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Re: [steiner] New file uploaded to steiner

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  • jla
    What is the origin of these images and are the designations accurate? Lucifer as a great whale???? Jeff
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 18, 2000
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      What is the origin of these images and are the designations accurate? Lucifer as a great whale????

      Jeff

      steiner@egroups.com wrote:

       
      Hello,

      This email message is a notification to let you know that
      a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the steiner
      group.

        File        : /behemoth-and-leviathan.gif
        Uploaded by : sena@...
        Description : Read the Book of Job, Chapters 40 and 41

      You can access this file at the URL

      http://www.egroups.com/files/steiner/behemoth-and-leviathan%2Egif

      To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

      http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
       

      Regards,

      sena@...
       
       
       
       


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    • Sena Fernando
      Thanks for your question, Jeff. The image is something I have devised, based on Trevor Ravenscoft s ideas. More details on my web page,
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 18, 2000
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        Thanks for your question, Jeff. The image is something I have
        devised, based on Trevor Ravenscoft's ideas. More details on my web
        page, http://server2038.virtualave.net/bad666/leviathan.html
        I would welcome your comments on this.
        Sena

        --- In steiner@egroups.com, jla <pacbay@h...> wrote:
        > What is the origin of these images and are the designations
        accurate?
        > Lucifer as a great whale????
        >
        > Jeff
        >
        > steiner@egroups.com wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Hello,
        > >
        > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
        > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the steiner
        > > group.
        > >
        > > File : /behemoth-and-leviathan.gif
        > > Uploaded by : sena@c...
        > > Description : Read the Book of Job, Chapters 40 and 41
        > >
        > > You can access this file at the URL
        > >
        > > http://www.egroups.com/files/steiner/behemoth-and-leviathan%2Egif
        > >
        > > To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
        > >
        > > http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
        > >
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > sena@c...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > eGroups Sponsor
        >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        > >
        > >
      • jla
        Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the great whale to Lucifer.
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 18, 2000
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          Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the great whale to Lucifer. Though it is a  deep ocean (Astral) creature, Lucifer is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive beauty tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense of levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale choice.
           

          Jeff

          Sena Fernando wrote:

          Thanks for your question, Jeff. The image  is something I have
          devised, based on Trevor Ravenscoft's ideas. More details on my web
          page, http://server2038.virtualave.net/bad666/leviathan.html
          I would welcome your comments on this.
                 Sena

          --- In steiner@egroups.com, jla <pacbay@h...> wrote:
          > What is the origin of these images and are the designations
          accurate?
          > Lucifer as a great whale????
          >
          > Jeff
          >
          > steiner@egroups.com wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > Hello,
          > >
          > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
          > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the steiner
          > > group.
          > >
          > >   File        : /behemoth-and-leviathan.gif
          > >   Uploaded by : sena@c...
          > >   Description : Read the Book of Job, Chapters 40 and 41
          > >
          > > You can access this file at the URL
          > >
          > > http://www.egroups.com/files/steiner/behemoth-and-leviathan%2Egif
          > >
          > > To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
          > >
          > > http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
          > >
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > sena@c...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >                       eGroups Sponsor
          >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          > >
          > >
           


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        • Sena Fernando
          Jeff, I do take your point. Your comment highlights the problems we encounter when we use material images to represent a spiritual being. It may be that we
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 18, 2000
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            Jeff,
            I do take your point. Your comment highlights the problems we
            encounter when we use material images to represent a spiritual being.
            It may be that we need to use more than one image to illustrate the
            different aspects of a Being. Is not Christ himself sometimes
            represented by a fish?
            It seems to me that the image of the whale coming up from the
            depths of the sea is a useful one to remind us of the "monsters" in
            our unconscious mind. I am sure you are aware that Steiner turned to
            Christ when he encountered such horrifying entities in the spiritual
            world. It would not be surprising if Lucifer presented himself as a
            human of dazzling beauty in order to deceive people.
            Have you come across this essay by Robert S. Mason?
            http://www.elib.com/Steiner/RelArtic/Ahriman/ahriman.html#tableofconte
            nts
            Quoting from it, Chapter 7, "Good and Evil": "Michael casts
            the Dragon out of heaven; immediately afterwards arise the
            two 'beasts' - the first from the sea (Lucifer) and the second from
            the land (Ahriman)." This is the imagery ofthe Apocalypse.
            Regards,
            Sena
            --- In steiner@egroups.com, jla <pacbay@h...> wrote:
            > Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image
            > (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the
            great
            > whale to Lucifer. Though it is a deep ocean (Astral) creature,
            Lucifer
            > is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive
            beauty
            > tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to
            > "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense
            of
            > levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale
            choice.
            >
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            >
          • Danny F.
            ... But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying factor , Ahriman as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start to make problem with
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 20, 2000
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              --- jla <pacbay@...> wrote:
              > Though I can intuitively sense the really of the Ahrimanic image
              > (behemoth) and the lamb as Christ, I find it hard to attribute the
              > great
              > whale to Lucifer. Though it is a deep ocean (Astral) creature,
              > Lucifer
              > is usually depicted as glorified human of dazzling and deceptive
              > beauty
              > tempting us to extend up and escape from the earth and return to
              > "perfection" even though we are not even near that goal. This sense
              > of
              > levity and supernatural spirituality runs counter to the whale
              > choice.


              But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying 'factor', Ahriman
              as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start
              to make problem with those representation, it's if we look at
              it from the light/darkness point of view, where Lucifer is
              "glorious" and full of glamour and light, it is hard to apply
              the image of the whale which live mostly in the depth of the oceans.
              The priciple of the 'dark' can also be hard to find in the figure
              of this dinosaur-like animal that represent Ahriman, though we can
              certainly associate the 'might' of Ahriman to it, Ahriman is far
              from being an active agent in a prehistoric fashion really.

