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Re: [steiner] Horoscope questions

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  • Suzanne Walker
    Starman- I would like very much if you went through- with drawings and diagrams as you suggest- the astronomy involved in casting a chart (on the list). Also I
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
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      Starman-   
      I would like very much if you went through- with drawings and diagrams as you suggest- the astronomy involved in casting a chart (on the list).
       
          Also I wonder how you go about doing a reading for another person (do you do that?) having taken in anthroposophy.  Do you use the Sidereal system? Do you ever work with the Hermetic chart (from Powell)? Do you use the Tropical zodiac at all? Also, do you find that anthroposophists are open to astrology, given what RS said about it?  In other words, how has traditional astrology changed for you since being exposed to Steiner?
       
          Also I cannot seem to understand how it can be that the Sun is under the influence of Aquarius now- from Feb 8th- to March 9th- as RS says in the calendar for 1912-13. Sidereally the Sun appears to be in front of the constellation of the Goat still---- til Feb 14-15 (roughly - I didn't check exactly). Is this due to the unequal constellation problem?  RS says Aries begins March 9th. I do not get it.  Is there a way to show through pictures how this is so? Or point me to Vreede or Suchre.  This is not how I learned it from William Bento and Robert Powell. 
       
      Thanks for taking the time to answer any or all of these questions.
       
      Suzanne
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:21 PM
      Subject: Re: [steiner] Horoscope questions

      gringoire@... writes:
      It could be said that Dr Steiner laid the foundations for an approach to Astrology that befits a modern humanity, one no longer willing to take on a spiritual conception of the world on trust.  I include myself in this definition -- I am a former atheist, and a person who has had continually to question many long-standing prejudices and assumptions.
      In pursuit of a fuller conception of Astrology, there is the further question of the horoscope or birth chart.  Regarding this, Dr Steiner had less to say (at least as far as I am aware) than of the broader, more esoteric aspects.  So in order to work towards an understanding of this aspect of Astrology, it will be necessary to turn to other sources, and to adopt an attitude of 'provisional open-mindedness' or 'suspended judgement' towards them.  And this poses a problem.  Being willing to suspend judgement means being prepared to hold off criticism for at least a certain period of time, and to consider something that otherwise one would normally reject out of hand.  But being open-minded does not mean being open to any old nonsense.
      So I am asking for a little advice.  Has anyone here come across a book (or books) outlining the rules of constructing a horoscope which they regard as well founded or at least worthy of considered attention?  I am even willing to consider a book which is flawed or which has elements in it that are not quite right -- provided there is some value in it.
      The alternative would be to ask Dr Starman to supply such information.  (After recent attacks, however, he may feel less than inclined to put his views on the subject up for scrutiny).  Either way, some pointers from others on this list would be appreciated.



      *******I'm used to attacks of one sort or another as an occultist----you have to develop a thick skin. Criticism is always welcome when it is constructive, it just sometimes isn't; as we just read in the very start of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, we're supposed to watch over ourselves in that regard.

          What can be done about how to cast a horoscope is simply to describe the astronomy involved: it is a matter of pure mathematics and astronomy. It's just that people come to slightly different opinions about how to view matters--- as for instance in deciding how to divide up the apparent circle or sphere of the heavens. I could place a series of diagrams /drawings here to lead us through the matter, if people desire.

         Just as studying the facts of natural science with Imaginative Cognition enables one to arrive at the pictures in the Akasha described by the Doctor in Cosmic Memory and An Outline of Occult Science, so clearly picturing the astronomical realities while practicing Imagination exercises leads quite naturally to the astrological insight. Once again, a great example may be found in the letters of Dr. Elizabeth Vreede, Steiner's direct pupil in matters astronomical and astrological, recently published by the Anthroposophic Press as "Anthroposophy and Astrology". Later exemplars are Willi Sucher, Robert Powell,  and Brian Gray, about whom I urge all to read and form your own opinions if you're interested in the working out of this new 'astrosophy' or star-wisdom.

