Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Platonists and Aristotelians [was:Re: Unique Place of Christ]

Expand Messages
  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical Society, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 5, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Dr.Starman, earlier:
      > *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of
      his life, on  the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the
      Anthroposophical  Society, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
      streams:  one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.)
      due to a strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan
      wisdom schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a
      simple heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the
      early Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from
      one stream to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian
      teachings but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and
      what not, and  others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't
      relate to "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John
      Gardner,  who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards
      the end of  his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their
      simple  heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and
      wrote a little  book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and
      Anthroposophy."


      Thanks, Dr Starman!
      Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit into that?
      Do you have a view of how the Platonic "return" works out nowadays
      and the cooperation Steiner hoped for?
      I am ready for a looong answer, if it suits you.
      Greetings, Lutz

      *******A short one instead. Platonic means people who relate to pure ideas without having to see them demonstrated in matter. There are artists or ministers, never engineers. Engineers are pagans. They may have a "Christian" belief-system opn the side, but that's superficial: science IS pagan, period. Only people influenced by ancient pagan incarnations are cosmologists, astronomers etc. I'm sure you can identify the other "simple" child-like group who "believe on Jesus and the Bible" and think that enables them to know all the answers--- but couldn't figure out how their refrigerators worked if their lives depended on it.


           Guess I'm showing which group I'm in---as if, as a former Waldorf HS science
      teacher, astronomer and cosmologist, I could hide. I am one of the Arsitotelians Steiner saw coming. I can identify some of the others and also some of the Platonists. I still see very little of the cooperation going on that he said would be needed between these two groups.

      Dr. Starman

    • antrolutz
      Hi Dr Starman! Thanks for your reply. I enjoy your writings, short or long. Now I am willing to pay you your two cents for a consultation on my status . I am
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 6, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Dr Starman!

        Thanks for your reply. I enjoy your writings, short or long. Now I
        am willing to pay you your two cents for a consultation on
        my "status".

        I am born in Berlin on may 2nd 1946. A graphic designer by trade -
        even doing some painting. I feel more atracction to Christ as a
        cosmic being than to his Jesus appearing. I read some books on
        astronomi/astrosophy by Vreede and Powell to find out if I am
        interested in this topic. But I can't say that I feel a desire to
        penetrate it. At the most on starwisdom I re-drawed Steiner's
        planetary seals and colorized them. Of Steiner books I fancy his
        philosophical books the most.

        In your experience, does this give you a picture of what stream this
        fits to?

        Wondering, Lutz


        Dr Starman, earlier:
        > > *******A short one instead. Platonic means people who relate to
        pure ideas
        > > without having to see them demonstrated in matter. There are
        artists or
        > > ministers, never engineers. Engineers are pagans. They may have
        a
        > > "Christian" belief-system opn the side, but that's superficial:
        science IS
        > > pagan, period. Only people influenced by ancient pagan
        incarnations are
        > > cosmologists, astronomers etc. I'm sure you can identify the
        other "simple"
        > > child-like group who "believe on Jesus and the Bible" and think
        that
        > > enables them to know all the answers--- but couldn't figure out
        how their
        > > refrigerators worked if their lives depended on it.
        >
        > Guess I'm showing which group I'm in---as if, as a former
        Waldorf HS
        > science
        > > teacher, astronomer and cosmologist, I could hide. I am one of
        the
        > > Arsitotelians Steiner saw coming. I can identify some of the
        others and
        > > also some of the Platonists. I still see very little of the
        cooperation
        > > going on that he said would be needed between these two groups.
        > >
        > > Dr. Starman
      • Charlie Morrison
        ... From: DRStarman2001@aol.com To: steiner@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:44 AM Subject: [steiner] Platonists and Aristotelians [was:Re:
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 9, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:44 AM
          Subject: [steiner] Platonists and Aristotelians [was:Re: Unique Place of Christ]

          Dr.Starman, earlier:
          > *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of
          his life, on  the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the
          Anthroposophical  Society, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
          streams:  one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.)
          due to a strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan
          wisdom schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a
          simple heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the
          early Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from
          one stream to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian
          teachings but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and
          what not, and  others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't
          relate to "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John
          Gardner,  who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards
          the end of  his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their
          simple  heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and
          wrote a little  book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and
          Anthroposophy."

          Charlie:

          For anyone who is not aware of it, there is talk of these groups in the book "Esoteric Studies" by Ita Wegman:-

          P58 - "In explaining the karma of the Anthroposophical Society, Dr Steiner has spoken about two groups of people to be found in it.

