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RE: [steiner] Misunderstood

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  • eyecueco@netscape.net
    ... So who are you calling a sociopath? This term covers a large continuum and gets thrown around a lot in and up on people inappropriately. For instance,
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 15, 2004
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      Social Artist <social_artist@...> wrote:

      >True sociopaths not only respect power but also crave
      >it and find strength wherever it is being unleashed,
      >both from the left and the right.

      So who are you calling a sociopath? This term covers
      a large continuum and gets thrown around a lot in and
      up on people inappropriately. For instance, Hitler was
      not a sociopath, but Charlie Manson is.

      >
      >I'm curious and optomistic about the outcome of
      >today's events.  Realizing a democratic nation through
      >the unleashing of awesome deadly force from an
      >external party in a place that has no experience
      >living within a democratic society is something that
      >hasn't worked too well in recent memory.


      Guess you have not kept up with what is happening in Afganistan.
      Kaul is no longer a capitol of silence and street beatings of women
      for  not having their berka on straight, Girls are now going to school,
      the soccer field there is now used for athletic games instead of public
      executions (throats slit).

      If you are only watching John Steward and or the MSM no wonder
      you seem confused.

      It is so very sad that there are so very few like Br. Ron.  So many
      don't get it that we are in another world war.  What is especially
      disappointing to me personally is to have discovered, since 9-11
      that the mindset of so many who consider themselves anthroposophists
      is that of left-wing socialism. Socialism is deadly to the developing
      ego consciousness.
       
      We are not in the 6th epoch yet.
      The conquering by the sword for the greater good is still a necessity
      in these times, just as it was when Alexander unleased his
      "awesome deadly force" across most of the known world, and
      King Arthur unleased "awesome deadly force" throughout
      Britain .

      You might possibly consider reading something of Victor
      David Hanson (victorhanson.com).   He knows a thing or two
      about both the classic world, a lot about warfare, and has
      something intelligent to say about the state of things today.
      He's not an anthropop, but, it is interesting to discover that
      he says essentially the same thing, from a secular voice,
      that Johannes Walter Stein said, (i.e., that this confrontation
      with the East at the end of the 20th Century) is a battle that
      must be won if the world is to progress onward rather than fall
      back into a tragic dark age.  

      One of the sorriest points missed by the bleeding heart liberal in his
      or her blinding, thought-stopping hatred for 'Dubya' is that the time
      has come for the East to be brought into the 21st Century, and if the
      current campaign against the Islamic terrorist, (which I am absolutely
      convinced is the repetition of the Battle of Salamis predicted by Stein)
      meets with failure, then the chance for the East to move on from tribal,
      group ego consciousness will be lost, with the gravest of consequences
      for the West and civilization in general.

      It is really important for those who call themselves anthopops to remember
      that these conflicts arise first in the higher worlds, and are then played
      out down here below in this sad, broken domain.  It's not nice, it even
      sucks, but, that's the game and the one that we are stuck in for a long
      time to come. (Another reference to ponder is Trithemius and what he
      tells us about what happens during the Time Reign of the various
      archangels).

      Paulina

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    • Social Artist
      Pauline- I got the word sociopath from Mr. Morrell s posting. His words were: True sociopathic personalities who have no regard for humanity walk among us.
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 15, 2004
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        Pauline-

        I got the word "sociopath" from Mr. Morrell's posting.
        His words were:

        "True sociopathic personalities who have no regard for
        humanity walk among us. And they can't be subdued
        with "gentle healing," just as the Nazi's couldn't, or
        Genghis Khan. They only respect one thing. Power."

        I was not intending to contradict Mr. Morrell's
        statements with my own by responding to it. As you
        demonstrate, sociopath was not the best word which
        could have been used in relation to the Nazis and
        Genghis Khan.

        I said specifically that I was "curious and optomistic
        about today's events." I was not disregarding the
        current state of affairs in Afganistan by stating that
        we are not yet out of the woods. Recent history has
        shown that our task is difficult, which is something
        we've all been saying in one form or another. Stating
        that we have our work cut out for us is not the same
        as saying we're doomed to failure or that the work
        isn't worthy of completion.

        I don't appreciate being directly attacked on what I
        have said without a full understanding of my position.
        In emphasizing caution, I am not encouraging defeat
        or retreat in this struggle.

