- --- Derek Forman <derekelleray2000@...> wrote:
>Do you not realise that as moderator of this site you have the power
>to delete any message that you choose to?
>So I wonder why this message was not deleted immediately.
********As a matter of fact, I don't think I can ----that is, delete a message before it's sent to the group. Anyone can enroll in an e-group and start sending e-mails, which is just what that advertiser did. The only way to prevent that would be to have all your e-mails go to a moderator first and then each one approved, which I'd rather not do. I'd rather put up with an occasional ad then treat everyone like children.
>It offers a link to a porn site which anyone can get to and
>therefore contaminates this group by its very presence!
>I do not think that "she" deserves a reply-even a
While these e-mails can be offensive, it saddens me to
think that we'd need a new law of censureship in order
to protect ourselves from the possibility that one of
us might choose to explore the link this person sent.
I'd rather have Dr. Starman spending his time
presenting work related to the group's intended
purpose than policing the eradication of pornography,
as there are certainly many others out there already
hard at work with that job.
Anyway, ridding the world of pornography is a lofty
goal that has little basis in present reality. It is
the world's oldest profession, and hearty for sure.
Better we spend our time building better schools and
community centers than tearing down adult movie
houses. At least we'll have someplace to go when
we're too old to get it on.
Oh, wait, we already have Pfizer Pharmaceuticals....
HAIL! THE NEW AGE OF OLD AGE HAS ARRIVED!
*******I think we're all grown-ups here, and we can keep a sense of humor about our human foibles and failings, such as sex and our 'fallen' Luciferic desire nature. And advertisers on the Net.
- Hello Everyone!
I really need to speak to the way Derek described being spammed by a porn
site as "contaminating" the group. I am sorry to have to be so personal about
what I am going to say, but it struck a very personal nerve with me.
Number One, I don't like our group being spammed only because it's invasive
and wastes our time and e-mail "space" whatever that is.
Number Two, I distrust anyone who comes off judgemental against anything
sexual just because it is sexual.
Now, I have looked at your profile and I realize that you are an older
person, but I am 48 and catching up rapidly. And age should be no excuse for such
ignorance and closed mindedness. In fact, that is something that should set
anyone interested in Steiner apart from other Christian groups. We are, those of
us who feel deeply connected with Steiner's work as a whole, connected with
Christianity. But a careful reading of the history of "Christianity" as it has
been put into practice on the stage of world history and politics should make us
feel more ashamed of ourselves through that connection than anything that any
of us may have participated in sexually (omitting of course, acts of violence
with sexual motives).
Why spirituality and sexuality are seen as opposing forces in human life is
something that I have lived with and puzzled over in theory and in fact all of
my life. My basic conclusion at this point is that it is not incorporated in
the teachings of Christ Jesus and has no bearing on spiritual development,
except perhaps as a distraction. I will point out here (and again and again if I
have to) that the RISEN CHRIST appeared first to a FORMER PROSTITUTE - not to
some celibate male disciple! And, as I have understood it generally over the
years in discussions with students of Steiner, it is mostly because, having
given her body to many men, her etheric was strong, but a little loosened from her
physical body, enabling her to be "there" but "open" to HIS presence.
"Her only sin is having loved too much." is somewhere in there, as well as
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is not an intellectual,
scholarly dissertation, only a personal response. I can look up the references
later, if you wish.
If any of you in this list are truly "without sin", then I applaud you, as
long as this means that you are without the sin of judgmentalism and pride of
self. The greatest sin I can think of, besides being conciously against God, is
the sin of hypocrisy.
I believe that connecting the concept of "sin" with "sex" was at first a
patriarchal ploy at dominance and later, also a political and "religious" (in the
sense of churches and religious structures) method of mind control. The only
sin that I can connect with sex (apart, I will repeat, from violence in its
many forms) is the sin of hurting another person. When we form a sexual
relationship, we can run the risk of hurting either ourselves or another person through
expectations unfulfilled or by connecting the etheric bodies through repeated
contact and then ripping them apart suddenly and unexpectedly. It takes time
to meld them and separate them again. The sin of prostitution is that the
prostitute feels something vital stolen away from their etheric and ego and she or
he doesn't know how to "get it back" to repair the damage and strengthen the
sense of self. Unless heavy hardware is used, little damage is done to the
physical body. (Not counting the effect of diseases - another matter altogether).
