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Re: the color of politics

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  • Pacbay
    So let me understand, an increase in an off election year from 36 to 39% of the voters is considered good. Ummm. That sounds reasonable. Lets throw out 15%
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 7, 2002
       
       
      So let me understand, an increase in an off election year from 36 to 39% of the voters is considered  good. Ummm. That sounds reasonable.   Lets throw out 15% of all voters who should not vote under any conditions (mental illness, poor education, Green party, libertarian, et.al.), and we still have a pitiful political process. It has been my contention, that only when the middle class get hits really hard with something will the clarion call from the film Network ring out: I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore." Health care is almost there and certain economic sectors are close. It will be interesting. 
       
       To other democratic countries this is farce, and again something that points to a smelly malaise and disgust by most. Interview after interview which real people not "experts" point to two recurring themes where "true or not": 
       
      It won't make a difference.
      They are all corrupt and dishonest.
       
       I guess it depends on which radio or TV station one listens to: as usual there is always point counter point (as often in this forum) rather than:
       
      "wait, lets see what is the best solution for a particular problem or issue (rather act like lemmings with an "agenda") Eliminating the estate tax may be a great idea for everyone and it doesn't have to be Rep or Demo sacred cow. Protecting the environment and water supplies (now at the worst pollution levels in history) should be non-partisan as should be protecting social security funds or waging war. It is funny that we continue to call it "war" against Hussein and Iraq. If it happens, it will be a rapid incursion forcing surrender since no country on earth can equally face up to the fire power of the US. War should much more ominous and necessary. The same for terrorism. Terrorism is just that. It has been going on for centuries yet it is rarely called "war against".  War usually refers to a decision by one nation to attack another or defend itself. But times have changed and lines are blurred. But war certainly is more profitable for arms producers and high tech companies.

         A general rule of thumb among poll inspectors is that about half the people who supposedly could register to vote do so, and about half of those who register actually will vote. A little bit more in presidential years, less in off years. So 39 percent is pretty good for an off-year.

         So there is no basis for ascribing motives to the 60 percent of allegedly 'eligible' voters for not voting, as if they were doing so intentionally and you could interpret what their intention was and the supposed 'message' it is sending.

         But since the Democratic Party, which has blocked the creation of a Homeland Security Department and is against war with Iraq, made this election a referendum on President Bush -- -- -- targeting his brother in Florida, targeting the races in Texas -- -- -- the fact that a large number of voters came out and voted AGAINST Democratic candidates and in support of President Bush, definitely does send a message that is not just an imagined one.
       
      Again being a Demo doesn't necessarily mean voting for the entire party line. I didn't. I voted for the person  not the party. You imply that the creation of Homeland Security and beginning a pre-emptive  war against Iraq was an anti-Bush and anti-American move by Demos when it certainly was much more. The rapid installation of this department and planning for the war had unresolved lack of support from other countries like France, England, and Middle Eastern nations including Saudi Arabia - which now incidentally has refused to offer their land as a launch pad for any assault on Iraq). 
       
        Homeland Security Department policies have proven to include serious civil liberty issues as well as budgeting and cross over redundancy from other agencies. I think it was a good idea to stop the Hummers from rolling across America and see where duplication is present, reorganize, coordinate agencies, and establish an appropriate budget instead of an open bank account.And no one has really answered the base line question: where the hell is all this money coming from. The estimate of 100 billion dollars plus for Afghanistan and Iraq is not coming the local Canon copy machines at Kinko's. This is a serious problem for the future of the economy and social programs on the books.
       
