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Re: [steiner] Re: Platonists and Aristotelians

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... ******Well, you certainly sound more Platonic than Aristotelian, but I wouldn t really want to judge so quickly. Platonists seldom demand to see things
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 6 6:18 PM
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      info@... writes:
      Hi Dr Starman!
      Thanks for your reply. I enjoy your writings, short or long. Now I
      am willing to pay you your two cents for a consultation on
      my "status".
      I am born in Berlin on may 2nd 1946. A graphic designer by trade -
      even doing some painting. I feel more atracction to Christ as a
      cosmic being than to his Jesus appearing. I read some books on
      astronomi/astrosophy by Vreede and Powell to find out if I am
      interested in this topic. But I can't say that I feel a desire to
      penetrate it. At the most on starwisdom I re-drawed Steiner's
      planetary seals and colorized them. Of Steiner books I fancy his
      philosophical books the most.
      In your experience, does this give you a picture of what stream this
      fits to?
      Wondering, Lutz


      ******Well, you certainly sound more "Platonic" than Aristotelian, but I wouldn't really want to judge so quickly. Platonists seldom demand to see things proved in the material world, but you were born at the New Moon in Taurus, so I'd expect you would only want to accept what you could see!

      Dr. Starman


      Dr Starman, earlier:
      > > ******* Platonic means people who relate to pure ideas without having to see them demonstrated in matter. There are artists or ministers, never engineers. Engineers are pagans. They may have a  "Christian" belief-system opn the side, but that's superficial: science IS pagan, period. Only people influenced by ancient pagan incarnations are cosmologists, astronomers etc.

          I'm sure you can identify the
      other "simple" child-like group who "believe on Jesus and the Bible" and think that  enables them to know all the answers--- but couldn't figure out how their refrigerators worked if their lives depended on it.
      >      Guess I'm showing which group I'm in---as if, as a former Waldorf HS science  teacher, astronomer and cosmologist, I could hide. I am one of the Aristotelians Steiner saw coming. I can identify some of the others and  also some of the Platonists. I still see very little of the cooperation going on that he said would be needed between these two groups.
      > > Dr. Starman


    • antrolutz
      Thanks a lot, Dr Starman! (where do I send the two cents?) You wrote earlier: The 12 signs or Tropical Astrology pictures our habit-selves in the Etheric
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 7 5:20 AM
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        Thanks a lot, Dr Starman!
        (where do I send the two cents?)
        You wrote earlier:
        "The 12 signs or Tropical Astrology pictures our habit-selves in the
        Etheric Body, while the stars or sidereal astrology show the Astral
        Body."

        Which of these did you used when finding the New Moon in Taurus?

        By reading Powell I got the impression the sideral view moves
        everything one step, meaning Sun in Taurus becomes Sun in Ares. Is
        that so?

        Lutz


        > ******Well, you certainly sound more "Platonic" than Aristotelian,
        but I
        > wouldn't really want to judge so quickly. Platonists seldom demand
        to see
        > things proved in the material world, but you were born at the New
        Moon in
        > Taurus, so I'd expect you would only want to accept what you could
        see!
      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        alvesbarbosa@yahoo.com writes ... *******Well, there are many points of view about the Platonists and Aristotelians, but here I want to put in my point of view
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 9 8:59 PM
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          alvesbarbosa@... writes

          I read millions of times the books of Steiner but Inever join any AS. I think there are two differente things:1. Steiner and his books; 2. The antroposophists.