          "Whoever can observe human beings will be well able to distinguish and assess the kind of personality that belongs to each of these two groups.

          "One group of souls consists of those who, as active anthroposophists with strong will impulses, are endeavouring to take into themselves all that Anthroposophy can give. Principally it is the teaching of cosmology in Anthroposophy to which they feel themselves attracted. They possess great understanding for the Cosmic Christ, but in finding the way to Anthroposophy they have sought not so much the Christ as a world-embracing view of life. And within the Anthroposophical Movement these souls are endeavouring to spread these teachings further among men. These are souls who have gone through their most important and significant incarnation in the pre-Christian era. They were steeped in heathenism, were closely connected with the wisdom of the mysteries, and many of them could look into the spiritual world. They were souls who had not had many earth incarnations but had undergone their development chiefly on the planets rather than on the Earth, and only gradually after the Atlantean period did they incarnate again on the Earth. Therefore they still had a certain freshness, rather than earthly weariness, and also still had possibilities to look into the spiritual world.

          "These souls, who had their decisive incarnations in the pre-Christian era, did not go through the first centuries of Christianity; during the Mystery of Golgotha and in the time immediately following they found themselves in the spiritual world. They underwent their next important incarnation only after the seventh and eighth centuries, and there they embraced Christianity. But besides Christology they still also kept their heathen knowledge, which still worked powerfully on in them, and which they found more or less mixed with Christianity, for Christianity had not yet worked itself completely free from paganism. They pondered much over Christianity, and were connected with it more through their intellect than their feelings. In these souls there lived the Aristotelian impulse and there also lived strongly the Michael Impulses of the then period of Michael's rulership.

          "Another group of men may be found within the Anthroposophical Society. It consists of those souls of a more contemplative nature who in their present incarnation have a great leaning towards Anthroposophy but who do not feel the need to be active within the Anthroposophical Movement.

          "They have a great yearning to find the Christ and are greatly satisfied if Anthroposophy can lead them to the Christ-Being, for whom in the depths of their soul life there lives a warm, longing feeling. For the cosmic teachings of Anthroposophy they have no special inclination and are more or less indifferent towards them. In the existing theological knowledge they find nothing to satisfy the desire for the Christ that they carry in their subconsciousness. They feel themselves drawn to Anthroposophy directly they hear of its teachings.

          "These souls have gone through many earthly incarnations as far back as the Atlantean epoch. In their pre-Christian incarnations they had, in the then existing Sun Oracle, reverenced the Christ-Being as found in the Sun, with an instinctive clairvoyant consciousness, which they afterwards gradually lost. And when these souls again returned to Earth at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha and in the early Christian centuries, they possessed no more a clairvoyant knowledge of the Sun-Being but only a more or less living tradition. Gradually this tradition, too, became more and more lost, and of the Mystery of Golgotha many just had only the conception that a God from somewhere had joined himself to a human body and as Jesus of Nazareth had walked the Earth. No longer conscious that this God was a Sun God, they began to argue about the matter in Church Councils and finally accepted what was dictated from Rome. But some of these souls, who still retained as living memory the tradition that the Christ was a Sun-Being, could not be influenced by these Councils, and because they persisted in their belief they were called heretics, as also were many souls who belong to the first group and bear within themselves the knowledge of the Sun-Christ. The souls just described had their decisive incarnations in the first century of our era, during or soon after the Mystery of Golgotha. And in their incarnations of the pre-Christian period they had taken into themselves much Platonism.

          "Now before these two groups of souls incarnated again at the present time, they both together received those mighty Imaginations that at the beginning of the nineteenth century were given by Michael in the supersensible world. The group of souls who underwent their decisive incarnations in the pre-Christian era knew that Christ had come down from the Sun to the Earth, for during the time of the Mystery of Golgotha they themselves had witnessed in the supersensible worlds the departure of the Christ-Being from the Sun and had understood this event through their mystery-knowledge. This group, when they received the mighty Imaginations presented to them by Michael-Imaginations that revealed in pictures the whole cosmology and the secrets of the Christ-Being-received the strongest impulses to become really true Christians when they came again to the Earth, such Christians as would have a strong will to carry down all that was there in those mighty pictures and to transform it for the Earth so that mankind could understand.