              Plus I see the whale as a peaceful navigator of the ocean, Lucifer
              is more of a restless nature really, full of self-congratulating
              wisdom and prestige, fiery I'd say, megalomaniac indeed.

              Ahriman, the cold and 'might' mechanistic efficience that goes
              through everything with the only care of efficience and result,
              the might of death and 'iron', the power of mathematics and
              of the senses, the soulless, quite of a voiding effect on the
              social and the spiritual. When you add a bit a Luciferianism
              to that, you get the 'rictus' syndrome, clear manifestation
              of what the materialisticaly-ego oriented citizen do to his
              neighbours in the context of the "anonynous" social encounters
              of the daily.

              Kindest regards myself,
              Danny



              =====
              "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
              --Tractatus Aristotelis

              "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
              --William Blake

              __________________________________________________
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            • Sena Fernando
              Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need to consider their significance for the
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 22, 2000
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                Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to
                understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need
                to consider their significance for the human race at the present
                time. Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
                the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
                are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
                to higher consciousness? When looked at in this way, one no
                longer reacts with fear and dismay to the disasters which Ahriman
                will bring to the world, but instead is able to see the potential for
                spritual renewal in the impending crisis.
                Best wishes,


                --- In steiner@egroups.com, "Danny F." <premabrahma@y...> wrote:

                > But yet, I myself see Lucifer as the magnifying 'factor', Ahriman
                > as the shrinking one and dry indeed. Where the likeness can start
                > to make problem with those representation, it's if we look at
                > it from the light/darkness point of view, where Lucifer is
                > "glorious" and full of glamour and light, it is hard to apply
                > the image of the whale which live mostly in the depth of the
                oceans.
                > The priciple of the 'dark' can also be hard to find in the figure
                > of this dinosaur-like animal that represent Ahriman, though we can
                > certainly associate the 'might' of Ahriman to it, Ahriman is far
                > from being an active agent in a prehistoric fashion really.
                >
                > Plus I see the whale as a peaceful navigator of the ocean, Lucifer
                > is more of a restless nature really, full of self-congratulating
                > wisdom and prestige, fiery I'd say, megalomaniac indeed.
                >
                > Ahriman, the cold and 'might' mechanistic efficience that goes
                > through everything with the only care of efficience and result,
                > the might of death and 'iron', the power of mathematics and
                > of the senses, the soulless, quite of a voiding effect on the
                > social and the spiritual. When you add a bit a Luciferianism
                > to that, you get the 'rictus' syndrome, clear manifestation
                > of what the materialisticaly-ego oriented citizen do to his
                > neighbours in the context of the "anonynous" social encounters
                > of the daily.
                >
                > Kindest regards myself,
                > Danny
                >
                >
                >
                > =====
                > "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
                > --Tractatus Aristotelis
                >
                > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
                > --William Blake
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
                > http://im.yahoo.com/
              • Danny F.
                ... Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at ... I certainly agree with this view Sena. And I d go as far as to say that this is those powers(A
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 22, 2000
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                  --- Sena Fernando <sena@...> wrote:
                  > Thanks for you message, Danny. I feel that, having tried to
                  > understand the nature of Lucifer and Ahriman, we also need
                  > to consider their significance for the human race at the present
                  > time. Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
                  > the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
                  > are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
                  > to higher consciousness? When looked at in this way, one no
                  > longer reacts with fear and dismay to the disasters which Ahriman
                  > will bring to the world, but instead is able to see the potential for
                  > spritual renewal in the impending crisis.
                  > Best wishes,

                  "Do you agree with the view that humanity now stands at
                  > the threshold of the spritual world and that Lucifer and Ahriman
                  > are the demonic powers lurking on either side of this gateway
                  > to higher consciousness?"


                  I certainly agree with this view Sena. And I'd go as far as to say
                  that this is those powers(A and L) basically that impede clairvoyance.
                  The True, the Good and the Beautiful has such a sweeping power over
                  them, that you get to get aligned to the narrow path that leads to
                  the door of the objective reality. You get in the real, you get
                  clairvoyance, that's my equation. And the more you objectively
                  encounter evil, the more this encounter will be productive for you
                  in terms of the sight in the spiritual world; I feel to compare it
                  to a treatment of acupuncture at a higher level let us say, the stings

                  of the evil received from the superior man(the spititual ego) awaken
                  and activate him to the work in the supersensible, this is pressure,
                  this is obstacles, this is pain, but that's how it is, sometimes it
                  can only be bearable in Christ, those moments makes us recall His
                  words, the Comforter speak to us. And has Paul says "I die a little
                  more everyday", I can add, we resurrect a little everyday, and in
                  that, is the powerlessness of Ahriman. I came to think that real
                  incarnation is a continuous ongoing thing that to me equal with the
                  term of transubstantiation. Thus I call the receiving of the flesh at
                  birth a "carnation", then after through our work(spiritual we do put
                  something 'in the flesh' (in-carnate) that was not there previously,
                  and more then only tranforming what has been cast on us, this is
                  the cosmos itself that gets furthered, as an extract of a "finished"
                  world around us, through the spiritual ego the actual cosmos takes
                  the right direction from the neverending Gospel of the Christ Impulse,
                  Spirit-self, Life-Spirit, Spirit-man, in Christ we'll be,
                  New Jerusalem, here we come, the tenth hierarchy, the
                  anthroposophists.

                  Kindest regards,
                  Danny

                  =====
                  "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
                  --Tractatus Aristotelis

                  "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
                  --William Blake

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
                  http://im.yahoo.com/
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