         Likewise there are, besides the many, many indications in Steiner's lectures, many astrology-related parts of eurythmy and speech-formation, projective geometry, bio-dynamic agriculture, the sensitive crystallization & capillary dynamolysis work of Pfeiffer and the Koliskos, the work of Margaret Roessler and others relating to the Soul-Calendar, and then Helen Straker, Norman Davidson, Joachim Schultze, and the astrology of the temperaments and 'planetary types' used in Waldorf Education.

      Dr. Starman
      http://www.DrStarman.net


      Post to steiner@egroups.comSearch the archives of the group at:
      http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

      Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
      http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html

      ommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
      http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html




    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/11/2004 4:46:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... *******The casting of a horoscope involves only astronomy, and can be understood by anyone.
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 15, 2004
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        In a message dated 2/11/2004 4:46:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, zwalker@... writes:

        Starman-   

        I would like very much if you went through- with drawings and diagrams as you suggest- the astronomy involved in casting a chart (on the list).




            *******The casting of a horoscope involves only astronomy, and can be understood by anyone. We'll start with what you can observe with the naked eye, from the earth's surface. The diagram above is approximately the sky in the Northern Hemisphere now, looking to the South shortly after sunset.

            This is what we should start with, and instead of only seeing the diagram you should go out at sunset each clear night and find South and look, and strive to understand what you're seeing.

           This is especially so because you are looking at a flat two-dimensional representation here of what's a 3-dimensional reality. The sky appears to be a half-sphere over our heads, like a gigantic bowl turned upside-down over us. Two- dimensional drawings can't really depict it. What you must do is transform the 2D diagram into the enormous 3-D reality above you that it represents.

           If you look south at sunset, the brilliant "star" above where the sun has set (the southwest) will be the planet Venus, the yellow blob on the right in the drawing (it actually will usually be a brilliant white).

            A bit higher up in the sky can be found the reddish dot that is the planet Mars, not nearly as bright. It's not as easy to find so don't worry if you can't at first. Below and to the left of that is the gigantic constellation of Orion the Hunter, which many people know from his famous belt of 3 stars in a row. Above him, the bright orange-red star is the Eye of the Bull of Taurus; to his lower left, the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (not drawn).

           To his left but high up (in the southeast) is yellowish Saturn, next to the stars Castor and Pollux, the Twins of Gemini.

           What I've drawn here looks like a flat picture, but go outside and see the real thing and you'll see what I mean by how it's curved, like looking at the inside of an upside-down bowl above us.

        To Be Continued
        Dr. Starman
        http://www.DrStarman.net
      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        ... *******I do indeed do readings , by donation, which I put on tape. I ve been doing so for 25 years. I use both the tropical and the sidereal zodiac, as
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 16, 2004
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          zwalker@... writes:
          Starman-   

          I would like very much if you went through- with drawings and diagrams as you suggest- the astronomy involved in casting a chart (on the list).
           


          ******I hope you'll participate, then, now that I've started.


          >>>  Also I wonder how you go about doing a reading for another person (do you do that?) having taken in anthroposophy.  Do you use the Sidereal system? Do you ever work with the Hermetic chart (from Powell)? Do you use the Tropical zodiac at all?



          *******I do indeed do 'readings', by donation, which I put on tape. I've been doing so for 25 years. I use both the tropical and the sidereal zodiac, as Steiner did, though most often the tropical. I have experimented with a variety of techniques, from Hindu astrology, Arabic, etc.; but mostly I have just worked it out for myself from anthroposophy, the Edgar Cayce Readings and my own intuition.


          >>>Also, do you find that anthroposophists are open to astrology, given what RS said

          about it?  In other words, how has traditional astrology changed for you since being exposed to Steiner?



