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Theosophy: creative archetypes of purely human creations

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  • leeanoonan
    Hi In the 3 lowest regions of Spirit we have the creative archetypes of physical forms, life, and soul. In the 4th the creative archetypes of purely human
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 8, 2003
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      Hi

      In the 3 lowest regions of Spirit we have the creative archetypes of
      physical forms, life, and soul.

      In the 4th the creative archetypes of purely human creations eg art,
      scientific creations.

      Steiner also says that everything in the physical and soul works is
      created by the archetypes.

      My lack of uderstanding is related to the 4th region. What are the
      creative archetypes creating here and what am I creating. I can
      sense the great art and science is received from the archetypes and
      brough to existance through me , But is this really the case for
      everthying that I create, for example this email?

      Lee
    • DoctorStarman@aol.com
      ... ******Anytime you create something with original thinking, even the most trivial action. He says, All that occupies us in our physical life outside the
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 8, 2003
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        leeanoonan@... writes:
        Hi
        In the 3 lowest regions of Spirit we have the creative archetypes of
        physical forms, life, and soul.
        In the 4th the creative archetypes of purely human creations eg art,
        scientific creations.
        Steiner also says that everything in the physical and soul works is
        created by the archetypes.
        My lack of uderstanding is related to the 4th region. What are the
        creative archetypes creating here and what am I creating. I can
        sense the great art and science is received from the archetypes and
        brough to existance through me , But is this really the case for
        everthying that I create, for example this email?
        Lee

        ******Anytime you create something with original thinking, even the most trivial action. He says, "All that occupies us in our physical life outside the sphere of everyday living, wishing and willing has its source in this region."
        -starman
      • Lee Noonan
        Hi Dr Starman but the human spirit and the creative archetypes both occupy this region so I still have this idea that won t go away that it might be the human
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 8, 2003
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          Hi Dr Starman

          but the human spirit and the creative archetypes both occupy this
          region so I still have this idea that won't go away that it might be
          the human spirit that is the creative element for human creations.

          There are probably a lot of great artists and scientists who won't be
          very happy to discover that their creation was brought about through
          them and not by them. But also there are many artists and scientists
          who acknowledge that they receive their genius as a gift from God.

          I am a software designer and have had the experience of an inspired
          solution to a difficult problem appearing in a instant like a bolt of
          lightening, and then taking take a week to write it all down.

          However even though these experiences strongly might indicate the the
          creative archetypes are at work here, they don't definitively tell me
          it is that way. And Dr Steiner is sufficiently vague ( or my reading
          is ) to let me live with this question.

          So is Steiner saying that

          "All that occupies us in our physical life outside the sphere of
          everyday living, wishing and willing has its source in this
          region." and that the source is the creative archetypes ?



          Lee




          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, DoctorStarman@a... wrote:
          > leeanoonan@b... writes:
          > > Hi
          > > In the 3 lowest regions of Spirit we have the creative archetypes
          of
          > > physical forms, life, and soul.
          > > In the 4th the creative archetypes of purely human creations eg
          art,
          > > scientific creations.
          > > Steiner also says that everything in the physical and soul works
          is
          > > created by the archetypes.
          > > My lack of uderstanding is related to the 4th region. What are
          the
          > > creative archetypes creating here and what am I creating. I can
          > > sense the great art and science is received from the archetypes
          and
          > > brough to existance through me , But is this really the case for
          > > everthying that I create, for example this email?
          > > Lee
          > >
          > ******Anytime you create something with original thinking, even the
          most
          > trivial action. He says, "All that occupies us in our physical life
          outside the
          > sphere of everyday living, wishing and willing has its source in
          this region."
          > -starman
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          leeanoonan@beeb.net writes: ... *******Well, these questions which can only really be answered by studying the subject in detail. First, let s make sure
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 8, 2003
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            leeanoonan@... writes:

            Hi Dr Starman
            but the human spirit and the creative archetypes both occupy this
            region so I still have this idea that won't go away that it might be
            the human spirit that is the creative element for human creations.  
            There are probably a lot of great artists and scientists who won't be
            very happy to discover that their creation was brought about through
            them and not by them.  But also there are many artists and scientists
            who acknowledge that they receive their genius as a gift from God.
            I am a software designer and have had the experience of an inspired
            solution to a difficult problem appearing in a instant like a bolt of
            lightening, and then taking take a week to write it all down.  
            However even though these experiences strongly might indicate the the
            creative archetypes are at work here, they don't definitively tell me
            it is that way.  And Dr Steiner is sufficiently vague ( or my reading
            is ) to let me live with this question.
            So is Steiner saying that
            "All that occupies us in our physical life outside the sphere of
            everyday living, wishing and willing has its source in this
            region."   and that the source is the creative archetypes ?
            Lee



            *******Well, these questions which can only really be answered by studying the subject in detail. First, let's make sure everyone who wishes to can participate. What Lee is asking about is Dr. Steiner's basic book THEOSOPHY, which can be read online HERE:

            http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Books/GA009/English/GA009_index.html



                In this book, Steiner describes the parts of man (body, soul & spiirt), then how reincarnation and karma work, then what we pass through after death. This last is described as a passage through "regions" of the soul world and then "regions" of the spirit world. The "archetypes" of all things in the physical and soul worlds are found there, as spiritual "forms" (to use Plato's word). Steiner first describes the lowest 3 "regions":

            "
            In the first region of spiritland man is surrounded by the spiritual archetypes of earthly beings. During life on earth he learns to know only the shadows of these archetypes that he grasps in his thoughts. What is merely thought on earth is in this region experienced, lived. Man moves among thoughts, but these thoughts are real beings. What he has perceived with his senses during life on earth acts on him now in its thought form. The thought, however, does not appear as the shadow hiding itself behind the things. It is, on the contrary, the life-filled reality producing the things. Man is, as it were, in the thought workshop in which earthly tings are formed and fashioned, because in the land of spirit all is vital activity and mobility. Here the thought world is at work as a world of living beings, creative and constructive. We see how what we have experienced during the earthly existence is constructed. Just as in the physical body we experience the things of the senses as reality, so now, as spirit, we experience the spiritual, constructive forces as real.

                Among the thought beings to be found in spiritland is also the thought of our own physical corporeality. We feel removed from the latter. We feel only the spiritual being as belonging to ourselves, and when we perceive the discarded body as if in memory, no longer as physical but as thought being, then its relation to the external world becomes a matter of direct perception. We learn to look at it as something belonging to the external world, as a member of this external world. We consequently no longer distinguish our own corporeality from the rest of the external world as something more closely related to ourselves. We feel the unity in the whole external world including our own bodily incarnations. Our own embodiments dissolve here into a unity with the rest of the world. Thus man here looks upon the archetypes of the physical corporeal reality as a unity to which he has belonged himself. He learns, therefore, gradually to know his relationship, his unity with the surrounding world by observation. He learns to say to is, “What is here spread out around thee, thou wert that.” This is one of the fundamental thoughts of ancient Indian Vedanta wisdom. The sage acquires, even during his earthly life, what others experience after death, namely, the ability to grasp the thought that he himself is related to all things — the thought. “Thou art himself is related to all things — the thought. “Thou art that.” In earthly life this is an ideal to which the thought life can be devoted. In the land of the spirit it is an immediate fact, one that grows ever clearer to us through spiritual experience, and man himself comes to know ever more clearly in this land that in his own inner being he belongs to the spirit world. He perceives himself to be a spirit among spirits, a member of the primordial spirits, feeling within himself the word of the primordial spirit, “I am the Primal Spirit.” The wisdom of the Vedanta says, “I am Brahman,” that is, I belong as a member to the primordial being in whom all beings have their origin. We see that what is grasped during earthly life as a shadowy thought towards which all wisdom strives is in spiritland an immediate experience. Indeed it is only thought during earth life because it is a fact in spiritual existence.