          "The other group of souls, who had their decisive incarnation in the first centuries after Christ, and who still experienced the Mystery of Golgotha or were still strongly impressed by it, did not recognize Christ as the Sun God any more. These souls fell into complete uncertainty when later, in the time between death and a new birth, they did not find Christ in the Sun. They did not receive the supersensible Imaginations in so wide-awake a state of soul as the first group, so that when they came to the Earth, though they had indeed, through a subconscious memory of what had been experienced in the supersensible worlds, the longing and the impulse to find Christ on the Earth, yet they were not stirred to the point of activity. They have a strong leaning towards Anthroposophy without the wish to be active in it.

          "It is important, says Dr Steiner, to find out to which of these groups one belongs, to examine oneself so that as an anthroposophist one gains a feeling of belonging to one or other of these groups.

          "Why is this so important? Since the Anthroposophical Movement has a mission to fulfil that consists in bringing the treasure of wisdom to mankind, it is necessary that the persons who are actively working in it should have this knowledge about themselves. The way in which each will work will be different according to the group to which he belongs. Those men who had their decisive incarnation in pre-Christian times will make the best progress and will find their way back into the spiritual world, if they chiefly concern themselves with a deepening of cosmological relationships. Their meditational work goes in this direction. Those who experienced their decisive incarnations in the first centuries after Christ develop their finest powers by entering deeply into Christianity as illuminated by Anthroposophy, and by carrying the new Christianity into the future.

          "The recognition of both these types of men is of great importance too in the new art of healing. In dealing with illness, the doctor will try to heal the type of persons first described by way of the head system and metabolic system; in the second group, on the contrary, the healing forces must be stimulated through the rhythmic system. Of course, there are those who come between these two groups, and the doctor especially has plenty of opportunity to observe them. For working oneself deeply into the an of healing means also an intensive effort to come to know the human being, and this again is closely connected to people's karma.

          P62 Leading Thoughts

          "In the Anthroposophical Society two principal groups of souls may be found, and it is necessary for the future and mission of the Anthroposophical Movement that each individual should recognize to which of these groups he belongs.

          "One of these groups had its decisive incarnations in pre-Christian times. To it belong those souls who found their way to Anthroposophy through their urge to acquire a knowledge of cosmological connections. They have in them the impulse to activity.

          "The other group had their decisive incarnations at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha and in the first Christian centuries. The souls belonging to it seek for a deepened Christianity within the Anthroposophical Movement. They are the more contemplative natures who bring their warmth of heart towards the Christ.

          "Between these groups there are also souls who have affinity with one or other of these types, but are not so firmly rooted as them in the Anthroposophical Movement."

           

          Charlie: Thinking about my own position in one of the two groups, I would like to believe that I belong to one or the other. But I have the feeling that I am in the third stream with a leaning towards the Platonists. I first read Steiner after borrowing "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds" from my local library (early '70's). I felt immediately that I was reading very important, truthful words. But since then, although I've read Anthroposophical books constantly, I've had very little contact with others who are interested in Anthroposophy. I've never joined the AS for instance. I've always believed in the reality of Christ, but I was never convinced of the way He is portrayed in the Churches that I have experienced. Reincarnation as a fact has made sense to me from as long as I can remember.So I suppose that puts me at odds with the vast majority of Christian denominations straight away. 

          Does anyone else have any opinions on these groups?

          warm regards,

          Charlie.

          PS  I'm glad you enjoyed the broadcast on Bio-dynamics, Ken; and thank you for the extra info about it, agka.

        • Francisco Barbosa
          You know Charlie...? It is funny the number of people the are like us. I read millions of times the books of Steiner but I never join any AS. I think there are
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 9, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            You know Charlie...? It is funny the number of people
            the are like us.
            I read millions of times the books of Steiner but I
            never join any AS.
            I think there are two differente things:
            1. Steiner and his books; 2. The antroposophists.

            Maybe one day, people like you and me - I feel p.much
            like you - will join together.

            God bless you

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
            http://www.hotjobs.com
          • Francisco Barbosa
            Is steiner voice recorded? Are there any tapes available? God bless you all __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 9, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Is steiner voice recorded? Are there any tapes
              available?

              God bless you all

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
              http://www.hotjobs.com
            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              In a message dated 8/9/2002 6:40:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Not as far as I know.
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 9, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 8/9/2002 6:40:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alvesbarbosa@... writes:


                Is steiner voice recorded? Are there any tapes
                available?


                Not as far as I know.
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.