          *******Well, there are many points of view about the Platonists and Aristotelians, but here I want to put in my point of view relative to what you said there. In re-founding the Society in 1923, Dr. Steiner said that previously there had been an anthroposophic movement and an Anthroposophic Society, but from that point on they are the same. To believe one is "in the movement" while not supporting the Society through membership is, I believe, to allow anti-social influences (which come from the being we know as Lucifer) to affect one too strongly. There is no other organization that will support eurythmy, anthroposophic medicine, the Waldorf Schools, etc. Look at the sad history of the Theosophical Society and you'll see what happens when people allow egotism to make them feel that others in the Society are beneath them and they'd rather go off and do their own thing.
              Of course we Society members are fallible human beings---as Billy Graham said, "There is no perfect church, and if there was, it'd become imperfect the minute YOU joined it." But look at what the people who go off by themselves---the Tombergs and Heindels and Gurdjieffs ad nauseum--- accomplish, and then look at what THIS movement is accomplishing. Where are the schools and clinics established by all those who were so self-important that they had to make a schism?  As the Edgar Cayce Readings put it about 'being of one mind', "They are of one mind to do good---they are of many minds to do evil"---in other words, people striving after the Right come together, rather than quarreling and making factions.
              The Anthroposophical Society deserves the support of everyone who recognizes the importance of what Rudolf Steiner gave to the world. Even if you are too anti-social to participate in a group---which would be sad--- support it with your dues. It costs no more than joining Greenpeace or the Sierra Club or whatnot. But even better if you join a group. On the Path of Occult Development, a great danger is egotism that deludes one into thinking he is rising higher and higher, when actually he is just puffing himself up. A sure measure of this is if you cannot meet people at their own level, as man to man. People who can't, resign from the Society or never join.
             In Goethe's Fairy Tale, the Man With The Lamp says "He is not helpful who acts alone, but he who acts with others at the proper hour."

          Starman
        • Francisco Barbosa
          I totally agree with you, Dr. Starman. Nobody as a greater sense of what a group is than me. Do not forget I was born with my south node on the VII in
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 10 4:09 AM
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            I totally agree with you, Dr. Starman. Nobody as a
            greater sense of what a group is than me. Do not
            forget I was born with my south node on the VII in
            Capricorn a perfect �tribe man�.
            Never the less, I keep reminding the difference
            between Steiner and the groups.
            Lots of people read Steiner and they are touched by
            his writings. Than they go and look after a
            anthroposophical Society. Somehow projecting, or
            with a certain expectation on what they are going to
            find. Once they get there, the reality is different.
            It is not better or worse, it�s just different from
            what they thought. And they have to adapt.
            Now! Reality: there are more people reading Steiner,
            than people joining the Ass
            I do know if you agree Dr., but I think that the
            first step in order to progress in the path is
            �Reverence�.
            �And we rise rapidly when we fill our consciousness
            in such moments with thoughts evoking in us ADMIRATIN,
            respect and VENERATION for the world and for life�
            �Reverence awakens in the soul a sympathetic power
            through which we attract qualities in the beings
            around us, which would otherwise remain concealed�


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          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            ... ******Exactly, and the opposite, criticism, blinds us to the qualities of other beings. This is what I see in our age of criticism, is that people join
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 10 4:36 PM
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              alvesbarbosa@... writes:
              I keep reminding the difference between Steiner and the groups.
                  Lots of people read Steiner and they are touched by his writings. Than they go and look after a anthroposophical Society. Somehow projecting,   or with a certain expectation   on what they are going to find. Once they get there, the reality is different. It is not better or worse, it’s just different from what they thought. And they have to adapt.
                  Now! Reality: there are more people reading Steiner, than people joining the Ass
                  I do know if you agree Dr., but I think that the first step in order to progress in the path is “Reverence”.
                  “And we rise rapidly when we fill our consciousness in such moments with thoughts evoking in us ADMIRATION, respect and VENERATION for the world and for life”... “Reverence awakens in the soul a sympathetic power through which we attract qualities in the beings around us, which would otherwise remain concealed”