      Jeff
       
    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... estimated at 39 percent of all the eligible voters yesterday, where it was 36 percent in 1986 and 1990. Check the statistics. And that is a percentage of
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 7, 2002

        >>>> you're wrong when you say that voter turnout is declining; it was estimated at 39 percent of all the eligible voters yesterday, where it was 36 percent in 1986 and 1990. Check the statistics. And that is a percentage of all the "eligible" voters, which is a little deceptive, since it includes everybody over 18 who can breathe. Many of those people are listed as "eligible" but have never had the slightest bit of interest in doing so, or in many cases would not even know how to, or understand what they were participating in if they did---people with mental illness, alcoholic homeless people, etc. (And that's not even to speak of the the fact that a large number of these people don't even exist, as I know from participation in the 1990 and 2000 Censuses: they're fictitious residents that are counted just for purposes of receiving more federal money.)
            A general rule of thumb among poll inspectors is that about half the people who supposedly could register to vote do so, and about half of those who register actually will vote. A little bit more in presidential years, less in off years. So 39 percent is pretty good for an off-year.

        pacbay@... writes:

        So let me understand, an increase in an off election year from 36 to 39% of the voters is considered  good. Ummm. That sounds reasonable.   Lets throw out 15% of all voters who should not vote under any conditions (mental illness, poor education, Green party, libertarian, et.al.), and we still have a pitiful political process...


        *******Jeff,  to ascribe to me things I never said, like that people with poor education should not be allowed to vote or that people registered to third parties should be excluded (especially ridiculous as I am a libertarian), is going beyond acceptable standards of conversation. As anybody can tell by reading what I actually said (which you left off your post) and your response to it above, you distorted my words in order to create an impression I said something I never said. I haven't had to remove anybody from this list yet.  Don't be the first. I don't appreciate such behavior. Politics of course arouses strong emotions, but is no excuse for lying and demonizing one's opponent. Sheila posted about the election and I said we could have a little discussion of it. but as so often, it doesn't lead to anything fruitful.

            Other so-called anthroposophical lists, I notice, have accepted having a tone that prevents or destroys spiritual knowledge, but I have no wish to have that tone here.

            Your words above were already responded to in the previous post supplying the argument that low voter turnout is usually a sign that voters are happy with the way things are, not a negative thing. Traditionally for a longtime in America we have not kept close track of our constantly mobile population, so a large percentage of it exists statistically, but does not stay in one place long enough to register to vote. It's a sign of freedom when people can live a private life and not have to be concerned with what a government is doing. Many exercise that freedom.



           So there is no basis for ascribing motives to the 60 percent of allegedly 'eligible' voters for not voting, as if they were doing so intentionally and you could interpret what their intention was and the supposed 'message' it is sending.
           But since the Democratic Party, which has blocked the creation of a Homeland Security Department and is against war with Iraq, made this election a referendum on President Bush -- -- -- targeting his brother in Florida, targeting the races in Texas -- -- -- the fact that a large number of voters came out and voted AGAINST Democratic candidates and in support of President Bush, definitely does send a message that is not just an imagined one.

        Again being a Demo doesn't necessarily mean voting for the entire party line. I didn't. I voted for the person  not the party. You imply that the creation of Homeland Security and beginning a pre-emptive  war against Iraq was an anti-Bush and anti-American move by Demos when it certainly was much more. The rapid installation of this department and planning for the war had unresolved lack of support from other countries like France, England, and Middle Eastern nations including Saudi Arabia - which now incidentally has refused to offer their land as a launch pad for any assault on Iraq)...


        *******What other countries have to say has no bearing, and never could have any bearing, on the creation of a homeland security department here in the U.S. in response to foreigners coming in and killing our citizens. No country is required to consult other countries on protecting its borders. As to the "rapid installation" of this department, it's been well over a year since we were attacked, and the minority of the opposition party in the Senate has blocked its creation. They have not proposed and passed an alternative, but have simply allowed us to do nothing. Now we just had an election which was a referendum on their stand, and they were thrown out of power. Now it will be created, along with numerous reforms of the Immigration and Naturalization Service which allowed dangerous foreigners to get into the U.S. and stay here. The other countries you speak about all already do this.
            Of course people can have concerns about undermining civil rights, but all such rights can be suspended in an emergency. Every government has the power to do so, and all do during wartime.
           Election day is past now, and so I think we should leave politics alone here.

