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RE: [steiner] Re: "Resist Not Evil" (The Desert Cult)

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  • LilOleMissy
    Dear Rick and Friends, Thank you, Rick, for supplying the URL for the elib Forum, which no doubt shall prove of great interest to many, as well as sharing your
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 30, 2003
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      Dear Rick and Friends,

      Thank you, Rick, for supplying the URL for the elib Forum, which no doubt
      shall prove of great interest to many, as well as sharing your thoughts
      that "dealing with evil is in the hands of superhuman beings, and that when
      men arrogate that role, they do not become superhuman, but subhuman." as
      you state below. Some of us, myself included, find this an interesting
      perspective, and one to most definitely ponder upon.

      James Stewart does indeed maintain with enormous devotion plus extremely
      difficult work a great number of Rudolf Steiner's works, as many of us have
      long been aware of and have contributed to from our own collections as well
      as adding to them. I've noticed over the years the various translations
      evolving from Steiner's original warmly careful and always enlightening
      repetitiousness towards a more concise "modern bluntness," so to say,
      although I can understand the wish of many to be faced with a more "popular
      format."

      It is kind of you to plan posting some of Steiner's passages, although I
      seem to recall his stating very often how his words should never be taken
      out of context, so to speak, but rather must remain with the whole while
      quoting him. It is becoming increasingly difficult for me to search through
      my Steiner library here at home, since a large portion of the more than
      4,000 lectures plus books in my possession antedate the changed titles as
      well as the GA numbers now used. I've found referencing by date and place
      seems to work best for me however slowly it goes.

      Thank you again, Rick, for sharing your always interesting thoughts.

      Sincerely,

      Sheila
      --Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad.

      rickbobbs <island.bobbs@...> wrote on 8/30/03 8:36:02 PM:
      > Dear Sheila; Sorry for the rather terse posting; I ran out of time
      > and the posting I refer to gives the best idea of what I mean on
      > short notice. Basically, Steiner provides a lot of evidence that the
      > dealing with evil is in the hands of superhuman beings, and that when
      > men arrogate that role, they do not become superhuman, but subhuman.
      > The paths of Christ, as presaged by Buddha, point to the actual
      > future evolution of the human. We have to defeat our own internal
      > evil, and seeming external offences and injustices must be faced with
      > a faith in God. Reincarnation is important here... as 3 -13 St. John
      > insists, no man gets into heaven who hasn't come from it, and Steiner
      > always quipped that those who believe in life after death should at
      > least be consistant and consider life before birth.
      >
      > Elib.com is the one site I've found that has any amount of what
      > Steiner actually wrote and said. Most others have lots of other
      > peoples ideas.... and worse! (Some are disgusting jokes) James
      > Stewart has posted about 400 lectures and several books, with the
      > best index of lectures in English I've found. The forum address is
      > www.elib.com/Steiner/Forums/eliboard.php3.
      >
      > I'm collecting a few more passages of Steiner's to illustrate my
      > point about his view; I'll post them sometime soon.
      >
      > Take care and give care, Rick.
    • rickbobbs
      Dear Sheila; You wouldn t happen to know the dates of the eight lectures recently published as The Fourth Dimension ? All I can find out is that they are from
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 4, 2003
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        Dear Sheila;

        You wouldn't happen to know the dates of the eight lectures recently
        published as "The Fourth Dimension"? All I can find out is that they
        are from 1905-1908, and I can't afford to buy any more 'repeats' that
        I already have, just published under different titles.

