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Re: [steiner] Re: New file uploaded to steiner

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  • jla
    Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the great whale to Lucifer.
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 18, 2000
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      Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the great whale to Lucifer. Though it is a  deep ocean (Astral) creature, Lucifer is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive beauty tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense of levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale choice.
       

      Jeff

      Sena Fernando wrote:

      Thanks for your question, Jeff. The image  is something I have
      devised, based on Trevor Ravenscoft's ideas. More details on my web
      page, http://server2038.virtualave.net/bad666/leviathan.html
      I would welcome your comments on this.
             Sena

      --- In steiner@egroups.com, jla <pacbay@h...> wrote:
      > What is the origin of these images and are the designations
      accurate?
      > Lucifer as a great whale????
      >
      > Jeff
      >
      > steiner@egroups.com wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Hello,
      > >
      > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
      > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the steiner
      > > group.
      > >
      > >   File        : /behemoth-and-leviathan.gif
      > >   Uploaded by : sena@c...
      > >   Description : Read the Book of Job, Chapters 40 and 41
      > >
      > > You can access this file at the URL
      > >
      > > http://www.egroups.com/files/steiner/behemoth-and-leviathan%2Egif
      > >
      > > To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
      > >
      > > http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
      > >
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > > sena@c...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >                       eGroups Sponsor
      >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      > >
      > >
       


      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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    • Sena Fernando
      Jeff, I do take your point. Your comment highlights the problems we encounter when we use material images to represent a spiritual being. It may be that we
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 18, 2000
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        Jeff,
        I do take your point. Your comment highlights the problems we
        encounter when we use material images to represent a spiritual being.
        It may be that we need to use more than one image to illustrate the
        different aspects of a Being. Is not Christ himself sometimes
        represented by a fish?
        It seems to me that the image of the whale coming up from the
        depths of the sea is a useful one to remind us of the "monsters" in
        our unconscious mind. I am sure you are aware that Steiner turned to
        Christ when he encountered such horrifying entities in the spiritual
        world. It would not be surprising if Lucifer presented himself as a
        human of dazzling beauty in order to deceive people.
        Have you come across this essay by Robert S. Mason?
        http://www.elib.com/Steiner/RelArtic/Ahriman/ahriman.html#tableofconte
        nts
        Quoting from it, Chapter 7, "Good and Evil": "Michael casts
        the Dragon out of heaven; immediately afterwards arise the
        two 'beasts' - the first from the sea (Lucifer) and the second from
        the land (Ahriman)." This is the imagery ofthe Apocalypse.
        Regards,
        Sena
        --- In steiner@egroups.com, jla <pacbay@h...> wrote:
        > Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image
        > (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the
        great
        > whale to Lucifer. Though it is a deep ocean (Astral) creature,
        Lucifer
        > is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive
        beauty
        > tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to
        > "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense
        of
        > levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale
        choice.
        >
        >
        > Jeff
        >
        >
      • Danny F.
        ... But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying factor , Ahriman as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start to make problem with
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 20, 2000
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          --- jla <pacbay@...> wrote:
          > Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image
          > (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the
          > great
          > whale to Lucifer. Though it is a deep ocean (Astral) creature,
          > Lucifer
          > is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive
          > beauty
          > tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to
          > "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense
          > of
          > levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale
          > choice.


          But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying 'factor', Ahriman
          as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start
          to make problem with those representation, it's if we look at
          it from the light/darkness point of view, where Lucifer is
          "glorious" and full of glamour and light, it is hard to apply
          the image of the whale which live mostly in the depth of the oceans.
          The priciple of the 'dark' can also be hard to find in the figure
          of this dinosaur-like animal that represent Ahriman, though we can
          certainly associate the 'might' of Ahriman to it, Ahriman is far
          from being an active agent in a prehistoric fashion really.

          Plus I see the whale as a peaceful navigator of the ocean, Lucifer
          is more of a restless nature really, full of self-congratulating
          wisdom and prestige, fiery I'd say, megalomaniac indeed.

          Ahriman, the cold and 'might' mechanistic efficience that goes
          through everything with the only care of efficience and result,
          the might of death and 'iron', the power of mathematics and
          of the senses, the soulless, quite of a voiding effect on the
          social and the spiritual. When you add a bit a Luciferianism
          to that, you get the 'rictus' syndrome, clear manifestation
          of what the materialisticaly-ego oriented citizen do to his
          neighbours in the context of the "anonynous" social encounters
          of the daily.