          *******They certainly are not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I learned my 'astrology' at the same time as my Steiner, so it didn't change. I'm a case of what the Doctor called "self-initiation." I have always been able to see for myself. It's good to absorb the doctor's warnings about false astrology, but I work with the real thing. Unfortunately many anthroposophists have very undeveloped intuition and too much logic. They hold themselves back from seeing, and so sometimes there is a bit of jealousy towards any who do not.
              It hasn't stopped many of the ones here in the US from coming to me for readings for themselves, however! ;->

           
          >>   I cannot seem to understand how it can be that the Sun is under the influence of Aquarius now- from Feb 8th- to March 9th- as RS says in the calendar for 1912-13. Sidereally the Sun appears to be in front of the constellation of the Goat still---- til Feb 14-15 (roughly - I didn't check exactly). Is this due to the unequal constellation problem?  RS says Aries begins March 9th. I do not get it.  Is there a way to show through pictures how this is so? Or point me to Vreede or Suchre.  This is not how I learned it from William Bento and Robert Powell. 
          Thanks for taking the time to answer any or all of these questions. 
          Suzanne


          ********The spiritual influence of the zodiac is a different thing from the visible stars. We only see them as points of light because of the Luciferic influence; this is not their real nature. Steiner, for instance, said the Age of Pisces began about 1413 AD. The vernal equinox, however, began occurring in the group of stars we now call Pisces the Fishes some time in the early Christian era, by any astronomical reckoning. Neither by using a tropical, 12-equal-sign zodiac or the unequal 'sidereal' one of the visible stars can we arrive at that.
               The dates for the spiritual effect of the 12 constellations are written on the hand-drawn copies of the 12 zodiac images I was given many years ago, which came from Dornach, perhaps from Margaret Roessler. In working with them, I've seen confirmation of changes occurring at those times each year. I assume they must have come from Steiner originally.
              And by the way, that's PISCES that they say starts March 9th--- not Aries.
          -starman
          http://www.DrStarman.net
        • Pierre Gringoire
          Many thanks to Dr Starman for his horoscope postings. If I m not responding, it s because I m listening.
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 17, 2004
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            Many thanks to Dr Starman for his horoscope postings.  If I'm not responding, it's because I'm listening.
          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            ... -star man
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 17, 2004
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              In a message dated 2/17/2004 1:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, gringoire@... writes:


              Many thanks to Dr Starman for his horoscope postings.  If I'm not responding, it's because I'm listening.



              *******Well, listen, and go outside and observe, and think. It will all start being clear.


              Let's see how big this is -at 30% original size. I've noticed the diagrams seem to be rather large when they go through.

              -star man

              http://www.DrStarman.net
            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              ******* Let s try 20 % of full size for the sky diagram and see if it isn t too big. Astronomy is a complex subject, but the elementary parts can be grasped
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 17, 2004
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                ******* Let's try 20 % of full size for the sky diagram and see if it isn't too big.

                    Astronomy is a complex subject, but the elementary parts can be grasped easily by anyone. What we're concerned with here, at first, is just what you see happen over any one day or night.

                   If you use the diagram and your observation outside, you'll see that at sunset Venus is at the 2 O'Clock position, Mars at the 1 O'Clock position, Taurus and the Pleiades at the 12 O'Clock position, and Saturn (in the constellation Gemini) at 11:00.

                   Now, if you look on any clear night two hours AFTER sunset, you'll see that Venus has gone down to the 3 O'Clock position and will soon disappear, if it hasn't already; while Mars has moved from about 1:00 to 2:00, Taurus from 12:00 to 1:00, and Saturn and Gemini from 11:00 to 12:00. In other words, they have all moved one "hour" on the clock, clockwise. A brilliant white "star" will now be at the 9 o'clock position in the East, the planet Jupiter. It was invisible below the horizon at sunset before, but has now risen. (I'll do another diagram showing this all.)

                -starman

                http://www.DrStarman.net
              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                ******* Let s try 10 % of full size for Diagram #1. (When I receive it from Yahoo, it s back to 100%. Sorry if it s too large for people.) In the first
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 17, 2004
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                  ******* Let's try 10 % of full size for Diagram #1. (When I receive it from Yahoo, it's back to 100%. Sorry if it's too large for people.)