        Thanks for the note and any help you can give... busy times right
        now, Rick
      • rickbobbs
        Dear Folks: Thanks everso to Starman for your prompt reply. I m interested in confronting this book. The notion that Steiner ever encouraged the idea of a
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 6, 2003
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          Dear Folks:
          Thanks everso to Starman for your prompt reply. I'm interested in
          confronting this book. The notion that Steiner ever encouraged the
          idea of a 'fourth dimension' is totally false, and only adds to a
          list of misconceptions that the "Astronomical-mathematical Section"
          has laid at Steiner's feet over the years. This is actually
          (consciously or unconsciously doesn't matter) a method that is well
          know to the Desert Cult, and employed by them either in suit and tie,
          or turban and robe; oddly enough in a lecture cycle where he also
          said, referring to higher perception "One turns back to the second
          dimension and the third disappears;" (I'll post the full quote),
          Steiner described this 'occult imprisonment' clearly, as follows:


          "I hope you will not take this as a lack of respect for science -
          I fully recognise science - but compared with the truth, such things
          as these, though they cannot be too highly praised and appreciated in
          their brilliancy at the present time, are yet but dilettante as
          compared with the reality. On the other hand they show how man's
          thought itself drives him, with abstract concepts of light-radiations
          and electrons, to enter a region in which the reality is to be found.
          It is simply a question of coming to the relity, and of bringing into
          all the ideas arising in all directions, and of which no use can be
          made, that impulse which drives even modern research into Spiritual
          domains. In certain occult circles foolish practices are carried on.
          People are taught all sorts of occult doctrines which do not lead to
          the ultimate point in which this life originated. They are given
          pictures, but are not led to the origin of the pictures, to that of
          which they are the image. Thus they are surrounded in their souls
          with a world of pictures, instead of having the feeling that they
          must learn through these pictures to know the Universe.
          "For this reason, after publishing my book `Theosophy', I followed
          it up with `Occult Science'. In the latter, what had been presented
          in pictures in `Theosophy' is carried into the reality of the Stellar
          world, in the evolution through Saturn, Sun and Moon. These two books
          complete each other.
          "If in any sphere a man is given nothing but pictures, he will be
          surrounded by them.
          "People who carry on wrong occult practices, do this with those
          pupils of whom they have not gained complete possession, and by this
          means the latter are, as it were, occultly imprisoned. In these
          occult prisons man is surrounded by pictures which are not
          comprehensible to him and from which he cannot escape. By this means
          many evil occult practices have been and still are being carried on.
          There are also Spiritual beings who lead man, or part of man, into
          these occult prisons. This is a quite similar phenomenon. These
          Spiritual beings are set free in nature if we have no Spiritual
          understanding of it, and regard it in such a way that the atomistic
          processes are taken as being naturalistic, which means denying the
          spirit in nature. The so-called Ahrimanic beings, striving in
          opposition to man, then become active in nature and deceive man with
          all sorts of pictures; thus he may be led into occult captivity by
          these Ahrimanic Spiritual beings.
          "A great number of what are to-day known as scientific conceptions
          of nature, - not the scientific facts (these are good), are nothing
          but the pictures of an universal captivity, the danger of which is
          hanging over the head of humanity. Such a danger exists in the fact
          that man is everywhere surrounded by atomic and molecular pictures.
          An occult custody surrounds us with these pictures and we cannot
          perceive the free Spiritual and stellar pictures, because the world
          of the atoms forms, as it were, the psychic walls which enclose us in
          a prison in which we are Spiritually confined." (30 Aug. 1923, in:
          The Evolution of the World and of Humanity, 1989, pp.237-238)
        • rickbobbs
          Dear Folks; Steiner, like any realistic scientist, always wanted us to collect and correlate items of concrete knowledge . Here is another fact that relates
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 8, 2003
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            Dear Folks;
            Steiner, like any realistic scientist, always wanted us
            to 'collect and correlate items of concrete knowledge'. Here is
            another fact that relates to the direct methods referred to under
            this heading:

            "I hope you will not take what has been said to-day as
            propagandism of any sort, but look upon it as expressing existing
            facts. A man certainly must and ought to live with his times and when
            anything is described, he should not look upon it as all that is to
            be said on the subject; he should learn to strike the balance. It is
            quite natural that the world to-day should be confronted with
            impulses leading entirely to materialism. That cannot be prevented,
            it is connected with the deep needs of the age. But a counterbalance
            must be established. One very prominent means of driving man into
            materialism is the cinematograph. It has not been observed from this
            standpoint; but there is no better school for materialism than the
            cinema. For what one sees there is not reality as men see it. Only an
            age which has so little idea of reality as this age of ours, which
            worships reality as an idol in a material sense, could believe that
            the cinema represents reality. Any other age would consider whether
            men really walk along the street as seen at the cinema; people would
            ask themselves whether what they saw at such a performance really
            corresponded to reality. Ask yourself frankly and honourably, what is
            really most like what you see in the street: a picture painted by an
            artist, an immobile picture, or the dreadful sparkling pictures of
            the cinematograph. If you put the question to yourselves quite
            honourably, you will admit that what the artist reproduces in a state
            of rest is much more like what you see. Hence, while people are
            sitting at the cinema, what they see there does not make its way into
            the ordinary faculty of perception, it enters a deeper, more material
            stratum than we usually employ for our perception. A man becomes
            etherically goggle-eyed at the cinema; he develops eyes like those of
            a seal, only much larger, I mean larger etherically. This works in a
            materialising way, not only upon what he has in his consciousness,
            but upon his deepest sub-consciousness. Do not think I am abusing the
            cinematograph; I should like to say once more that it is quite
            natural it should exist, and it will attain far greater perfection as
            time goes on. That will be the road leading to materialism. But a
            counterbalance must be established, and that can only be created in
            the following way. With the search for reality which is being
            developed in the cinema, with this descent below sense-perception,
            man must at the same time develop an ascent above it, an ascent into
            Spiritual reality. Then the cinema will do him no harm, and he can
            see it as often as he likes. But unless the counterbalance is there,
            people will be led by such things as these, not to have their proper
            relation to the earth, but to become more and more closely related to
            it, until at last they are entirely shut off from the Spiritual
            world." (27 Feb. 1917, in: Cosmic and Human Metamorphoses, 1989, pp.
            44-45)

            Now, add to this the 'unreality presented as reality' that digital
            special effects are able to instill, as Steiner says, not in peoples
            consciousness, but in their subconscious.

            Take care, and give care.... Rick.
          • LilOleMissy
            Dear Rick and Friends, Thank you for bringing this to our attention, since it seems to me, hopefully erroneously, few are aware of these facts. Steiner spoke
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 8, 2003
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              Dear Rick and Friends,

              Thank you for bringing this to our attention, since it seems to me,
              hopefully erroneously, few are aware of these facts. Steiner spoke quite a
              bit regarding the deleterious effects of movies upon our inner being and
              the influences thereby brought to bear upon not only ourselves, but
              mankind, Spiritual Beings and the entire universe. I've found *Cosmic &
              Human Metamorphosis* to be one of those "special" works speaking so very
              much to me, but perhaps we all have certain works striking very deeply into
              our very souls. It was also through this work that I understood something
              regarding organ transplants, as well as many other concepts.