          Kindest regards myself,
          Danny



          =====
          "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
          --Tractatus Aristotelis

          "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
          --William Blake

          __________________________________________________
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        • Sena Fernando
          Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need to consider their significance for the
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 22, 2000
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            Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to
            understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need
            to consider their significance for the human race at the present
            time. Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
            the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
            are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
            to higher consciousness? When looked at in this way, one no
            longer reacts with fear and dismay to the disasters which Ahriman
            will bring to the world, but instead is able to see the potential for
            spritual renewal in the impending crisis.
            Best wishes,


            --- In steiner@egroups.com, "Danny F." <premabrahma@y...> wrote:

            > But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying 'factor', Ahriman
            > as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start
            > to make problem with those representation, it's if we look at
            > it from the light/darkness point of view, where Lucifer is
            > "glorious" and full of glamour and light, it is hard to apply
            > the image of the whale which live mostly in the depth of the
            oceans.
            > The priciple of the 'dark' can also be hard to find in the figure
            > of this dinosaur-like animal that represent Ahriman, though we can
            > certainly associate the 'might' of Ahriman to it, Ahriman is far
            > from being an active agent in a prehistoric fashion really.
            >
            > Plus I see the whale as a peaceful navigator of the ocean, Lucifer
            > is more of a restless nature really, full of self-congratulating
            > wisdom and prestige, fiery I'd say, megalomaniac indeed.
            >
            > Ahriman, the cold and 'might' mechanistic efficience that goes
            > through everything with the only care of efficience and result,
            > the might of death and 'iron', the power of mathematics and
            > of the senses, the soulless, quite of a voiding effect on the
            > social and the spiritual. When you add a bit a Luciferianism
            > to that, you get the 'rictus' syndrome, clear manifestation
            > of what the materialisticaly-ego oriented citizen do to his
            > neighbours in the context of the "anonynous" social encounters
            > of the daily.
            >
            > Kindest regards myself,
            > Danny
            >
            >
            >
            > =====
            > "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
            > --Tractatus Aristotelis
            >
            > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
            > --William Blake
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
            > http://im.yahoo.com/
          • Danny F.
            ... Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at ... I certainly agree with this view Sena. And I d go as far as to say that this is those powers(A
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 22, 2000
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              --- Sena Fernando <sena@...> wrote:
              > Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to
              > understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need
              > to consider their significance for the human race at the present
              > time. Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
              > the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
              > are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
              > to higher consciousness? When looked at in this way, one no
              > longer reacts with fear and dismay to the disasters which Ahriman
              > will bring to the world, but instead is able to see the potential for
              > spritual renewal in the impending crisis.
              > Best wishes,

              "Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
              > the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
              > are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
              > to higher consciousness?"


              I certainly agree with this view Sena. And I'd go as far as to say
              that this is those powers(A and L) basically that impede clairvoyance.
              The True, the Good and the Beautiful has such a sweeping power over
              them, that you get to get aligned to the narrow path that leads to
              the door of the objective reality. You get in the real, you get
              clairvoyance, that's my equation. And the more you objectively
              encounter evil, the more this encounter will be productive for you
              in terms of the sight in the spiritual world; I feel to compare it
              to a treatment of acupuncture at a higher level let us say, the stings

              of the evil received from the superior man(the spititual ego) awaken
              and activate him to the work in the supersensible, this is pressure,
              this is obstacles, this is pain, but that's how it is, sometimes it
              can only be bearable in Christ, those moments makes us recall His
              words, the Comforter speak to us. And has Paul says "I die a little
              more everyday", I can add, we resurrect a little everyday, and in
              that, is the powerlessness of Ahriman. I came to think that real
              incarnation is a continuous ongoing thing that to me equal with the
              term of transubstantiation. Thus I call the receiving of the flesh at
              birth a "carnation", then after through our work(spiritual we do put
              something 'in the flesh' (in-carnate) that was not there previously,
              and more then only tranforming what has been cast on us, this is
              the cosmos itself that gets furthered, as an extract of a "finished"
              world around us, through the spiritual ego the actual cosmos takes
              the right direction from the neverending Gospel of the Christ Impulse,
              Spirit-self, Life-Spirit, Spirit-man, in Christ we'll be,
              New Jerusalem, here we come, the tenth hierarchy, the
              anthroposophists.

              Kindest regards,
              Danny

              =====
              "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
              --Tractatus Aristotelis

              "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
              --William Blake

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
              http://im.yahoo.com/
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