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Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why Politics is Off Topic

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    mtelford@bigpond.com writes: ... ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is captive here. You re also welcome to start your own list if
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 3, 2003
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      mtelford@... writes:

      I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't we. You can now delete me from this list.
      MT


      ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is captive here. You're also welcome to start your own list if you don't like the moderator of this one.

          If you try to, though, I'll just give you advice that a wise man once told me, and that I try to remember---- you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

      Starman


        Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view within the anthroposophical movement, and Steiner said right in our statutes that politics is not the task of the Anthroposophical Society.

       
      Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any kind of sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among its tasks."
      Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of Anthroposophy, Letters to Members, 13 Jan. 1924.


      Dr. Starman
      http://www.DrStarman.net
    • MT
      Ditto. MT ... From: DRStarman2001@aol.com To: steiner@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 3, 2003
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        Ditto.
        MT
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why Politics is Off Topic

        mtelford@... writes:

        I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't we. You can now delete me from this list.
        MT


        ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is captive here. You're also welcome to start your own list if you don't like the moderator of this one.

            If you try to, though, I'll just give you advice that a wise man once told me, and that I try to remember---- you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

        Starman


          Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view within the anthroposophical movement, and Steiner said right in our statutes that politics is not the task of the Anthroposophical Society.

         
        Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any kind of sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among its tasks."
        Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of Anthroposophy, Letters to Members, 13 Jan. 1924.


        Dr. Starman

        http://www.DrStarman.net

        Post to steiner@egroups.com

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        Search the archives of the group at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

        Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



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      • judson chambers
        Wow. what an exchange. and a demonstration of what can happen when concepts are unlawfully smuggled into an appropriate mix of percept and concept. Let me add
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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          Wow… what an exchange… and a demonstration of what can happen when concepts are unlawfully smuggled into an appropriate mix of percept and concept.

           

          Let me add here that the three-fold idea, inclusive of the economic portion of same, will never be accomplished by any of the renditions of American (or otherwise) social context as long as the “political” sphere usurps and controls the issuance of currency; currency (i.e. MONey, a monad) being the all pervasive aspect of the economic portion of the trifold idea.

           

          The confusion inherent in the three-fold idea is always imminent because apparently the disposition of currency is ever asked to be subordinate to the whim of the “political” element in the three-fold idea. This represents a very key breach of the independence of each arm of the three-fold idea.

           

          Because of this breach there are plea’s to deny advocacy of economic interests being construed to be of a direction away from the idea of economic freedom; and at the same time there are plea’s to affirm advocacy of the breach by continued political intrusion (I refer to it as concept smuggling) in the economic arm of the three-fold idea by subordinating a legitimate element of the economic arm to the political: regulation of currency.

           

          This being described, is and will ever be an ongoing source of rancor between aspiring thinkers (anthroposophic or otherwise) and a retardant against the adoption of an anthroposophic-trifold idea in any real human society only because of the “political” manipulation of “economic” elements.

           

          Regards

          Judson

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: MT [mailto:mtelford@...]
          Sent
          :
          Wednesday, December 03, 2003 7:34 PM
          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why Politics is Off Topic

           

          I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't we. You can now delete me from this list.

          MT

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:03 PM

          Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why Politics is Off Topic

           

          plong_plong@... writes:

          ....I have read most of Steiner's lectures on the sciences and his ideas on the
          three-fold social order. I find his lecture on World Economy very
          interesting. There are a number of people who are promoting his economic
          ideas both in the grassroots level and on the academic arena like Nicanor
          Perlas in South East Asia and Christopher Budd in the UK.
          All the best,
          plong




