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Re: [steiner] question

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... *******Well, first let me say that the discussion of politics seldom will lead to agreement between people, or even agreement that the other person is
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 15, 2003
      sarahwh@... writes:

      Dear Dr Starman,
      I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the current Iraq/US situation, as you always have interesting and thought provoking things to say about these issues.

      Does anthroposophy come into this dilemma the world is facing?
       
      ¸..· ´¨¨))  -:¦:-
          ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
        ((¸¸.·´  ..·´   -:¦:- Sarah
      -:¦:-    ((¸¸.·´*      


      *******Well, first let me say that the discussion of politics seldom will lead to agreement between people, or even agreement that the other person is entitled to their opinion in these days of "political correctness" where so many people believe there's only one right way to think about things. Then I'll make two further observations: first, it seems sometimes that virtually every New Ager (including anthroposophists) is an extreme left-winger, and doesn't even seem to realize or admit that; and, second, that many people who have just dabbled a little bit in Anthroposophy seem to confuse their own political opinions with knowledge actually derived from the spiritual world. I won't confuse my opinion with direct knowledge from the spiritual world: these will be just my opinions.

         First, I think that it's not a good thing that the English-speaking people, such as the U.S., England and Australia, have become the dominant powers in the world, nor do I think that Anglo-American creation, the United Nations, is a good thing. I fear it will lead to a world government such as that seen by the mystic Soloviev in his vision of the Antichrist's coming in the 21st century (and if people have never read that, perhaps I can scan it in and put it here).  So I can sympathize with some of the anti-U.S. attitudes people have.

         But not much. It may be that each world emergency, like the invasion of Kuwait, the genocide in Yugoslavia, and now the mass murders carried out by the fundamentalist Islamicists in the U.S. and Bali, is just leading us to a more powerful world government currently under the control primarily of the English-speaking peoples-- -- -- I think that's unfortunate, but no excuse for not taking action. We had to act in Serbia, and we have to act where conscience dictates.

            In this case I think action is absolutely required. If anyone watched Colin Powell's presentation to the U.N. he should have been convinced that this powerful madman in Babylon has been doing everything possible to develop biological and chemical weapons in secret-- -- -- for instance, putting the laboratories on railroad cars that can be moved everywhere around the country -- -- -- in order to continue his dream of dominating the Middle East militarily. Powell's presentation of the evidence even convinced anti-Bush columnist Marianne Means (see her Feb. 8th column "The Madman Must Be Stopped"), and liberal columnist Thomas Friedman characterized pretty well the foolishness of the position of the French ("Vote France off the Island", New York Times Feb. 11th), whose imitation of an ostrich (or perhaps Neville Chamberlain) is embarrassing to anyone at all aware of what's really happening.

         As to the connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, the latter has been financing al-Qaida in North Iraq for years, to keep the Kurds under control, a group known as Ansar al Islam, and that's where many al-Qaida went after the fall of Afghanistan. Hussein has been financing their terrorism, right along with bin Laden and wealthy Saudis. The goal of these fundamentalist nuts, to set off a nuclear weapon in either New York or Tel Aviv, is only realizable with the help of a modern industrial state. His is one they've been using.

         This is the primary danger we face in our time, now that the Soviet Union is no longer a threat, the danger of rogue nations and international terrorism motivated by ethno-nationalism (in this case, using a dark ages religion as a cover). It will take a concerted campaign by the entire civilized world to combat it over many years-- -- -- which is what it looked like we would have immediately after Sept. 11th 2001; but when the need to take actual action came closer, that alleged agreement among the civilized nations turned out to be more apparent than real. That doesn't really matter in this particular case: the United States needs no help to handle Iraq (in fact even the military forces of France and England are so far behind us that they just get in the way, as we're about to demonstrate), anymore than Israel needed anybody else's help to take out Hussein's nuclear reactor 20 years ago. What is needed, however, is for the so-called statesman of the European nations to start recognizing certain realities and to cease squabbling out of jealousy of the U.S. or playing to their own leftist voters.