              Cheers,

              Sheila

              > Dear Folks;
              > Steiner, like any realistic scientist, always wanted us
              > to 'collect and correlate items of concrete knowledge'. Here is
              > another fact that relates to the direct methods referred to under
              > this heading:
              >
              > "I hope you will not take what has been said to-day as
              > propagandism of any sort, but look upon it as expressing existing
              > facts. A man certainly must and ought to live with his times and when
              > anything is described, he should not look upon it as all that is to
              > be said on the subject; he should learn to strike the balance. It is
              > quite natural that the world to-day should be confronted with
              > impulses leading entirely to materialism. That cannot be prevented,
              > it is connected with the deep needs of the age. But a counterbalance
              > must be established. One very prominent means of driving man into
              > materialism is the cinematograph. It has not been observed from this
              > standpoint; but there is no better school for materialism than the
              > cinema. For what one sees there is not reality as men see it. Only an
              > age which has so little idea of reality as this age of ours, which
              > worships reality as an idol in a material sense, could believe that
              > the cinema represents reality. Any other age would consider whether
              > men really walk along the street as seen at the cinema; people would
              > ask themselves whether what they saw at such a performance really
              > corresponded to reality. Ask yourself frankly and honourably, what is
              > really most like what you see in the street: a picture painted by an
              > artist, an immobile picture, or the dreadful sparkling pictures of
              > the cinematograph. If you put the question to yourselves quite
              > honourably, you will admit that what the artist reproduces in a state
              > of rest is much more like what you see. Hence, while people are
              > sitting at the cinema, what they see there does not make its way into
              > the ordinary faculty of perception, it enters a deeper, more material
              > stratum than we usually employ for our perception. A man becomes
              > etherically goggle-eyed at the cinema; he develops eyes like those of
              > a seal, only much larger, I mean larger etherically. This works in a
              > materialising way, not only upon what he has in his consciousness,
              > but upon his deepest sub-consciousness. Do not think I am abusing the
              > cinematograph; I should like to say once more that it is quite
              > natural it should exist, and it will attain far greater perfection as
              > time goes on. That will be the road leading to materialism. But a
              > counterbalance must be established, and that can only be created in
              > the following way. With the search for reality which is being
              > developed in the cinema, with this descent below sense-perception,
              > man must at the same time develop an ascent above it, an ascent into
              > Spiritual reality. Then the cinema will do him no harm, and he can
              > see it as often as he likes. But unless the counterbalance is there,
              > people will be led by such things as these, not to have their proper
              > relation to the earth, but to become more and more closely related to
              > it, until at last they are entirely shut off from the Spiritual
              > world." (27 Feb. 1917, in: Cosmic and Human Metamorphoses, 1989, pp.
              > 44-45)
              >
              > Now, add to this the 'unreality presented as reality' that digital
              > special effects are able to instill, as Steiner says, not in peoples
              > consciousness, but in their subconscious.
              >
              > Take care, and give care.... Rick.
            • rickbobbs
              ... Thanks for the reply; I d be very interested in references to Steiner s other comments re: film. I know that he warned about recordings as having
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 9, 2003
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                >Dear Sheila, & Folks;
                Thanks for the reply; I'd be very
                interested in references to Steiner's other comments re: film. I know
                that he warned about recordings as having deleterious, attractive
                influences on departed souls (i.e., attracting them back to earthly
                affairs), due to the penetrating power of voice, but I haven't
                referenced that either. As a musician, I had an old prejudice
                about 'dead guys' clogging up the industry, and disallowing the young
                artists from making a reasonable living, or often even being heard;
                but Steiner added quite another dimension to the problem!
                I'd also appreciate your pointing to which Steiner comments
                made you think of the issue of transplants as a 'health' method...
                way back when, I wondered (and still do) how many otherwise healthy
                children starve to death for the money spend keeping deathly
                sick 'rich' folks going. Bad, bad Karma there. Also, have you
                noticed? SARS and West Nile Virus are practically hysterical in the
                press. I figure that's why the hundreds of sick US forces personnel
                in Iraq have 'deadly pneumonia' instead of SARS - symptoms are the
                same, death rate is the same (low), but if you said SARS, the press
                would have to talk about it for months, whereas 'deadly pneumonia,
                well... I've seen it reported once on CBS, then you don't have to
                talk about it. And up here in Canada we've had 2 deaths from WNV...
                but one of them was a 92 year old with pneumonia -But he died from
                WEST NILE. Even a farce like that has to be talked up.