                Thus man during his spiritual existence sees as if from outside from a high watch tower the relationships and facts in the midst of which he stands during his earthly life. During his life in the lowest region of spiritland, he lives in regard to the earthly relationships immediately connected with physical corporeal reality. On earth man is born into a family, a folk; he lives in a certain country. His earthly existence is determined by all these relationships. He finds this or that friend because relationships within the physical world bring it about. He carries on this or that business. All this decides the conditions of his earthly life. All this presents itself to him during his life in the first region of spiritland as living thought being. He lives it all through again in a certain way, but he lives it through from the active spiritual side. The family love he has exercised, the friendship he has produced, become alive and quick from within, and his capacities in this direction are enhanced. That element in the spirit of man that acts as the force of love of family and friend is strengthened. He later enters on his earthly existence again as a more perfect man in these respects. It is to a certain extent the everyday relationships of earth life that ripen as the fruit of this lowest region of spiritland. That element in man, which in its interests is wholly absorbed by these everyday relationships, will feel itself in affinity with this region for the greater part of its life between two incarnations. We find again in the spiritual world the people with whom we have lived in the physical world. Just as everything loosens and falls away from the soul that was peculiarly its own through the physical body, so also does the bond that in physical lie linked soul with soul loosen itself from those conditions that have meaning and effectiveness only in the physical world. Yet all that soul was to soul in physical life is carried over beyond death into the spiritual world. It is natural that words coined for physical conditions can only reproduce inaccurately what takes place in the spiritual world. If this is taken into account, it must be described as quite correct when it is said that those souls that belong together in physical life find each other again in order to continue in a corresponding manner their joint lives in the spiritual world.

                In the second region the common life of the earth world flows as thought being, as a fluid element, so to speak, of spiritland. As long as one observes the world during physical embodiment, life appears to be confined within separate living beings. In spiritland it is liberated from them and, like life-blood, flows as it were through the whole land. It exists there as the living unity that is present in all things. Of this also only a reflection appears to man during earthly life, and this reflection expresses itself in every form of reverence that he pays to the whole, to the unity and harmony of the universe. The religious life of man is derived from this reflection. He becomes aware of how far the all-embracing meaning of existence does not lie in what is transitory and separate. He regards the transitory as a similitude, a likeness of an eternal, harmonious unity . He looks up to this unity in a mood of reverence and worship. He performs before it religious rites and ceremonies. In spiritland, not the reflection but the real form appears as living thought being. Here man can really join himself to the unity that he has reverenced on earth. The fruits of religious life and all connected with it make their appearance in this region. Man now learns through spiritual experience to recognize that his individual destiny is not to be separated from the community to which he belongs. The capacity to know oneself as a member of a whole develops here. The religious feelings, all that has already during life striven after a pure and noble morality, will draw strength out of this region during a great part of the spiritual life between incarnations, and a man will reincarnate with enhanced capacities in this direction.

                While in the first region we are in company of those souls with whom we have been linked by the closest ties of the physical world during the preceding physical life, in the second region we enter the domain of all those things with whom we felt united in a wider sense, that is, through a common reverence, through a common religious confession, and so on. It must be emphasized that the spiritual experiences of the preceding regions continue to persist through the subsequent ones. Thus man is not all torn away from the ties knitted by family, friendship, and so on, when he enters upon the life of the second and following regions. Moreover, the regions of spiritland do not lie like sections one beside the other. They interpenetrate each other, and man experiences himself in a new region not because he has externally entered upon it in any form whatever, but because he has attained in himself the inner capacities for now perceiving what he previously lived within, but without perceiving it.

                The third region of spiritland contains the archetypes of the soul world. All that lives in this world is here present as living thought being. We find in it the archetypes of desires, wishes and feelings, but here in the spirit world nothing self-seeking clings to the soul. Just as all life forms a unity in the second region, so in this third region all longings, wishes, all likes and dislikes form a unity. The desire and wish of others are not separable from my desire and wish. The sensations and feelings of all beings are a common world, enclosing and surrounding everything else, just as the physical atmosphere surrounds the earth. This region is, as it were, the atmosphere or air of spiritland. All that a person has carried out in his life on earth in the service of the community, in selfless devotion to his fellowmen, will bear fruit here because through this service, through this self-giving, he has lived in a reflection of the third region of spiritland. The great benefactors of the human race, the self-sacrificing natures, those who render great services to communities, have gained their ability to render them in this region after having acquired for themselves the readiness for a special relation to it during their previous earthly careers."