              ******Exactly, and the opposite, criticism, blinds us to the qualities of other beings. This is what I see in our age of criticism, is that people join whatever local chapter of the Society they can find, and are immediately so critical of those they meet there that they walk away from it. I don't think they just say it's "different": I think they put it down as not equal to the anthroposophy in the books.
                   I pursued the Path for ten years before meeting other anthroposophists (there were none where I was until then), and I'll grant you it's a let-down, just as is hearing much of the gibberish on these online lists. So few seem to be even walking the Path, much less appearing to make any progress, I thought. But then I met an Initiate in the movement whom others did not even see was an Initiate, because I could see their criticism like a black eyepatch over both eyes, blinding them to what he was doing and being... and I started to realize that all the people I was meeting could be undergoing initiation in their own lives in ways that were not immediately apparent, and would never BE apparent if I did not see them with a more charitable eye. A person who appeared to be very ignorant of what I knew of the Path might be working with retarded children and undergoing Trials every day that were beyond my ability...
                 Dr. Steiner referred to this in his Letters to the Members, that we must always guard against feeling "These people are beneath me... I would be better off studying these things on my own." That is a Luciferic temptation on the Path.

              Starman
            • eurythmy
              Thanks for this very clear description of everyday experience Franky ... From: DRStarman2001@aol.com To: steiner@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 11 6:08 AM
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                Thanks for this very clear description of everyday experience
                Franky
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 12:36 AM
                Subject: Re: [steiner] Platonists and Aristotelians

                     I pursued the Path for ten years before meeting other anthroposophists (there were none where I was until then), and I'll grant you it's a let-down, just as is hearing much of the gibberish on these online lists. So few seem to be even walking the Path, much less appearing to make any progress, I thought. But then I met an Initiate in the movement whom others did not even see was an Initiate, because I could see their criticism like a black eyepatch over both eyes, blinding them to what he was doing and being... and I started to realize that all the people I was meeting could be undergoing initiation in their own lives in ways that were not immediately apparent, and would never BE apparent if I did not see them with a more charitable eye. A person who appeared to be very ignorant of what I knew of the Path might be working with retarded children and undergoing Trials every day that were beyond my ability...
                   Dr. Steiner referred to this in his Letters to the Members, that we must always guard against feeling "These people are beneath me... I would be better off studying these things on my own." That is a Luciferic temptation on the Path.

                Starman

              • greatpiscesmoon
                Admittedly, I am a novice to the writings of Dr. Steiner. This charitable eye you speak of, is perhaps the first lesson I recieved from who, at the time, I
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 23 12:10 PM
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                  Admittedly, I am a novice to the writings of Dr. Steiner.
                  This "charitable eye" you speak of, is perhaps the first lesson I
                  recieved from who, at the time, I knew not who they were. In essence,
                  one cannot alter anothers Path and to Judge the direction of them
                  would only bring darkness to my own "Light" and progression of my own
                  Path. Would this be a fair description to the statement, "That is a
                  luciferic temptation on the Path." ??

                  GreatPiscesMoon


                  --- In steiner@y..., "eurythmy" <eurythmy@t...> wrote:
                  > Thanks for this very clear description of everyday experience
                  > Franky
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: DRStarman2001@a...
                  > To: steiner@y...
                  > Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 12:36 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [steiner] Platonists and Aristotelians
                  >
                  >
                  > I pursued the Path for ten years before meeting other
                  anthroposophists (there were none where I was until then), and I'll
                  grant you it's a let-down, just as is hearing much of the gibberish
                  on these online lists. So few seem to be even walking the Path, much
                  less appearing to make any progress, I thought. But then I met an
                  Initiate in the movement whom others did not even see was an
                  Initiate, because I could see their criticism like a black eyepatch
                  over both eyes, blinding them to what he was doing and being... and I
                  started to realize that all the people I was meeting could be
                  undergoing initiation in their own lives in ways that were not
                  immediately apparent, and would never BE apparent if I did not see
                  them with a more charitable eye. A person who appeared to be very
                  ignorant of what I knew of the Path might be working with retarded
                  children and undergoing Trials every day that were beyond my
                  ability...
                  > Dr. Steiner referred to this in his Letters to the Members,
                  that we must always guard against feeling "These people are beneath
                  me... I would be better off studying these things on my own." That is
                  a Luciferic temptation on the Path.
                  >
                  > Starman
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