                Take care and give care, Rick
              • LilOleMissy
                Dear Rick and All, About Steiner s statements regarding the harm movies [and I d guess TV might also fall into the same category?] can cause, I don t recall
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 10, 2003
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                  Dear Rick and All,

                  About Steiner's statements regarding the harm movies [and I'd guess TV
                  might also fall into the same category?] can cause, I don't recall where I
                  came across that point, but it seems to me he was speaking of the effects
                  upon man and the Spiritual Worlds and Beings of the emotions elicited from
                  us by this medium. In other words, our emotions, thoughts and feelings have
                  a direct effect upon the spiritual worlds, and certainly movies bring these
                  out as well as these not having a basis in fact since they are not due to
                  real life experiences we have. I'd agree about recordings, Rick, which I
                  seem to feel Steiner referred to as "canned" music, speech, etc. as opposed
                  to a real performance seen and heard "in person." Since I've played piano
                  most of my life, it was also interesting to me to read Steiner seemed to
                  place the piano "lower on the scale" of musical instruments, but it seems
                  to do with the absence of human breath [pneumotosophy, if I haven't errred
                  in spelling] being involved as one would find in the wind instruments.
                  Steiner seemed to me to compare music at times with the "Music of the
                  Spheres," and he certainly loved good music.

                  About the health issue I seemed to gain from "Human and Cosmic
                  Metamorphosis," it was during the time I was working in medicine in
                  relation to transplants and his words "liver is not always liver" opened up
                  a vast world for me! I could "see," so to say, the world seemingly adapting
                  to the concept of Body Parts Sold Here as we do to Auto Parts Sold Here -
                  clear and simple without regard to the enormously vast spiritual
                  implications involved. It's been my experience that most transplants are
                  not often used for old sick rich people, but for children. It all gives me
                  the feeling of Frankensteins being created, and for me it's an example of a
                  seeming "good" actually being "harmful" instead.

                  You mention SARS and West Nile Fever, both of which appear to be among the
                  so-called "arising diseases," so to say, as is HIV/AIDS. Off and on there
                  have been many diseases seemingly standing out more than perhaps others may
                  be, and I wonder if perhaps the potential as well as the newness of such
                  mostly "unheard of before" conditions may play a part in publicizing these
                  things. The potential deadliness of these things is definitely to be taken
                  seriously, it seems, as well as their seeming to be par for the course in
                  some way for these current times. Twice I myself have survived pneumonia as
                  well as other diseases and I feel many more exoteric as well as esoteric
                  diseases will be playing far more important roles in our lives and in the
                  world itself, but my feelings on these matters may perhaps be slanted due
                  to my work.

                  Next time, maybe we could hear more about your music? It's certainly a
                  great part of my life.

                  Cheers!
                  Sheila

                  > >Dear Sheila, & Folks;
                  > Thanks for the reply; I'd be very
                  > interested in references to Steiner's other comments re: film. I know
                  > that he warned about recordings as having deleterious, attractive
                  > influences on departed souls (i.e., attracting them back to earthly
                  > affairs), due to the penetrating power of voice, but I haven't
                  > referenced that either. As a musician, I had an old prejudice
                  > about 'dead guys' clogging up the industry, and disallowing the young
                  > artists from making a reasonable living, or often even being heard;
                  > but Steiner added quite another dimension to the problem!
                  > I'd also appreciate your pointing to which Steiner comments
                  > made you think of the issue of transplants as a 'health' method...
                  > way back when, I wondered (and still do) how many otherwise healthy
                  > children starve to death for the money spend keeping deathly
                  > sick 'rich' folks going. Bad, bad Karma there. Also, have you
                  > noticed? SARS and West Nile Virus are practically hysterical in the
                  > press. I figure that's why the hundreds of sick US forces personnel
                  > in Iraq have 'deadly pneumonia' instead of SARS - symptoms are the
                  > same, death rate is the same (low), but if you said SARS, the press
                  > would have to talk about it for months, whereas 'deadly pneumonia,
                  > well... I've seen it reported once on CBS, then you don't have to
                  > talk about it. And up here in Canada we've had 2 deaths from WNV...
                  > but one of them was a 92 year old with pneumonia -But he died from
                  > WEST NILE. Even a farce like that has to be talked up.
                  >
                  > Take care and give care, Rick
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