          ******** I have to say that much of what I hear from people like Perlas has little relation to Steiner's "Threefold Social Order" ideas, in my opinion, but rather is people using his name to spread their own, quite different, opinions. For instance, Steiner advocated an economic sphere quite distinct and separate from the political state, which would follow only its own (purely economic) laws --- and so also with the "cultural" sphere (so, for instance, the Waldorf Schools are private schools, not run by governments). But it appears to me that many of the people saying they follow Steiner want MORE control of the economy by the government, not less. ;-> [Not to mention the anti-Western Civilization bias and blindness to the current war of Wahabbi Islam on civilization, which Steiner predicted as the result of the rise of the Sun Demon Sorath 666 in 1998, as we've discussed here.]
             I find, in my experience for many years now, that often they are just socialists or communists with a thin "coating of Steiner" on top, and once you draw them out in discussion, out come the Marxist slogans that show what they really think--- which is that the government should take over the economy "for everybody's good". That is definitely NOT the teaching of Rudolf Steiner!
          -Starman



          mtelford@... writes:


          Nicholas Perlas is a champion of Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy's life blood is meeting people face to face and the credibitlity comes from the connections of people to people. I cannot concur with your assessment of Nicholas Perley. It only puts your credibility at odds with his.
          MT




          ******* Oh my, look at the negative tone already. Well, as a student of anthroposophy for over 30 years I would be more than happy to test my credibility against Mr. Perlas ---except that I'm sure that would have nothing to do with Steiner, but rather would be the signal for lots of political rhetoric that would generate much heat but shed little light.

              We are supposed to rule our lives with our self-conscious Egos, not let our astral bodies with their emotions rule us, which is what hate- and envy-filled political screaming seems to me to be----and that's why politics is off-topic here.

             Mr. Perlas' writings which I have seen are heavy on politics, and exceedingly light on anthroposophy. They are filled with references to 'globalization' (removal of tariffs and other barriers to free trade) as if it was an evil thing; and demands for only what he considers 'sustainable development' in the world---- neither of which is found in anthroposophy.

             One can find people calling themselves anthroposophists who are completely against genetic engineering, computers in schools, etc.--- but other anthroposophists with quite the opposite feelings. Despite the attempts of anyone to make this movement into one with a dogma all must agree with, it's not, and people have different opinions within it on every subject under the sun--- as well as about other anthroposophists. ;->

              I could just pronounce here, for instance, "Sergei Prokofieff is a champion of anthroposophy and to be an anthroposophist you must agree with him!" and I imagine I would get some quite varied responses.

              Years ago I was privileged to know some of the people who founded the Green Party in
          Europe, many of whom were anthroposophists. Just because they were, had no relation to their far-left political ideas, and the Green Party has no 'threefold' or anthroposophical basis --- although that didn't keep perennial political candidate and flake Lyndon LaRouche from demonizing the Society as some wierd cult behind the Greens when he found out several of the founders were anthropops!

             People can be students of Steiner and also have political ideas quite far from spiritual science. They can also be convinced, as I saw with some of the Greens, that their political ideas are derived from spiritual science, and are objectively the only possible way to view things---in other words, "politically correct" --- when actually to anyone else it's obvious that they imported their biases into the study of spiritual science and then imagined they found them there.

             Feelings aroused by politics are as strong as they are irrational. The Greens were absolutely convinced that Ronald Reagan was the doom of mankind---- and they were wrong and he was right; and the people of
          Eastern Europe are now free because he did what he thought was right instead of listening to them. Sometimes, as scripture says, "That is the way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is death."

             Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view within the anthroposophical movement, and Steiner said right in our statutes that politics is not the task of the Anthroposophical Society.

            
          Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any kind of sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among its tasks."
          Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of Anthroposophy, Letters to Members,
          13 Jan. 1924.

          Dr. Starman

           

