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RE: [steiner] Theosophy: spiritual vision received as a gift at every instant

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  • Jp
    Lee wrote: By what process would the spirit world stop the seer using his soul s spiritual organs of perception? I wrote (though it hasn t arrived at the list
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 8, 2003

      Lee wrote: 


      By what process would the spirit world stop the seer using his soul's spiritual organs of perception?

      I wrote (though it hasn’t arrived at the list yet): 

       

      I can’t describe the process, but would this experience be analogous to ours when we look at a paragraph, a problem, a plant, a painting or a person without understanding -- and then, through devoted attention, we find our way (are allowed?) in?  Might this also be such a gift? 


      Doctor Starman replied to Lee’s note: 


      *******By speaking to them or not. Just as you can't hear a sound with perfectly functioning ears unless there's a sound there outside you. Wisdom is received or 'heard' spiritually. You can't make the sound happen; a spirit being must speak. That's why it requires patience to get answers to many questions.


      Sometimes, even in ordinary life, you don't hear a sound with perfectly functioning ears even when it is there outside you – for example, when someone’s speaking but you’re not listening. 

      Is this part of the picture of spiritual reality, that speaking and listening are interdependent?  Perhaps our listening itself needs to transform, to hear a deeper speaking. 

       

                      - Joseph Proskauer

    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      In Theosophy in the addendum to chapter 3 Steiner says ... the spiritual researchers work on their own soul gives them the capacity for spiritual vision; that
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 8, 2003

        In Theosophy in the addendum to chapter 3 Steiner says
        ... the spiritual researchers' work on their own soul gives them the capacity for spiritual vision; that is the point of their efforts.
        But whether they are then able to perceive something in the spiritual world in a given instance, and exactly what they perceive, does not depend on them but comes to meet them as a gift from the spiritual world. They cannot force it they have to wait until it comes ...
        By what process would the spirit world stop the seer using his soul's
        spiritual organs of perception?
        Lee

        JP@... writes:

                 
        I can’t describe the process, but would this experience be analogous to ours when we look at a paragraph, a problem, a plant, a painting or a person without understanding -- and then, through devoted attention, we find our way (are allowed?) in?  Might this also be such a gift? 

        *******Yes, Joe, as opposed to just using logic to form a judgement about a person that may be quite unlike his actual being. You have to wait until that person reveals himself to you---until you are in a receptive mood and it coincides with the other spirit being in a 'sending' mood.

           Another comparison is what Matthew just posted about--- when you are positioned rightly in the spirit world, the answer to a question you were living with suddenly is clear.  Sometime it may take years before a problem you seek the solution to is suddenly revealed to you (remember, we think with the spirit). Hence the requirement for patience.
         
           BTW, it was nice meeting you and a few other list members at the annual meeting of the Society in New York this past weekend.

        -Starman

        http://www.DrStarman.net
      • DoctorStarman@aol.com
        ... *******Yes, hearing is noth the same as listening! The correctly functioning ears are part of the body. But it is the soul which perceives ---- or, yes,
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 8, 2003

          Lee wrote: 
          By what process would the spirit world stop the seer using his soul's spiritual organs of perception?

          I wrote (though it hasn’t arrived at the list yet): 
          I can’t describe the process, but would this experience be analogous to ours when we look at a paragraph, a problem, a plant, a painting or a person without understanding -- and then, through devoted attention, we find our way (are allowed?) in?  Might this also be such a gift? 


          Doctor Starman replied to Lee’s note: 
          *******By speaking to them or not. Just as you can't hear a sound with perfectly functioning ears unless there's a sound there outside you.Wisdom is received or 'heard' spiritually. You can't make the sound happen; a spirit being must speak. That's why it requires patience to get answers to many questions.


          >>Sometimes, even in ordinary life, you don't hear a sound with perfectly functioning ears even when it is there outside you – for example, when someone’s speaking but you’re not listening. 
          Is this part of the picture of spiritual reality, that speaking and listening are interdependent?  Perhaps our listening itself needs to transform, to hear a deeper speaking. 
                         - Joseph Proskauer



          *******Yes, hearing is noth the same as listening! The correctly functioning ears are part of the body. But it is the soul which perceives ---- or, yes, does not perceive ---- by means of them. Look at "hysterical blindness", for instance, where, because of what has happened in the soul, a person cannot see, although there is nothing wrong with the physical eyes.

              Similarly, the soul must build organs for the spirit to manifest into it: spiritual eyes, ears and so forth. A person can have these, but, just as we are born with physical eyes and yet must learn depth perception, we must learn how to USE our spiritual organs of perception. Just as the child will reach out to touch the moon, or not really perceive a mountain it grows up near because it blends into the background, so we need to train our spirit-organs ro be able to realize, say, that a 'sound' is speech from a spirit-being and not just random noise---- we have to recognize a being is there speaking. Then all things are imbued with an added dimension we did not previously recognize.

             A good comparison from ordinary life might be when a person we thought we knew suddenly does something with their life that we find quite unexpected, like a person who never was musical suddenly becoming a musician. We were not really listening to the person spiritually so we find it unexpected. I had a friend years ago who suddenly switched careers and became an actor, and he later said to me that he was surprised that he ever became one---but I wasn't, as I'd seen he was a budding actor all along.

              The exercises in Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, such as those with plants, are a great developer here. As Goethe said, "Every process of Nature, rightly understood, awakens in us an organ of cognition."

          Starman
        • Lee Noonan
          Hi Dr Starman thanks for your helpful responses. I have the image of the spiritual world resounding away regardless of whether I am listening or not. Steiner
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 8, 2003
            Hi Dr Starman

            thanks for your helpful responses. I have the image of the spiritual
            world resounding away regardless of whether I am listening or not.
            Steiner mentions that two seers will see the same spiritual formation
            eg a human aura, when they focus on the same formation. I was
            wondering how a spirit being would speak to one seer and not the
            other.

            Lee



            > leeanoonan@b... writes:
            > > Hi,
            > > In Theosophy in the addendum to chapter 3 Steiner says ..
            > > "the spiritual researchers' work on their own soul gives them the
            > > capacity for spiritual vision; that is the point of their
            efforts.
            > > But whether they are then able to perceive something in the
            spiritual
            > > world in a given instance, and exactly what they perceive, does
            not
            > > depend on them but comes to meet them as a gift from the
            spiritual
            > > world. They cannot force it they have to wait until it comes "
            > > ...
            > >
            > > By what process would the spirit world stop the seer using his
            soul's
            > > spiritual organs of perception?
            > > Lee
            > >
            > >
            >
            > *******By speaking to them or not. Just as you can't hear a sound
            with
            > perfectly functioning ears unless there's a sound there outside
            you. Wisdom is
            > received or 'heard' spiritually. You can't make the sound happen; a
            spirit being
            > must speak. That's why it requires patience to get answers to many
            questions.
            > -Starman
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