          I think the world is faced with a crisis that has to be addressed, Not just this current madman, but what Steiner referred to as the surfacing of the Sun Demon Sorath ('666') about 1998, which he connected with Mohammedeanism. The characteristic of this demonic movement is to be against everything modern and Western, against individual freedom and consciousness, and, just as was the case with the very similar movement of Marxism, people in the West seem to have lost all sense of the value of the own culture that needs to be defended against it. I think people need to rediscover that culture and its spiritual basis of individualism, in order to see why these people planting bombs and flying planes into buildings cannot be justified in any way, but rather are EVIL.

         As Albert Camus said, "The hottest pits of Hell are reserved for those who, in a time of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

        I wonder if they still read him in France and Germany?

      Dr. Starman
      http://www.DrStarman.net
    • LilOleMissy
      sarahwh@tpgi.com.au writes: Dear Dr Starman, I d really like to hear your thoughts on the current Iraq/US situation, as you always have interesting and thought
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 16, 2003
         
        sarahwh@... writes:

        Dear Dr Starman,
        I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the current Iraq/US situation, as you always have interesting and thought provoking things to say about these issues.

        Does anthroposophy come into this dilemma the world is facing?
         
        ¸..· ´¨¨))  -:¦:-
            ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
          ((¸¸.·´  ..·´   -:¦:- Sarah
        -:¦:-    ((¸¸.·´*      


        *******Well, first let me say that the discussion of politics seldom will lead to agreement between people, or even agreement that the other person is entitled to their opinion in these days of "political correctness" where so many people believe there's only one right way to think about things. Then I'll make two further observations: first, it seems sometimes that virtually every New Ager (including anthroposophists) is an extreme left-winger, and doesn't even seem to realize or admit that; and, second, that many people who have just dabbled a little bit in Anthroposophy seem to confuse their own political opinions with knowledge actually derived from the spiritual world. I won't confuse my opinion with direct knowledge from the spiritual world: these will be just my opinions.

           First, I think that it's not a good thing that the English-speaking people, such as the U.S., England and Australia, have become the dominant powers in the world, nor do I think that Anglo-American creation, the United Nations, is a good thing. I fear it will lead to a world government such as that seen by the mystic Soloviev in his vision of the Antichrist's coming in the 21st century (and if people have never read that, perhaps I can scan it in and put it here).  So I can sympathize with some of the anti-U.S. attitudes people have.

           But not much. It may be that each world emergency, like the invasion of Kuwait, the genocide in Yugoslavia, and now the mass murders carried out by the fundamentalist Islamicists in the U.S. and Bali, is just leading us to a more powerful world government currently under the control primarily of the English-speaking peoples-- -- -- I think that's unfortunate, but no excuse for not taking action. We had to act in Serbia, and we have to act where conscience dictates.

              In this case I think action is absolutely required. If anyone watched Colin Powell's presentation to the U.N. he should have been convinced that this powerful madman in Babylon has been doing everything possible to develop biological and chemical weapons in secret-- -- -- for instance, putting the laboratories on railroad cars that can be moved everywhere around the country -- -- -- in order to continue his dream of dominating the Middle East militarily. Powell's presentation of the evidence even convinced anti-Bush columnist Marianne Means (see her Feb. 8th column "The Madman Must Be Stopped"), and liberal columnist Thomas Friedman characterized pretty well the foolishness of the position of the French ("Vote France off the Island", New York Times Feb. 11th), whose imitation of an ostrich (or perhaps Neville Chamberlain) is embarrassing to anyone at all aware of what's really happening.

           As to the connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, the latter has been financing al-Qaida in North Iraq for years, to keep the Kurds under control, a group known as Ansar al Islam, and that's where many al-Qaida went after the fall of Afghanistan. Hussein has been financing their terrorism, right along with bin Laden and wealthy Saudis. The goal of these fundamentalist nuts, to set off a nuclear weapon in either New York or Tel Aviv, is only realizable with the help of a modern industrial state. His is one they've been using.