The sin against the underage person, whether consensual or not, is that they
are still developing their astral sheath and Ego connection and the power of
the sexual connection can throw it out of whack and of course, the emotional
life in the process.
There are some people who, while in their teens, find their soulmate and have
to fulfill a karmic destiny early because of the needs of children or some
other task the couple has in life. Hopefully, with enough real love involved,
the damage is outweighed. But no one outside of the relationship really has any
right to judge. Even Steiner, who might have been able to see the truth behind
the nature of the relationship would never have said anything against them,
and would only have tried to illuminate the situation if asked in a counseling
situation by the couple involved.
Of course there is abuse on every conceivable and inconceivable level and it
goes on just as much, if not more so within the confines of a "legal" or
"sacramental" marriage as it does between comparative strangers. This is where the
sin lies - not in the act of sex, whatever that may be, between consenting and
caring people, but in the violence, physical, mental or emotional that goes
on in the name of sex.
Pornography is not in and of itself "violent" or "corrupting". It may be
enticing and present a strong distraction from other thoughts and activities. But
it just as well may lead the individual into a greater self-awareness (albeit
on the mundane side) and self-acceptance. Just knowing that others have the
same fantasies and curiosities as oneself can be very re-assuring and even
reduce the power of the actual fantasy. Once shared, a fantasy loses a great deal
of its impact on our emotions.
I say this as a fact and an experience. I, a former and future Waldorf
teacher, spent three years working as a phone sex operator. It was a wonderful
experience and I will never regret it. In fact, it taught me a tremendous amount
about human love and self-acceptance. Many people called thinking at first that
they were all alone in the world having their particular fantasy (usually
simple, normal and totally harmless) and the relief was palpable even over the
phone, when they found out just how normal and harmless it really was.
Prostitution, whether mental or physical has an historical basis connected
with ancient religious practices. I believe it is because men reached more
deeply into their physical bodies in the earlier epochs and needed the connection
with the female in both the sexual and emotional senses to help them re-connect
with a "higher" plane. I don't mean the "free love" perspective of modern
cults who use it as an excuse to entrap and enslave females without love or
conscience. And I know it isn't the fully ego-concious development that we should
be pursuing in our time. But it did have and still does have value, especially
for people who are very trapped within themselves and who find it difficult to
reach out and connect emotionally. Women who are or who have been prostitutes
can and have actually given quite a bit of healing to the icy male psyche
from time to time. Probably more so in cultures that don't denegrate them as
I was not a physical prostitute in my youth, but I might as well have been
for the emotional damage my life as a "sexually active" young woman did. But it
was not the sex that did it - it was the "love". It was the loving of people
who did not love back according to the expectations I was raised to believe in,
or who did not love at all. The pain was in the giving without receiving, or
sometimes, in not being able to receive what was offered by others.
My point is that no one should be judging other's sexuality as long as it is
not involved with violence (I count sex with children and young minors as
violence). If one finds another's expression of their sexuality distastful, it is
fine to say, please don't bring that into my personal space. But it is not
fine to then think your personal space is "pure" or "holy" and theirs is not. The
minute you think that, you can bet that you have a more obnoxious demon
behind your back than they do!
The ads we see - obvious or subtle are only distractions. They have a great
power over people today only because the majority of people have so little else
to occupy themselves with. The "girl" in the ad does not have horns and a
tail. In fact, she doesn't exist at all. She is a fiction made up to entice
people to go and pay some money to look at "dirty" pictures, that's all. So
condemning "her" is simply an absurdity. Condemning the people who put up the porn
sites? They are no different than the good folks at Calvin Klein or Victoria's
Secret or a thousand other businesses today who use the wiggle worm of sex as
bait to catch the dollar fish.
Some of those porn sites are terrific! Especially when you figure out how to
find the ones you don't have to pay for!!!