        • Joel
          Say, MT - if you do start your own list, let me know, would you? I would happily join. Joel ... do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are -
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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            Say, MT - if you do start your own list, let me know, would you? I
            would happily join.
            Joel
            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "MT" <mtelford@b...> wrote:
            > Ditto.
            > MT
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: DRStarman2001@a...
            > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:43 PM
            > Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why Politics is Off Topic
            >
            >
            > mtelford@b... writes:
            >
            > I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to
            do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't
            we. You can now delete me from this list.
            > MT
            >
            >
            >
            > ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is
            captive here. You're also welcome to start your own list if you don't
            like the moderator of this one.
            >
            > If you try to, though, I'll just give you advice that a wise
            man once told me, and that I try to remember---- you attract more
            flies with honey than vinegar.
            >
            > Starman
            >
            >
            >
            > Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list
            if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no
            one political point of view within the anthroposophical movement, and
            Steiner said right in our statutes that politics is not the task of
            the Anthroposophical Society.
            >
            > Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any
            kind of sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among
            its tasks."
            > Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of
            Anthroposophy, Letters to Members, 13 Jan. 1924.
            >
            > Dr. Starman
            >
            > http://www.DrStarman.net
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Post to steiner@egroups.com
            >
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            > steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            > Search the archives of the group at:
            > http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
            >
            > Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
            > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
            >
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            >
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          • churchinnerlight@aol.com
            Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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              Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view within the anthroposophical movement, and Steiner said right in our statutes that politics is not the task of the Anthroposophical Society.

              Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any kind of sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among its tasks."
              Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of Anthroposophy, Letters to Members, 13 Jan. 1924.


              Dr. Starman


              mtelford@... writes:

              I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't we. You can now delete me from this list.
              MT



              ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is captive here. You're also welcome to start your own list if you don't like the moderator of this one.
                 If you try to, though, I'll just give you advice that a wise man once told me, and that I try to remember---- you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
              Starman

              mtelford@... writes:
              Ditto.
              MT


                 I've never seen Starman be nasty to people like you. I agree with keeping politics off this discussion group, look at what a negative attitude people have just starting into it! Who would want to be part of a group that just radiated negativity? What good could that do?
                                                                                                    -Jim
            • lilolemissy
              Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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                Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view within the anthroposophical movement, and Steiner said right in our statutes that politics is not the task of the Anthroposophical Society.

                Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any kind of sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among its tasks."
                Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of Anthroposophy, Letters to Members, 13 Jan. 1924.


                Dr. Starman


                mtelford@... writes:

                I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't we. You can now delete me from this list.
                MT



                ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is captive here. You're also welcome to start your own list if you don't like the moderator of this one.
                   If you try to, though, I'll just give you advice that a wise man once told me, and that I try to remember---- you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
                Starman

                mtelford@... writes:
                Ditto.
                MT


                   I've never seen Starman be nasty to people like you. I agree with keeping politics off this discussion group, look at what a negative attitude people have just starting into it! Who would want to be part of a group that just radiated negativity? What good could that do?
                                                                                                      -Jim


                Thank you, Jim! I think all of us agree. I always feel thankful for Dr. Starman's steiner list, and it seems only a matter of time before the "discontented" leave. :)
                 
                Sheila
              • MT
                Jim, I wasnt going to respond to anymore of this - but you have replied totally out of context. Firstly I have NEVER mentioned politics or three fold social
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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                  Jim,
                  I wasnt going to respond to anymore of this - but you have replied totally out of context. Firstly I have NEVER mentioned politics or three fold social order. This entire thread started when Starman WAS Nasty - to Nick Perals - a person he knows nothing about. So politics is not the preserve of Anthroposophy - that doesn't mean MichaEL doesn't from time to time work through people like, as the example I gave, a Gorbachev. Only a mere politician could have brought down the Communist structure and this could only have been done in the USSR from the top down. That was just an example.
                   
                  But I objected to the 'judgement' made by Starman. I don't believe that Anthroposophy is the preserve of anyone one person or their ideology. One can quote Steiner as much as one likes to support ones 'narrow' view of the world - as is the bible for example.
                   
                  Please when criticing me- do it in context. I only responded to the holier than though Starman and made the observation that Anthroposophy is not his to own. He attacked Perlas, and then myself and showed his true colours. Perhaps he should remove the 'log from his own eye before trying to remove the splinter in mine'.
                  MT
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 3:21 AM
                  Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why Politics is Off Topic

                  Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if related to Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one political point of view within the anthroposophical movement, and Steiner said right in our statutes that politics is not the task of the Anthroposophical Society.