        I'm saddened to see that little can come in the way of
        elevated discourse in regard to current events in this
        forum. I don't believe that I've contradicted Br.
        Ron's statements in any way by my postings, and yet
        others see fit to attack me for perceived views that I
        do not hold. It is a wise thing to be careful to be
        sure the attacks we make on one another are reasoned
        and justified and not a reaction to a perceived threat
        that may not exist.

        I enjoy experiencing other people's passions and
        positions on these serious issues. I'm thankful
        you've opened yourselves up to me without knowing much
        about me at all, allowing me to see where you're
        coming from. Some of us are stuck in our good ways
        and have a tendency to get a little worked up, but I
        value what I read on the site and work to grasp what
        people are writing as best I can, even when I'm not
        sure I completely understand or agree with everything
        that I'm reading, and even when the responses I
        receive to my posts are intended to be hurtful or
        demeaning in a way that my original posts were not. I
        am convinced that some of the nastier tones in the
        broader dialogue could have been avoided without
        losing the intended point.

        After all, I'm not the guy on the street shouting
        antiwar statements at the rally of the Socialist
        Party. Despite what some have insinuated, I'm really
        not. I'm just struggling to learn what other's
        opinions are on these matters and explore new sources
        of information. I'm coming to the forum as an eager
        student, not an electronic terrorist.

        I hope I've made a little sense through all this.
        George




        > >I'm curious and optomistic about the outcome of
        > >today's events. �Realizing a democratic nation
        > through
        > >the unleashing of awesome deadly force from an
        > >external party in a place that has no experience
        > >living within a democratic society is something
        > that
        > >hasn't worked too well in recent memory.
        >
        >
        > Guess you have not kept up with what is happening in
        > Afganistan.
        > Kaul is no longer a capitol of silence and street
        > beatings of women
        > for� not having their berka on straight, Girls are
        > now going to school,
        > the soccer field there is now used for athletic
        > games instead of public
        > executions (throats slit).
        >
        > If you are only watching John Steward and or the MSM
        > no wonder
        > you seem confused.
        >
        > It is so very sad that there are so very few like
        > Br. Ron. �So many
        > don't get it that we are in another world war. �What
        > is especially
        > disappointing to me personally is to have
        > discovered, since 9-11
        > that the mindset of so many who consider themselves
        > anthroposophists
        > is that of left-wing socialism. Socialism is deadly
        > to the developing
        > ego consciousness.
        > �
        > We are not in the 6th epoch yet.
        > The conquering by the sword for the greater good is
        > still a necessity
        > in these times, just as it was when Alexander
        > unleased his
        > "awesome deadly force" across most of the known
        > world, and
        > King Arthur unleased "awesome deadly force"
        > throughout
        > Britain .
        >
        > You might possibly consider reading something of
        > Victor
        > David Hanson (victorhanson.com). � He knows a thing
        > or two
        > about both the classic world, a lot about warfare,
        > and has
        > something intelligent to say about the state of
        > things today.
        > He's not an anthropop, but, it is interesting to
        > discover that
        > he says essentially the same thing, from a secular
        > voice,
        > that Johannes Walter Stein said, (i.e., that this
        > confrontation
        > with the East at the end of the 20th Century) is a
        > battle that
        > must be won if the world is to progress onward
        > rather than fall
        > back into a tragic dark age. �
        >
        > One of the sorriest points missed by the bleeding
        > heart liberal in his
        > or her blinding, thought-stopping hatred for
        > 'Dubya' is that the time
        > has come for the East to be brought into the 21st
        > Century, and if the
        > current campaign against the Islamic terrorist,
        > (which I am absolutely
        > convinced is the repetition of the Battle of Salamis
        > predicted by Stein)
        > meets with failure, then the chance for the East to
        > move on from tribal,
        > group ego consciousness will be lost, with the
        > gravest of consequences
        > for the West and civilization in general.
        >
        > It is really important for those who call themselves
        > anthopops to remember
        > that these conflicts arise first in the higher
        > worlds, and are then played
        > out down here below in this sad, broken domain.
        > �It's not nice, it even
        > sucks, but, that's the game and the one that we are
        > stuck in for a long
        > time to come. (Another reference to ponder is
        > Trithemius and what he
        > tells us about what happens during the Time Reign of
        > the various
        > archangels).
        >
        > Paulina
        >
        >
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        > Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
        > As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at
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        >
        > Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
        >
        > New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
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        >




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      • DoctorStarman@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/14/2004 5:54:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ******* I know of the most famous case. The shortest verse of the Bible is Jesus wept
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 18, 2004
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          In a message dated 10/14/2004 5:54:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, social_artist@... writes:

          I pondered this following this afternoon and decided
          to put it on the forum.  Per the third paragraph of
          this e-mail, if you have knowledge of instances when
          Steiner discussed the motivation for Jesus's weeping,
          I'd be most interested in learning of them.