           This is the primary danger we face in our time, now that the Soviet Union is no longer a threat, the danger of rogue nations and international terrorism motivated by ethno-nationalism (in this case, using a dark ages religion as a cover). It will take a concerted campaign by the entire civilized world to combat it over many years-- -- -- which is what it looked like we would have immediately after Sept. 11th 2001; but when the need to take actual action came closer, that alleged agreement among the civilized nations turned out to be more apparent than real. That doesn't really matter in this particular case: the United States needs no help to handle Iraq (in fact even the military forces of France and England are so far behind us that they just get in the way, as we're about to demonstrate), anymore than Israel needed anybody else's help to take out Hussein's nuclear reactor 20 years ago. What is needed, however, is for the so-called statesman of the European nations to start recognizing certain realities and to cease squabbling out of jealousy of the U.S. or playing to their own leftist voters.

            I think the world is faced with a crisis that has to be addressed, Not just this current madman, but what Steiner referred to as the surfacing of the Sun Demon Sorath ('666') about 1998, which he connected with Mohammedeanism. The characteristic of this demonic movement is to be against everything modern and Western, against individual freedom and consciousness, and, just as was the case with the very similar movement of Marxism, people in the West seem to have lost all sense of the value of the own culture that needs to be defended against it. I think people need to rediscover that culture and its spiritual basis of individualism, in order to see why these people planting bombs and flying planes into buildings cannot be justified in any way, but rather are EVIL.

           As Albert Camus said, "The hottest pits of Hell are reserved for those who, in a time of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

          I wonder if they still read him in France and Germany?

        Dr. Starman
        http://www.DrStarman.net
         
        Dear Friends,
         
        Excellent question and excellent reply! Thank you, Sarah, and thank you, Dr. Starman for your always clear thoughts. I am one Anthroposophist who is not a left winger and I'm not sure what that implies in Anthroposophical thought, but perhaps that doesn't matter in contrast to the Evil currently facing the world from Islamic radicalism. I was sickened by the cowardly behavior and denial shown by the world's representatives, with 4 rare exceptions, in the UN's Council the other day in the face of truth - truth so earnestly visible coming from Colin Powell. How delighted the Evil Beings working through human beings were! Soloviev indeed saw and realized what was and is still invisible to the vast majority of mankind, and as a very young teenager, Albert Camus' writing awakened within me an everlasting insight into many human reactions elicited by the same behavior patterns the vast majority of the world is today hopelessly attempting to avoid with their heads in the sand. How very clearly I can still hear my mother's words of truth from so long ago, speaking of the inception of the UN as a failure, so clearly shown in Friday's shameful parody of "world leadership." For anyone to think I fail to understand the horrors of war, I can only say I spent three years during the Vietnam fiasco working in various M.A.S.H. facilities. Unless mankind destroys this current EVIL as well as its many tentacles, the civilized world is totally lost as is mankind himself.
         
        Blessings to All,
         
        Sheila
         

         
      • Sarah
        Dear Dr Starman, Thanks for your generous answer. It s raised a few more questions, though. Why do you think it isn t a good thing to have an english speaking
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 16, 2003
          Dear Dr Starman,
          Thanks for your generous answer. It's raised a few more questions, though.
          Why do you think it isn't a good thing to have an english speaking world
          government, and what might otherwise be the ideal?
          Sarah

          ps I'd also love to hear what other people on this list think.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 01:21:16 EST
          From: DRStarman2001@...
          Subject: Re: question

          *******Well, first let me say that the discussion of politics seldom will
          lead to agreement between people, or even agreement that the other person is
          entitled to their opinion in these days of "political correctness" where so
          many people believe there's only one right way to think about things. Then
          I'll make two further observations: first, it seems sometimes that virtually
          every New Ager (including anthroposophists) is an extreme left-winger, and
          doesn't even seem to realize or admit that; and, second, that many people
          who
          have just dabbled a little bit in Anthroposophy seem to confuse their own
          political opinions with knowledge actually derived from the spiritual world.
          I won't confuse my opinion with direct knowledge from the spiritual world:
          these will be just my opinions.