                    In the first diagram, at sunset, as I said, Venus is at the 2 O'Clock position, Mars at the 1 O'Clock position, Taurus and the Pleiades are at the 12 O'Clock position, and Saturn (in the constellation Gemini) is at 11:00.

                    Now, if you look on any clear night two hours AFTER sunset (Diagram #2), you'll see that Venus has gone down to the 3 O'Clock position and will soon disappear, if it hasn't already; while Mars has moved from about 1:00 to 2:00, Taurus from 12:00 to 1:00, and Saturn and Gemini from 11:00 to 12:00. In other words, they have all moved one "hour" on the clock, clockwise. A brilliant white "star" will now be at the 9 o'clock position in the East, the planet Jupiter. It was invisible below the horizon at sunset before, but has now risen.



                  The sky turns one full turn around us every 24 hours, so one-twelfth section moves one clock-face "hour" every two hours. As parts of it go into the lower half of the clock they become invisible. The sun at midnight, for instance, is right beneath our feet, while on the other side of the world it's noon.
                  -starman





                  http://www.DrStarman.net
                • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                  I am listening as well. What would be a good start (book or lecture) Steiner or not for a neophyte to the astrology subject? Also I would be interested in
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 17, 2004
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                    I am listening as well.  What would be a good start (book or lecture) Steiner or not for a neophyte to the astrology subject?   Also I would be interested in getting a reading done maybe sometime?  What is the average donation?  Chantel
                  • s
                    ... I wanted to share a quick thing. Just before sunrise, when there is just a tad of the purple turning to light blue. To me a most remarkable phenomena
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 18, 2004
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                      On Feb 17, 2004, at 5:27 PM, DRStarman2001@... wrote:

                      > *******Well, listen, and go outside and observe, and think. It will
                      > all start being clear


                      I wanted to share a quick thing. Just before sunrise, when there is
                      just a tad of the purple turning to light blue. To me a most
                      remarkable phenomena occurs. This is especially easy to observe with
                      the moon setting in the west as the sun rises in the east, and most of
                      all with as many planets also in the sky the better.

                      It is kind of hard to describe, but something to do with the lighting
                      at this hour it makes it really, at least to me, really easy to
                      actually see what appear to be orbits of the planets. For example with
                      the moon and a planet next to each other it allows you to see an
                      amazing 'depth' to each body, it seems to accentuate the appropriate
                      distances relative to the distant stars. It really is amazing.

                      one year we had 3 or 4 or 5 planets lined up together at that time in
                      the morning. it was spectacular.

                      =)
                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                      In a message dated 2/18/2004 10:35:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... *******I also have observed things like the background field around the planets brighten
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 18, 2004
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                        In a message dated 2/18/2004 10:35:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, sirius777@... writes:

                        I wanted to share a quick thing.  Just before sunrise, when there is
                        just a tad of the purple turning to light blue.  To me a most
                        remarkable phenomena occurs.  This is especially easy to observe with
                        the moon setting in the west as the sun rises in the east, and most of
                        all with as many planets also in the sky the better.

                        It is kind of hard to describe, but something to do with the lighting
                        at this hour it makes it really, at least to me, really easy to
                        actually see what appear to be orbits of the planets.  For example with
                        the moon and a planet next to each other it allows you to see an
                        amazing 'depth' to each body, it seems to accentuate the appropriate
                        distances relative to the distant stars. It really is amazing.

                        one year we had 3 or 4 or 5 planets lined up together at that time in
                        the morning. it was spectacular.

                        =)


                        *******I also have observed things like the background "field" around the planets brighten when two or more are near each other. The professional astronomers, of course, say this doesn't happen. So-called "scientists" today are all too ready to dismiss anyone's direct experience with their dogma that says "it can't be so." Not doing that is, you may recall from our Christmas study, one of the 6 preparatory exercises.
                             200 years ago they dismissed all reports of fallen meteors by saying there could not be rocks falling from the sky because there were no rocks in the sky to fall. Plus ca change....

                           I'll have some more to say about the planets visible in the night sky now relative to this.
                        Dr. Starman
                        http://www.DrStarman.net
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