          ******* I know of the most famous case. The shortest verse of the Bible is "Jesus wept" ----at the raising of Lazarus. It was said that way to draw attention to the fact that the Christ was doing something special: through his love for the man Lazarus, he was initiating him, just as the initiates in olden times used the power of love to keep a candidate alive as they separated his etheric body from his physical one, in memory of which the initiate was afterwards known as "the Loved One." This man, Lazarus, later became the apostle John, always referred to as the disciple the Lord "loved."

          -starman
          www.DrStarman.net
        • DoctorStarman@aol.com
          ... *******Well, my memory goes back to Japan in 1945. I d say the US did a pretty good job of transforming that completely undemocratic nation after using
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 18, 2004
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            social_artist@... writes:
            True sociopaths not only respect power but also crave
            it and find strength wherever it is being unleashed,
            both from the left and the right.
            I'm curious and optomistic about the outcome of
            today's events.  Realizing a democratic nation through
            the unleashing of awesome deadly force from an
            external party in a place that has no experience
            living within a democratic society is something that
            hasn't worked too well in recent memory...


            *******Well, my memory goes back to Japan in 1945. I'd say the US did a pretty good job of transforming that completely undemocratic nation after using deadly force to overwhelm it. Its women, for instance, had as little freedom as those in Afghanistan and Iraq did until this year.

               I think we need to remember that freedom is the "zeitgeist" or spirit of the age, being able to act freely out of your intuition of the right thing to do. Even if group-souls of nations have no tradition of freedom of religion, self-government, etc., the yearning of all human beings in our time is to be free, and the Zeitgeist is far more powerful than the Archangels of each country. If we work with that yearning, give people the means to determine their own lives,  it will succeed sooner or later.


                I'dsay we're at the start of a Third World War the past 3 years, one that will last at least as long as the Cold War, a generation or two. But as long as we stay on the side of peoples' demand for freedom, we'll win.
            -starman
            www.DrStarman.net
          • DoctorStarman@aol.com
            ... *******It s the reason why I have not been very active with the Society in the US, and not at all with the Social Science section, despite being a
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 18, 2004
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              >I'm curious and optomistic about the outcome of
              >today's events.  Realizing a democratic nation through
              >the unleashing of awesome deadly force from an
              >external party in a place that has no experience
              >living within a democratic society is something that
              >hasn't worked too well in recent memory.

              eyecueco@... writes:
              Guess you have not kept up with what is happening in Afganistan.
              Kaul is no longer a capitol of silence and street beatings of women
              for  not having their berka on straight, Girls are now going to school,
              the soccer field there is now used for athletic games instead of public
              executions (throats slit).
              If you are only watching John Steward and or the MSM no wonder
              you seem confused.
              It is so very sad that there are so very few like Br. Ron.  So many
              don't get it that we are in another world war.  What is especially
              disappointing to me personally is to have discovered, since 9-11
              that the mindset of so many who consider themselves anthroposophists
              is that of left-wing socialism. Socialism is deadly to the developing
              ego consciousness....


              *******It's the reason why I have not been very active with the Society in the US, and not at all with the Social Science section, despite being a professor of the social sciences: the leftist bias. Socialism is a materialistic-thought-based illusion that anyone on the spiritual path must see through eventually. That so many anthroposophists were rabid leftists was depressing to me when I first found it to be so in the 1980s, and only showed me that they had not really gotten anywhere on the Path yet.



