, at the same time, draws
      comparison to the Nazi's in the 20s and 30s.  To use a Spenglarian
      term, Khan did not seek to bring a "civilizing force" to any of his
      conquered territory, as the great army's of Rome and Greece did when
      they conquered new lands (or as America is doing now in Afghanistan
      and Iraq).  Khan's later conquering was completely senseless,
      without meaning, bloodthirsty, race-driven, egocentric, to the point
      where his kingdom became almost absurdly violent and unmanageable. 
      Russia was among the first to break their chains of slavery, and
      soon others followed, pushing the Mongols clear back into Asia:  
      proving you can conquer from the horse's back but you can't rule
      from one. 

      If someone else has a different take on Genghis Khan I would like to
      hear it.  This subject fascinates me. 






    • eyecueco@netscape.net
      ... Hi Mathew, Thanks for the definition, but my point was that this term is used in very broad and diverse terms in the field out of which it arose. There is
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 16, 2004
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        "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:

        >Let's check Webster's dictionary to see how they define a
        >sociopath.  
        >
        >Sociopath:  PSYCHOPATH.
        >
        >Sociopathic:  of, relating to, or characterized by asocial or
        >antisocial behavior or a psychopathic personality.  
        >
        >Psychopathic Personality:  an emotionally and behaviorally
        >disordered state characterized by clear perception of reality except
        >for the individual's social and moral obligations and often by
        >pursuit of immediate personal gratification in criminal
        >acts. . . . . .  

        Hi Mathew,

        Thanks for the definition, but my point was that this term is used in
        very broad and diverse terms in the field out of which it arose. There
        is no current consensus on what this term means specifically other
        than this individual is not oriented toward the Golden Rule, and do
        not seem to be able to feel outside the box of their narcissistism.

        >Hitler's "social and moral obligation" was the same as it now is for
        >the Islamo-fascists of today, the incineration of the Jews.

        Actually the Wahabbis want all of us in the West dead, jew and gentile.
        The goal is an Islamic world order put in place to serve their monothesitic
        god, and nothing is out of bounds to attain this goal. The West has not
        been paying attention to what has been actually going on in the world,
        other than the Opus Dei Curia (almost as bad as the Whabbis).


        As for Hitler, I don't think his anti-Semitic position can be understood
        without putting this into a perspective of the 19th Century Austrio-
        Hungarian Empire. The issues are very complex. Anyway, when I
        said that I don't consider Hitler to have been a sociopath that is because
        of demonstrated behaviors such as his capacity for empathy when he
        went around on a number of occasions collecting money for others in
        danger of being turned out of the flop house where he resided in his
        early 20s. At the same time, however, he was known to fly, without cause,
        into lecturing rages in the common room before curfew. I think that with
        Hitler the psychological issues are very complex, and Freudian.

         
        >Otherwise he displayed a "clear perception" of reality, at least
        >clear enough to be commander and chief of the German military.

        Well, the historic record would dispute this. He drove his military nuts
        with his irrational military decisions. He might have been commander
        and chief, but, he made irrational decisions based on astrology and
        other occult beliefs, not the advise of his staff. I'm afraid don't see
        Hitler as displaying much of a clear perception of reality anytime
        in his life.


        >I'm going to go out on a limb and say, Yes, Genghis Khan also fits
        >the above profile, even though we don't have accurate records of
        >Genghis Khan's psychological state of mind.  When you talk about the
        >meaningless, wholesale slaughter that Genghis Khan inflicted toward
        >the end of his campaign, destroying Russia and parts of Europe, you
        >would have to conclude that this man was driven by powerful inner
        >demons.  


        Temujin was equally as ruthless from the earliest of his campaigns as
        he was when he was approaching the Danube . Yes, this man was,
        no doubt, drive by demons from the time of the trauma he experienced
        at age 13, but it is also known that this man was also helped along the
        way by a very dark, very scary, priest-conjurer, the mongol Shaman
        Tebtengri. I'd tend to see this as a parallel to Hitler (deals with the devil)
        rather than their psychology.


        There was a futility and strangeness to his expansion that
        >differentiates it from healthy culture, and, at the same time, draws
        >comparison to the Nazi's in the 20s and 30s.  To use a Spenglarian
        >term, Khan did not seek to bring a "civilizing force" to any of his
        >conquered territory, as the great army's of Rome and Greece did when
        >they conquered new lands (or as America is doing now in Afghanistan
        >and Iraq).  Khan's later conquering was completely senseless,
        >without meaning, bloodthirsty, race-driven, egocentric, to the point
        >where his kingdom became almost absurdly violent and unmanageable.  
        >Russia was among the first to break their chains of slavery, and
        >soon others followed, pushing the Mongols clear back into Asia:  
        >proving you can conquer from the horse's back but you can't rule
        >from one.  

        Here GK differs entirely from Hitler. "Culture" figured large in Hitler's
        deluded plans for a thousand year reign of pure blooded Aryans.


        >If someone else has a different take on Genghis Khan I would like to
        >hear it.  This subject fascinates me.

        Well, it terrifies me. Can't help but think of how the same demons
        that rode with the horde are active in the likes of the Za Tawhed Wa
        Jihad Zarqawi group beheading their kidnapped victims with dull
        knifes in Iraq.

        Cheers,
        Paulina
        P.S.
        Just went to the site to post this and read your latest post.
        i agree, I think GK was initiated, and by very dark rites.

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      • DoctorStarman@aol.com
        lilolemissy@sbcglobal.net writes: ... ******I am happy to see the members of the group who get the e-mails in real time suddenly having a conversation. We
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 18, 2004
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          lilolemissy@... writes:

          Social-Artist is so correct that this medium via computers isn't conducive to a fully understandable or "human feeling" sharing of thoughts. Overall, however, I really think we've brought out valid points in sharing-disagreeing-interpretation-sarcasm [the latter probably mine...]




          ******I am happy to see the members of the group who get the e-mails in real time suddenly having a conversation.
             We "wake up" around Michaelmas from a summer "waking-dream", yes? ;-)



          All of us, I somehow feel, have benefitted from these exchanges, and perhaps our visions have widened with more clear understanding gained. The Group has been too silent for too long, but we all have much to share in a right way--we don't help anyone solely by sitting  meditating with hands folded, mouth shut and fingers not typing and exchanging.
          Blessings,
          Sheila
        • DoctorStarman@aol.com
          ... ********Absolutely. I recommend everyone read Hatred s Kingdom by Dore Gold, or any other good book about Saudi Arabia and Wahhabi Islam, to understand
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 18, 2004
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            eyecueco@... writes:
            >Hitler's "social and moral obligation" was the same as it now is for
            >the Islamo-fascists of today, the incineration of the Jews.

            Actually the Wahabbis want all of us in the West dead, jew and gentile.
            The goal is an Islamic world order put in place to serve their monothesitic
            god, and nothing is out of bounds to attain this goal.  The West has not
            been paying attention to what has been actually going on in the world....


            ********Absolutely. I recommend everyone read "Hatred's Kingdom" by Dore Gold, or any other good book about Saudi Arabia and Wahhabi Islam, to understand just what evil ideology has been being spread all over the world for the past 50 years by Saudi oil money.
            -starman
            www.DrStarman.net
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