          First, I think that it's not a good thing that the English-speaking
          people, such as the U.S., England and Australia, have become the dominant
          powers in the world, nor do I think that Anglo-American creation, the United
          Nations, is a good thing. I fear it will lead to a world government such as
          that seen by the mystic Soloviev in his vision of the Antichrist's coming in
          the 21st century (and if people have never read that, perhaps I can scan it
          in and put it here). So I can sympathize with some of the anti-U.S.
          attitudes people have.

          But not much. It may be that each world emergency, like the invasion of
          Kuwait, the genocide in Yugoslavia, and now the mass murders carried out by
          the fundamentalist Islamicists in the U.S. and Bali, is just leading us to a
          more powerful world government currently under the control primarily of the
          English-speaking peoples-- -- -- I think that's unfortunate, but no excuse
          for not taking action. We had to act in Serbia, and we have to act where
          conscience dictates.

          In this case I think action is absolutely required. If anyone watched
          Colin Powell's presentation to the U.N. he should have been convinced that
          this powerful madman in Babylon has been doing everything possible to
          develop
          biological and chemical weapons in secret-- -- -- for instance, putting the
          laboratories on railroad cars that can be moved everywhere around the
          country
          -- -- -- in order to continue his dream of dominating the Middle East
          militarily. Powell's presentation of the evidence even convinced anti-Bush
          columnist Marianne Means (see her Feb. 8th column "The Madman Must Be
          Stopped"), and liberal columnist Thomas Friedman characterized pretty well
          the foolishness of the position of the French ("Vote France off the Island",
          New York Times Feb. 11th), whose imitation of an ostrich (or perhaps Neville
          Chamberlain) is embarrassing to anyone at all aware of what's really
          happening.

          As to the connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, the
          latter has been financing al-Qaida in North Iraq for years, to keep the
          Kurds
          under control, a group known as Ansar al Islam, and that's where many
          al-Qaida went after the fall of Afghanistan. Hussein has been financing
          their
          terrorism, right along with bin Laden and wealthy Saudis. The goal of these
          fundamentalist nuts, to set off a nuclear weapon in either New York or Tel
          Aviv, is only realizable with the help of a modern industrial state. His is
          one they've been using.

          This is the primary danger we face in our time, now that the Soviet Union
          is no longer a threat, the danger of rogue nations and international
          terrorism motivated by ethno-nationalism (in this case, using a dark ages
          religion as a cover). It will take a concerted campaign by the entire
          civilized world to combat it over many years-- -- -- which is what it looked
          like we would have immediately after Sept. 11th 2001; but when the need to
          take actual action came closer, that alleged agreement among the civilized
          nations turned out to be more apparent than real. That doesn't really matter
          in this particular case: the United States needs no help to handle Iraq (in
          fact even the military forces of France and England are so far behind us
          that
          they just get in the way, as we're about to demonstrate), anymore than
          Israel
          needed anybody else's help to take out Hussein's nuclear reactor 20 years
          ago. What is needed, however, is for the so-called statesman of the European
          nations to start recognizing certain realities and to cease squabbling out
          of
          jealousy of the U.S. or playing to their own leftist voters.

          I think the world is faced with a crisis that has to be addressed, Not
          just this current madman, but what Steiner referred to as the surfacing of
          the Sun Demon Sorath ('666') about 1998, which he connected with
          Mohammedeanism. The characteristic of this demonic movement is to be against
          everything modern and Western, against individual freedom and consciousness,
          and, just as was the case with the very similar movement of Marxism, people
          in the West seem to have lost all sense of the value of the own culture that
          needs to be defended against it. I think people need to rediscover that
          culture and its spiritual basis of individualism, in order to see why these
          people planting bombs and flying planes into buildings cannot be justified
          in
          any way, but rather are EVIL.

          As Albert Camus said, "The hottest pits of Hell are reserved for those
          who, in a time of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

          I wonder if they still read him in France and Germany?