              You might possibly consider reading something of Victor
              David Hanson (victorhanson.com).  He knows a thing or two
              about both the classic world, a lot about warfare, and  has
              something intelligent to say about the state of things today.
              He's not an anthropop, but, it is interesting to discover that
              he says essentially the same thing, from a secular voice,
              that Johannes Walter Stein said,  (i.e., that this confrontation
              with the East at the end of the 20th Century) is a battle that
              must be won if the world is to progress onward rather than fall
              back into a tragic dark age. 
              One  of the sorriest points missed by the bleeding heart liberal in his
              or her blinding,  thought-stopping hatred for 'Dubya' is that the time
              has come for the East to be brought into the 21st Century, and if the
              current campaign against the Islamic terrorist, (which I am absolutely 
              convinced is the repetition of the Battle of Salamis predicted by Stein)
              meets with failure, then the chance for the East to move on from tribal,
              group ego consciousness will be lost, with the gravest of consequences
              for the West and civilization in general.
              It is really important for those who call themselves anthopops to remember
              that these conflicts arise first in the higher worlds, and are then played
              out down here below in this sad, broken domain.  It's not nice, it even
              sucks, but, that's the game and the one that we are stuck in for a long
              time to come.  (Another reference to ponder is Trithemius and what he
              tells us about what happens during the Time Reign of the various
              archangels).
              Paulina


              ********As a matter of fact, by Thithemius von Spondheim's 343-year cycles (which Steiner pointed to), a replay or repeat of the Battle of Salamis, which is to say a catclysmic confrontation between the inividuality-denying East and the individual-affirming West, was forecast for either Sept. 2000 or Sept. 2001, depending how you calculate.
              -starman
              www.DrStarman.net
            • DoctorStarman@aol.com
              In a message dated 10/14/2004 5:44:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... *******Well, it s election time, and Steiner did have a lot to say about the practical
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 18, 2004
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                In a message dated 10/14/2004 5:44:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, social_artist@... writes:


                My goodness, Br. Ron.  You have some interesting
                points, and your exposition is certainly dramatic;
                however, it is my recollection that political
                discussions in this forum were to be avoided.  In the
                end, it seems to me that the scariest part of today's
                political landscape is the apathetic nature of the
                American people, who more and more spend the length of
                their days eating canned foods off of plastic plates
                in front of the television instead of raising their
                children and organizing social events with their
                neighbors.  This is the reason a fellow like Kerry is
                up for the presidency.  It's not as though the guy had
                to burn down the Reichstag.


                *******Well, it's election time, and Steiner did have a lot to say about the practical world of organizing society. I just fear that allowing political discussions will degenerate into arguments and, as they say, creat "much heat but little light."

                    It's amazing how people studying the same material can so easily come to the conclusion that it supports their opinion that one of two candidates is the Devil, while others say the exact same thing is equally clear about his opponent! It all only shows that people haven't really digested the teaching about the Mystery of Evil, that there are two devils. Of any two candidates, I'm sure a case could be made how either of them would advance the cause of evil, because there are two opposite causes of evil.

                -starman
                www.DrStarman.net
              • Renee Lattimore
                Thanks for giving such a eloquent message. On the eve of this election, I have confidence that right will win. Renee Lattimore Br. Ron
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  Thanks for giving such a eloquent message.  On the eve of this election, I have confidence that right will win.
                   
                  Renee Lattimore

                  "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...> wrote:
                   
                  This is just my opinion and good folks can disagree.
                   
                  Qabala is a wonderful spiritual tool because it reveals
                  the location of spiritual shadows.
                   
                  Let's apply this to American politics.
                   
                  John Kerry to be not only and opportunistic machine
                  but a full blown traitor....both in the 70s and now.

                  First, look into his face. It doesn't take a Cagliostro to see
                  he only occasionally departs from the haunting image of 'just
                  another genderless, talking head.'
                   
                  Clever?...Yes....to the point of demagoguery but more importantly
                  he lacks that essential soul quality associated with a vulnerable
                  conscience. Kerry seems blissfully free of both passion and heart,
                  Bereft of any genuine 'fire in the belly' he lives up to the
                  Qabalistic term
                  'qliphoth'.....which is but a shell.

                  Kerry gets his juice from professional victims and survives
                  politically by simple negativity and doubt...by making all things
                  pertaining to the US an "error."

                  His opportunistic grandstanding in the Seventies torpedoed our
                  "might for right" and served to lead to the wholesale
                  slaughter of nearly a million Vietnamese after the war...to say
                  nothing of setting up Pol Pot's evil rampage in Cambodia.