                  Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any kind of sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among its tasks."
                  Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of Anthroposophy, Letters to Members, 13 Jan. 1924.


                  Dr. Starman


                  mtelford@... writes:

                  I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to do with it. You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't we. You can now delete me from this list.
                  MT



                  ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is captive here. You're also welcome to start your own list if you don't like the moderator of this one.
                     If you try to, though, I'll just give you advice that a wise man once told me, and that I try to remember---- you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
                  Starman

                  mtelford@... writes:
                  Ditto.
                  MT


                     I've never seen Starman be nasty to people like you. I agree with keeping politics off this discussion group, look at what a negative attitude people have just starting into it! Who would want to be part of a group that just radiated negativity? What good could that do?
                                                                                                        -Jim


                  Post to steiner@egroups.com

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

                  Search the archives of the group at:
                  http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

                  Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                  http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Joel
                  So, again just out of curiousity, how do you think it is going to be possible to change the status quo, which is lamentably political - without using (or at
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 5, 2003
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                    So, again just out of curiousity, how do you think it is going to be
                    possible to change the status quo, which is lamentably political -
                    without using (or at least for heavens sake discussing and
                    understanding) politics? I'm content to discuss whatever people
                    bring up, and it's your forum - you can do what you like, but I think
                    you need some discernment on what is and isn't bad "political"
                    postings and what is necessary for growth.


                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                    > mtelford@b... writes:>
                    > > I see your tone on here all too often. I would have nothing to do
                    with it.
                    > > You think you own Anthroposophy - so smug we are - aren't we. You
                    can now
                    > > delete me from this list.
                    > > MT
                    > >
                    >
                    > ******* You can unsubscribe yourself any time you wish. No one is
                    captive
                    > here. You're also welcome to start your own list if you don't like
                    the moderator
                    > of this one.
                    >
                    > If you try to, though, I'll just give you advice that a wise
                    man once
                    > told me, and that I try to remember---- you attract more flies with
                    honey than
                    > vinegar.
                    >
                    > Starman
                    >
                    > > >>
                    > >> Discussion of the threefold ideas is welcome on this list if
                    related to
                    > >> Steiner and anthroposophy. Politics is not. There is no one
                    political point
                    > >> of view within the anthroposophical movement, and Steiner said
                    right in our
                    > >> statutes that politics is not the task of the Anthroposophical
                    Society.
                    > >>
                    > >> Dr. Steiner: "The Anthroposophical Society is averse to any
                    kind of
                    > >> sectarian tendency. Politics it does not consider to be among
                    its tasks."
                    > >> Statute #4, The Life, Nature and Cultivation of Anthroposophy,
                    Letters to
                    > >> Members, 13 Jan. 1924.
                    > >>
                    > >> Dr. Starman
                    > http://www.DrStarman.net
                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                    afc@hiselectmsp.com writes: ... ******* I don t think this discussion group is going to change the status quo of the whole world, or of whatever society
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 5, 2003
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                      afc@... writes:

                      So, again just out of curiousity, how do you think it is going to be
                      possible to change the status quo, which is lamentably political -
                      without using (or at least for heavens sake discussing and
                      understanding) politics?  I'm content to discuss whatever people
                      bring up, and it's your forum - you can do what you like, but I think
                      you need some discernment on what is and isn't bad "political"
                      postings and what is necessary for growth.


                      ******* I don't think this discussion group is going to "change the status quo"of the whole world, or of whatever society members live in. It's a mailing list for a few hundred people to share their understanding of Steiner. He said, We have only to do what is right and leave everything else to evolution. And he was clear that the Anthroposophical Society was not a place for political agitation. The two appear to me to be opposites---that is, the people most worked-up about politics show the least understanding of Steiner.

                          As I've said repeatedly here, there is a list for discussion of politics out of anthroposophy, one which I post to and anyone is welcome to join, EsotericPolitics@.... People who want to argue politics (and in my experience that's all it leads to, is arguing) can do so there. This list is for general discussion of Steiner and anthroposophy, and I decided politics is off-topic after seeing the negativity it engenders destroy other online lists--- and I think most people here agree it's a good rule. 