          Dr. Starman
          http://www.DrStarman.net


          [This message contained attachments]



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        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          ... *******Well, that s actually from Rudolf Steiner. when he talked about the different folk souls that ruled different nations, he said that it would be
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 16, 2003
            sarahwh@... writes:
            Dear Dr Starman,
            Thanks for your generous answer. It's raised a few more questions, though.
            Why do you think it isn't a good thing to have an english speaking world
            government, and what might otherwise be the ideal?
            Sarah
            ps I'd also love to hear what other people on this list think.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



            *******Well, that's actually from Rudolf Steiner. when he talked about the different "folk souls" that ruled different nations, he said that it would be very harmful if the English-speaking peoples became completely dominant in the world, culturally speaking. This is why for many years the anthroposophical society resisted doing anything in English at the world headquarters. Speaking in a language has a subconscious influence on how you think, and English has a sort of built-in bias to look at thinking as merely making a copy of something external to you, unlike German for instance. Therefore it encourages materialism.

               I'd also love to hear what other people think, especially trying to look at our current world situation from out of their anthroposophical study.
            -Starman



              Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 01:21:16 EST
              From: DRStarman2001@...
            Subject: Re: question

            *******Well, first let me say that the discussion of politics seldom will
            lead to agreement between people, or even agreement that the other person is
            entitled to their opinion in these days of "political correctness" where so
            many people believe there's only one right way to think about things. Then
            I'll make two further observations: first, it seems sometimes that virtually
            every New Ager (including anthroposophists) is an extreme left-winger, and
            doesn't even seem to realize or admit that; and, second, that many people
            who
            have just dabbled a little bit in Anthroposophy seem to confuse their own
            political opinions with knowledge actually derived from the spiritual world.
            I won't confuse my opinion with direct knowledge from the spiritual world:
            these will be just my opinions.

              First, I think that it's not a good thing that the English-speaking
            people, such as the U.S., England and Australia, have become the dominant
            powers in the world, nor do I think that Anglo-American creation, the United
            Nations, is a good thing. I fear it will lead to a world government such as
            that seen by the mystic Soloviev in his vision of the Antichrist's coming in
            the 21st century (and if people have never read that, perhaps I can scan it
            in and put it here).  So I can sympathize with some of the anti-U.S.
            attitudes people have.

              But not much. It may be that each world emergency, like the invasion of
            Kuwait, the genocide in Yugoslavia, and now the mass murders carried out by
            the fundamentalist Islamicists in the U.S. and Bali, is just leading us to a
            more powerful world government currently under the control primarily of the
            English-speaking peoples-- -- -- I think that's unfortunate, but no excuse
            for not taking action. We had to act in Serbia, and we have to act where
            conscience dictates.

               In this case I think action is absolutely required. If anyone watched
            Colin Powell's presentation to the U.N. he should have been convinced that
            this powerful madman in Babylon has been doing everything possible to
            develop
            biological and chemical weapons in secret-- -- -- for instance, putting the
            laboratories on railroad cars that can be moved everywhere around the
            country
            -- -- -- in order to continue his dream of dominating the Middle East
            militarily. Powell's presentation of the evidence even convinced anti-Bush
            columnist Marianne Means (see her Feb. 8th column "The Madman Must Be
            Stopped"), and liberal columnist Thomas Friedman characterized pretty well
            the foolishness of the position of the French ("Vote France off the Island",
            New York Times Feb. 11th), whose imitation of an ostrich (or perhaps Neville
            Chamberlain) is embarrassing to anyone at all aware of what's really
            happening.

              As to the connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, the
            latter has been financing al-Qaida in North Iraq for years, to keep the
            Kurds
            under control, a group known as Ansar al Islam, and that's where many
            al-Qaida went after the fall of Afghanistan. Hussein has been financing
            their
            terrorism, right along with bin Laden and wealthy Saudis. The goal of these
            fundamentalist nuts, to set off a nuclear weapon in either New York or Tel
            Aviv, is only realizable with the help of a modern industrial state. His is
            one they've been using.