                  Had we been truly the UNITED States in winning that conflict,
                  there would have been far fewer human casualties and we would
                  have established a bright bastion of freedom in Indochina.
                  (A case in point is what we saw taking root this weekend in Afghanistan,
                  sporting endless lines of men and women risking life and limb to get
                  to vote...... for the first time ever!)

                  Regardless of the rampant left wing cynicism, this war
                  aint all just about money and oil. It is not even about Iraq or
                  the Middle East. It's a cosmic power grab chronicled in the texts of
                  every major religion,... albeit by different names.

                  There are parasitic forces tempting us from our bravery
                  and degrading our duty; our heavenly mandate of sacrifice and
                  promulgation of  'Good' performed in manly and knightly ways.
                  If this vampirism succeeds, all Life on Earth will cease.

                  As a man, I see ridding the world of parasitic tyranny is a
                  chivalrous duty. Chivalry is a religion not unlike the Samurai.
                  But "Might for Right" is a creed grasped only by practitioners
                  of TRUE self sacrificial Love, a concept for which the political left
                  gives lip service but has absolutely no grasp.

                  Kerry cannot win. ....He MUST NOT win.

                  Fortunately, Americans are ultimately driven by an innate sense of right
                  and wrong. I trust us to distinguish between the verbose, reflected specter
                  of 'lunar light' in contrast to the real thing. True Beings of Light demonstrate
                  Spirit and self reliance, not social dependency. They display the self generating
                  Solar Light emanating from yes, the Sun of God.

                  Remember King Arthur had an effeminate offspring like our slick
                  friend. Mordred was massaged, oiled and pussified daily by his
                  mother, Morgan LeFay. This lunar witch was Arthur's sister
                  with whom he slept. Mordred, the incestual offspring of this union,
                  ultimately brought down Arthur's solar kingdom which in truth was
                  initiated by the Christos.

                  This archetypal gender battle repeating itself once again
                  on the stage of American and global politics. The I-Ching has a
                  hexagram ('KUN...The Receptive...with a moving line at the top)
                  which says:
                      "In the top place the Yin (female) element should yield to the light.
                      If it attempts to maintain a position to which it is not entitled
                      and to rule instead of serving, it draws down on itself the anger
                      of the strong. A struggle ensues in which it is overthrown,
                      with injury, however, to both sides. Therefore, it is a sign
                      that in unnatural contest both primal powers (Male and Female)
                      suffer injury."

                  This gender confusion of Yang in relation to Yin is symbolized in
                  every religion including the story in Genesis with Adam disconnecting
                  from his Reason..his Oversoul in order to follow Eve's impulsive Nature
                  worship.

                  This sounds sexist...but it isn't. Nor am I suggesting
                  the masculine principle is somehow 'better' than the feminine.
                  It's just that each has it's appropriate place within ourselves
                  and within cosmic order.
                  It simply means that Reason should guide impulse and emotion
                  in each of us.... at all times. Reason is "The Head of the House"

                  Kerry is a Massachusetts 'dandy' who has doubtless been
                  circumcised with pinking shears.

                  His politics and demeanor are much like his manicure...
                  slick...polished and preened strictly for public approval.

                  A glib wordsmith he is, a knightly warrior he aint....

                  If he ever did rescue the king's maiden daughter, he
                  would not have done it for Chivalry ...nor even because it was the
                  right thing to do. He would have done it to win the king's daughter
                  .........and to latch onto his estate.

                  Behold Mordred!

                  This terrorist thing upon us now is VERY huge.
                  It may not live up to Rudolph Steiner's 'War of All Against All'
                  but there definitely is a global religious Jihad/Crusade afoot and it is
                  also cosmic. It is the struggle between the forces of civilization .....
                  .....and Chaos itself.

                  Remember the 'Never Ending Story?'  This drama is unfolding again.
                  "The 'Nothing'" approaches and there are two options left to us:
                  1. Fight without quarter.
                  2. Deny it and choose "peace at any price."
                   
                  I for one, choose the former because the latter is the
                  sure recipe for "short term pleasure, long term pain."

                  Hairspray and a razor cuts somehow lose their meaning when
                  adorning a severed head.

                  Br. Ron


                  Post to steiner@egroups.comSearch the archives of the group at:
                  http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

                  Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                  http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html

                  ommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                  http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html





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