                      -Starman
                      http://www.DrStarman.net
                    • churchinnerlight@aol.com
                      ... Dear mr. MT, I can only say that if you can t see your own attitude, no one else can open your eyes to it. As they say in Alcohlics Anonymous, Denial isn t
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 5, 2003
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                        mtelford@... writes:
                        Jim,
                        I wasnt going to respond to anymore of this - but you have replied totally out of context. Firstly I have NEVER mentioned politics or three fold social order. This entire thread started when Starman WAS Nasty - to Nick Perals - a person he knows nothing about.



                        Dear mr. MT,
                            I can only say that if you can't see your own attitude, no one else can open your eyes to it. As they say in Alcohlics Anonymous, Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.  I joined this list to hopefully understand more of this anthroposophy Starman talks about. I read what he wrote about the politician in the Phillipines --- who I've heard him mention before, he knows about him--- and he said that the man has his own political stands and says they're derived from Steiner but other people have completely different ones and say they are too! He didn't attack the man personally---you started attacking. And saying he knows nothing about the man is just continuing the nastiness, what you mean is that you have such a strong opinion about YOUR guy being right, that anyone who doesn't agree with him and you has to be ignorant. 

                           I'd say it's miles away from showing we've gotten anywhere on the spiritual path when we let ourselves act like that. Isn't anthroposophy a spiritual path?

                        I agree with keeping poilitics off here, seeing this! That's all I have to say, I'll go back to just reading.                                                -Jim
                      • Joel Ronningen
                        Okay. Thanks for making the reply. Since I think that just working on ourselves isn t frankly going to be enough to fulfill our human destinies, I think any
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 5, 2003
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                          Okay. Thanks for making the reply. Since I think that just working on ourselves isn't frankly going to be enough to fulfill our human destinies, I think any discussion of furthering Anthroposophy without including actions that can be taken in the wider context is fairly academic at best. Kind of like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, I think it's been called. But, to each their own. :) It's sad that we have to defer such a vitally important area of action because some can't handle it. There is a lot of wisdom here, and it would be nice to have one place to discuss all the aspects of the work that needs to be done without jumping from group to group. Ah, well.
                          Thanks again, Dr.!


                          Joel Ronningen
                          ronningen@...

                          --- On Fri 12/05, < DRStarman2001@... > wrote:
                          From: [mailto: DRStarman2001@...]
                          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:07:56 EST
                          Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: The List- and Why Politics is Off Topic

                          <HTML>

                          <FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">afc@... writes:<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
                          So, again just out of curiousity, how do you think it is going to be <BR>
                          possible to change the status quo, which is lamentably political - <BR>
                          without using (or at least for heavens sake discussing and <BR>
                          understanding) politics?� I'm content to discuss whatever people <BR>
                          bring up, and it's your forum - you can do what you like, but I think <BR>
                          you need some discernment on what is and isn't bad "political" <BR>
                          postings and what is necessary for growth.<BR>
                          </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
                          <BR>
                          ******* I don't think this discussion group is going to "change the status quo"of the whole world, or of whatever society members live in. It's a mailing list for a few hundred people to share their understanding of Steiner. He said, We have only to do what is right and leave everything else to evolution. And he was clear that the Anthroposophical Society was not a place for political agitation. The two appear to me to be opposites---that is, the people most worked-up about politics show the least understanding of Steiner.<BR>
                          <BR>
                          ��� As I've said repeatedly here, there is a list for discussion of politics out of anthroposophy, one which I post to and anyone is welcome to join, EsotericPolitics@.... People who want to argue politics (and in my experience that's all it leads to, is arguing) can do so there. This list is for general discussion of Steiner and anthroposophy, and I decided politics is off-topic after seeing the negativity it engenders destroy other online lists--- and I think most people here agree it's a good rule.� <BR>
                          <BR>
                          -Starman<BR>
                          http://www.DrStarman.net</FONT>
                          <br>

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