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  • Sena Fernando
    Jeff, I do take your point. Your comment highlights the problems we encounter when we use material images to represent a spiritual being. It may be that we
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 18, 2000
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      Jeff,
      I do take your point. Your comment highlights the problems we
      encounter when we use material images to represent a spiritual being.
      It may be that we need to use more than one image to illustrate the
      different aspects of a Being. Is not Christ himself sometimes
      represented by a fish?
      It seems to me that the image of the whale coming up from the
      depths of the sea is a useful one to remind us of the "monsters" in
      our unconscious mind. I am sure you are aware that Steiner turned to
      Christ when he encountered such horrifying entities in the spiritual
      world. It would not be surprising if Lucifer presented himself as a
      human of dazzling beauty in order to deceive people.
      Have you come across this essay by Robert S. Mason?
      http://www.elib.com/Steiner/RelArtic/Ahriman/ahriman.html#tableofconte
      nts
      Quoting from it, Chapter 7, "Good and Evil": "Michael casts
      the Dragon out of heaven; immediately afterwards arise the
      two 'beasts' - the first from the sea (Lucifer) and the second from
      the land (Ahriman)." This is the imagery ofthe Apocalypse.
      Regards,
      Sena
      --- In steiner@egroups.com, jla <pacbay@h...> wrote:
      > Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image
      > (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the
      great
      > whale to Lucifer. Though it is a deep ocean (Astral) creature,
      Lucifer
      > is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive
      beauty
      > tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to
      > "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense
      of
      > levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale
      choice.
      >
      >
      > Jeff
      >
      >
    • Danny F.
      ... But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying factor , Ahriman as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start to make problem with
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 20, 2000
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        --- jla <pacbay@...> wrote:
        > Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image
        > (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the
        > great
        > whale to Lucifer. Though it is a deep ocean (Astral) creature,
        > Lucifer
        > is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive
        > beauty
        > tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to
        > "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense
        > of
        > levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale
        > choice.


        But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying 'factor', Ahriman
        as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start
        to make problem with those representation, it's if we look at
        it from the light/darkness point of view, where Lucifer is
        "glorious" and full of glamour and light, it is hard to apply
        the image of the whale which live mostly in the depth of the oceans.
        The priciple of the 'dark' can also be hard to find in the figure
        of this dinosaur-like animal that represent Ahriman, though we can
        certainly associate the 'might' of Ahriman to it, Ahriman is far
        from being an active agent in a prehistoric fashion really.

        Plus I see the whale as a peaceful navigator of the ocean, Lucifer
        is more of a restless nature really, full of self-congratulating
        wisdom and prestige, fiery I'd say, megalomaniac indeed.

        Ahriman, the cold and 'might' mechanistic efficience that goes
        through everything with the only care of efficience and result,
        the might of death and 'iron', the power of mathematics and
        of the senses, the soulless, quite of a voiding effect on the
        social and the spiritual. When you add a bit a Luciferianism
        to that, you get the 'rictus' syndrome, clear manifestation
        of what the materialisticaly-ego oriented citizen do to his
        neighbours in the context of the "anonynous" social encounters
        of the daily.

        Kindest regards myself,
        Danny



        =====
        "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
        --Tractatus Aristotelis

        "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
        --William Blake

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      • Sena Fernando
        Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need to consider their significance for the
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 22, 2000
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          Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to
          understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need
          to consider their significance for the human race at the present
          time. Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
          the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
          are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
          to higher consciousness? When looked at in this way, one no
          longer reacts with fear and dismay to the disasters which Ahriman
          will bring to the world, but instead is able to see the potential for
          spritual renewal in the impending crisis.
          Best wishes,


          --- In steiner@egroups.com, "Danny F." <premabrahma@y...> wrote:

          > But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying 'factor', Ahriman
          > as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start
          > to make problem with those representation, it's if we look at
          > it from the light/darkness point of view, where Lucifer is
          > "glorious" and full of glamour and light, it is hard to apply
          > the image of the whale which live mostly in the depth of the
          oceans.
          > The priciple of the 'dark' can also be hard to find in the figure
          > of this dinosaur-like animal that represent Ahriman, though we can
          > certainly associate the 'might' of Ahriman to it, Ahriman is far
          > from being an active agent in a prehistoric fashion really.
          >
          > Plus I see the whale as a peaceful navigator of the ocean, Lucifer
          > is more of a restless nature really, full of self-congratulating
          > wisdom and prestige, fiery I'd say, megalomaniac indeed.
          >
          > Ahriman, the cold and 'might' mechanistic efficience that goes
          > through everything with the only care of efficience and result,
          > the might of death and 'iron', the power of mathematics and
          > of the senses, the soulless, quite of a voiding effect on the
          > social and the spiritual. When you add a bit a Luciferianism
          > to that, you get the 'rictus' syndrome, clear manifestation
          > of what the materialisticaly-ego oriented citizen do to his
          > neighbours in the context of the "anonynous" social encounters
          > of the daily.
          >
          > Kindest regards myself,
          > Danny
          >
          >
          >
          > =====
          > "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
          > --Tractatus Aristotelis
          >
          > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
          > --William Blake
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
          > http://im.yahoo.com/
        • Danny F.
          ... Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at ... I certainly agree with this view Sena. And I d go as far as to say that this is those powers(A
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 22, 2000
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            --- Sena Fernando <sena@...> wrote:
            > Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to
            > understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need
            > to consider their significance for the human race at the present
            > time. Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
            > the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
            > are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
            > to higher consciousness? When looked at in this way, one no
            > longer reacts with fear and dismay to the disasters which Ahriman
            > will bring to the world, but instead is able to see the potential for
            > spritual renewal in the impending crisis.
            > Best wishes,

            "Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
            > the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
            > are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
            > to higher consciousness?"


            I certainly agree with this view Sena. And I'd go as far as to say
            that this is those powers(A and L) basically that impede clairvoyance.
            The True, the Good and the Beautiful has such a sweeping power over
            them, that you get to get aligned to the narrow path that leads to
            the door of the objective reality. You get in the real, you get
            clairvoyance, that's my equation. And the more you objectively
            encounter evil, the more this encounter will be productive for you
            in terms of the sight in the spiritual world; I feel to compare it
            to a treatment of acupuncture at a higher level let us say, the stings

            of the evil received from the superior man(the spititual ego) awaken
            and activate him to the work in the supersensible, this is pressure,
            this is obstacles, this is pain, but that's how it is, sometimes it
            can only be bearable in Christ, those moments makes us recall His
            words, the Comforter speak to us. And has Paul says "I die a little
            more everyday", I can add, we resurrect a little everyday, and in
            that, is the powerlessness of Ahriman. I came to think that real
            incarnation is a continuous ongoing thing that to me equal with the
            term of transubstantiation. Thus I call the receiving of the flesh at
            birth a "carnation", then after through our work(spiritual we do put
            something 'in the flesh' (in-carnate) that was not there previously,
            and more then only tranforming what has been cast on us, this is
            the cosmos itself that gets furthered, as an extract of a "finished"
            world around us, through the spiritual ego the actual cosmos takes
            the right direction from the neverending Gospel of the Christ Impulse,
            Spirit-self, Life-Spirit, Spirit-man, in Christ we'll be,
            New Jerusalem, here we come, the tenth hierarchy, the
            anthroposophists.

            Kindest regards,
            Danny

            =====
            "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
            --Tractatus Aristotelis

            "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
            --William Blake

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
            http://im.yahoo.com/
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