        Dr. Starman

        http://www.DrStarman.net
      • LilOleMiss
        ... I should have known better than to post private thoughts onto a Spiritual list, and I very sincerely apologize for doing so. If I m not mistaken, Steiner
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 7, 2002
          Dr. Starman wrote:

          > Sheila posted about the election and I said we could have a little
          > discussion of it. but as so often, it doesn't lead to anything fruitful.

          I should have known better than to post private thoughts onto a
          Spiritual list, and I very sincerely apologize for doing so. If I'm not
          mistaken, Steiner mentions in his "Life Bet. Death & Rebirth in Relation
          to Cosmic Facts," to the effect that no one party is superior to another
          - there are other forces at work. Many of my personal thoughts are
          derived from my own experiences as a late teenager fleeing for my very
          life from Islamic Fundamentalism, a traumatic interjection which I had
          no right to impose upon others.

          On to better and higher realities - as Dr. Starman mentioned, isn't
          Advent arriving soon? Already there is a "sense" somehow of subtle
          changes in the earth's breathing - much wisdom waits to be found.

          Blessings,

          Sheila

          > Other so-called anthroposophical lists, I notice, have accepted
          > having a tone that prevents or destroys spiritual knowledge, but I
          > have no wish to have that tone here.
          >
          >
        • golden3000997@cs.com
          Sheila, Starman et al, I can only add my personal preferences in all of this. First, as I stated before, I like having this a general, open forum where people
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 7, 2002
            Sheila, Starman et al,

            I can only add my personal preferences in all of this. First, as I stated
            before, I like having this a general, open forum where people feel free to
            bring up any topic they would like, even if it is emotional or controversial.
            I certainly hope that there are no subjects that can't be discussed in the
            light of Anthroposophy. I also hope that we can all bring an air of
            forebearance, and even if we strongly disagree with someone's thoughts or
            feelings, we can say so without attacking, criticizing or condemning the
            person for having them.

            I don't have anyone around me that I can talk to about any of the subjects
            that have been brought up here (without the other person's eyes glazing
            over), so I really enjoy the exchanges. I personally, however, dont' wish to
            participate in an actual study because when I get home from work, I just
            don't want to use what few brain cells I may have left. I also think that the
            study of a work like Philosophy of Freedom is a project that should take
            longer than two weeks. I am surprised at Ashley asking for it, because she
            has been taking teacher training and that has always been the starting point!

            However, if there are 7 or 8 people who have the time, energy, interest and
            will to tackle it over the holidays - go for it!

            Sometimes forums have different threads for posting. I don't know how this is
            set up, or if the Yahoo Forums can accommodate such a division, but that's
            OK, too. If the subject line lets us read what the post is about, we can
            delete it if we don't want to take the time to read it. What I think would be
            fun, though, would be if everyone shared at least one passage from something
            by Steiner, a Waldorf or Anthropop source, or any other related material
            regarding Advent and Christmas that they wish to share. Even our "creative
            writing". I have poems that I wrote at Christmas through the years and a
            collection of stories about Saint Nicholas that I wrote for my Kindergarten
            children. I also have many old volumes of the Christian Community newsletters
            and old Journals of Anthroposophy and lord knows what else around here. I
            would be happy to go on a quest if someone wanted a particular topic explored.

            I think an in-depth study is best done face to face. It is a living process
            in which much is communicated under, between and beyond the words spoken
            within a group of individuals.

            As far as the voting percentages thing goes, there are "lies, damned lies and
            statistics" - I'm not sure that the numbers are the whole truth of the
            matter. Politically, I believe what is in the two websites I shared with
            Sheila and I don't believe what we are being told by the media about anything
            that is going on. But you can put me in with the crazies who didn't vote. I
            was on my way to vote (really) but I found a stranded cat along the way and
            had to bring him home and then go to work. Now I have 10.5 cats - another
            story and another interesting statistic!!!

            : ) Christine
          • golden3000997@cs.com
            P.S. Anyone want to chat about the Two Jesus Children? : )
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 7, 2002
              P.S. Anyone want to chat about the Two Jesus Children? : )
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