            ******* Then Dr. Steiner goes on to describe the fourth region:

                "It is evident that the three regions of spiritland just described stand in a certain relation to the worlds below them, to the physical and soul worlds, because they contain the archetypes, the living thought beings, that take up corporeal or soul existence in those worlds. Only the fourth region is the pure spiritland, but even this region is not quite that in the fullest sense of the word. It differs from the three lower regions owing to the fact that in them we meet with the archetypes of those physical and soul relations that man finds existing in the physical and soul worlds before he himself begins to participate in them. The circumstances of everyday life link themselves with the things and beings that man finds already present in the world. The transitory things of this world direct his gaze to their eternal primal foundation, and his fellow creatures also, to whom he selflessly devotes himself, do not owe their presence to him. It is, however, through him that there are in the world all the creations of the arts, sciences, engineering, states and governments — in short, all that he has embodied in the world as original creations of his spirit. Without his activity these could not manifest themselves in the physical world. The archetypes of these purely human creations are in the fourth region of the spiritland. All that we develop during earthly life in the way of scientific discoveries, of artistic ideas and forms, of technical conceptions, bears fruit in this fourth region. It is out of this region therefore that artists, scientists and inventors draw their impulses and enhance their genius during their stay in spiritland in order during another incarnation to be able to assist in fuller measure the further evolution of human culture. But we must not imagine that this fourth region of spiritland possesses importance only for specially prominent human beings. It has great importance for all men. All that occupies us in our physical life outside the sphere of everyday living, wishing and willing has its source in this region. If we did not pass through it in the period between death and a new birth, we would in our subsequent life have no interests leading out beyond the narrow circle of our personal life-conduct to what is common to all humanity.

               It has already been said above that even this region cannot be called pure spiritland in the full sense of the word. This is the case because the stage at which men have left civilization on earth continues to influence their spiritual existence. They can enjoy in spiritland only the fruits of what it was possible for them to carry out in accordance with their talents and the stage of development of the folk, state and nation into which they were born. "


                 *******So, all original creations of the human spirit have their archetypes here. This does not mean that everything our human spirits creates exists there as a finished product and we are merely transmitters. Note he says that we develop creativity in each life and it 'bears fruit' here: in other words, a Goethe or a Beethoven ADDS TO this region after his earth life, and all men who do anything original do so in smaller measure. "Heaven" is not a state of rest, but rather the archetypal world is in constant change and growth. We often have a wrong idea of the Eternal as unchanging and static---quite the opposite.
                 An archetype is a source or model which we seek creatively to embody in our creative lives. Great musicians will say they HEAR the melodies they "create": great artists will speak of "seeing" and "knowing" the subjects they create. The more a creation approaches the essential reality of its archetype, the more perfect the creator feels his creation to be.
               So, once again, I'd say it's important to realize that we participate in the archetypes as we create anything original: it's not either them OR us, but both.
                After all, the "spiritland" is described as "regions" but it's actually all within us.
            -Starman



            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, DoctorStarman@a... wrote:
            >leeanoonan@b... writes:
            >>Hi
            >>In the 3 lowest regions of Spirit we have the creative archetypes
            of physical forms, life, and soul.
            >>In the 4th the creative archetypes of purely human creations eg
            art, scientific creations.
            >>Steiner also says that everything in the physical and soul works
            is created by the archetypes.
            >>My lack of uderstanding is related to the 4th region. What are
            the creative archetypes creating here and what am I creating. I can
            >>sense the great art and science is received from the archetypes
            and brough to existance through me , But is this really the case for
            >>everthying that I create, for example this email?
            >>Lee
            >>
            >******Anytime you create something with original thinking, even the
            most trivial action. He says, "All that occupies us in our physical life
            outside the sphere of everyday living, wishing and willing has its source in
            this region."
            >-starman


            http://www.DrStarman.net
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