              This is the primary danger we face in our time, now that the Soviet Union
            is no longer a threat, the danger of rogue nations and international
            terrorism motivated by ethno-nationalism (in this case, using a dark ages
            religion as a cover). It will take a concerted campaign by the entire
            civilized world to combat it over many years-- -- -- which is what it looked
            like we would have immediately after Sept. 11th 2001; but when the need to
            take actual action came closer, that alleged agreement among the civilized
            nations turned out to be more apparent than real. That doesn't really matter
            in this particular case: the United States needs no help to handle Iraq (in
            fact even the military forces of France and England are so far behind us
            that
            they just get in the way, as we're about to demonstrate), anymore than
            Israel
            needed anybody else's help to take out Hussein's nuclear reactor 20 years
            ago. What is needed, however, is for the so-called statesman of the European
            nations to start recognizing certain realities and to cease squabbling out
            of
            jealousy of the U.S. or playing to their own leftist voters.

              I think the world is faced with a crisis that has to be addressed, Not
            just this current madman, but what Steiner referred to as the surfacing of
            the Sun Demon Sorath ('666') about 1998, which he connected with
            Mohammedeanism. The characteristic of this demonic movement is to be against
            everything modern and Western, against individual freedom and consciousness,
            and, just as was the case with the very similar movement of Marxism, people
            in the West seem to have lost all sense of the value of the own culture that
            needs to be defended against it. I think people need to rediscover that
            culture and its spiritual basis of individualism, in order to see why these
            people planting bombs and flying planes into buildings cannot be justified
            in
            any way, but rather are EVIL.

              As Albert Camus said, "The hottest pits of Hell are reserved for those
            who, in a time of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

            I wonder if they still read him in France and Germany?

            Dr. Starman



            http://www.DrStarman.net
          • S. Groth <sgroth@bredband.net>
            ... Saddam in Iraq right now, is the Iraqi commies ... All other cowards sit and whine in Washington asking Bush to bomb the bastard so they can install
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 19, 2003
              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

              > > against
              > > everything modern and Western, against individual freedom and
              > > consciousness,
              > > and, just as was the case with the very similar movement of
              >>Marxism, Actually the ones having their ass on the line and figthing
              Saddam in Iraq right now, is the Iraqi commies ...
              All other cowards sit and whine in Washington asking Bush to bomb the
              bastard so they can install themselves as a political elite....
              yesterday they hoped for privileges lickin Saddams ass... now they
              lick Bush's and promise to keep out of the way for american
              "interests" if just they can get their piece of the cake .....

              So the ones having mercy with the suffering of the people under the
              tyrant Saddam and the sincerity to put their ass on the line is God
              Damn it the pinko commie iraqi's (well and some moderate islamists) -
              and they are the ones who also oppose islamo-fascist politics..... in
              a choice between real options I think in a post-cold war world they
              aren't the worst bunch to wish the best of luck and may their bullets
              find their way to the heart of the beast --

              The whole idea in threefolding is that politics - and here also
              military, defense - is dealing primarily with human to human relations
              .... what is equal between individuals - as we often have noticed the
              angels leave the room when we discuss politics.. and that is just
              because politics is no spiritual matter - well it is in the world
              today as we haven't clear seperations in the appropriate spheres - and
              some mix religion, cultural idendity aso with politics -
              so we have the phenomen "political islam" which most certainly isn't
              the same as the faith islam - and we have "political christianity",
              which in no way represent the christ-impulse ....

              So what we see is expectations from the right that the political
              leadership shall fix spiritual/cultural matters
              and from the liberal left that it should fix economical matters ....

              But to deal with the rights question in a sincere way with respect for
              each individual human beings equal rigth to freedom, life and
              prosperity - is mostly done as fine proclamations..... when the
              reality is there, some individuals rigths count more than others and
              if there's an extra buck to win on being an asshole it's done.

              Sören
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