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Re: [steiner] Re: Unique Place of Christ

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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      info@... writes:
      Interesting, Dr Starman!
      Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
      one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
      more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
      aspect?
      Lutz


      *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three streams: one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.) due to a strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan wisdom schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a simple heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the early Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from one stream to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian teachings but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and what not, and others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't relate to "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John Gardner, who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards the end of his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their simple heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and wrote a little book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and Anthroposophy."

      Dr. Starman


      --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

      > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
      has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
      of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
      come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
      not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
      recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
      only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
      do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
      reached a particular level or not.
      >
      >     For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
      with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
      confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
      said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
      there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
      anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
      >
      >    Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
      entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
      through Initiation was the same described by Western English
      Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
      >
      >    Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
      does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
      recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
      entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
      one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
      people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
      perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
      have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
      be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
      become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
      impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
      so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
      rescue Christianity from the same doom.
      >
      > Dr. Starman


    • jla
      Durwood, Might there be something else that may also blind some to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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        Durwood,
         
        Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo, Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower realms as well????
         
         
        Jeff
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
        Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ

        evlogite@... writes:
        > Hi Everyone:
        > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe?  I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly).  Does anyone here have an insight into this?  I would appreciate any help that you can give.

        *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

            For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

           Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

           Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

        Dr. Starman

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      • evlogite
        Hi Jeff: Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us? Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along one aspect of the spiritual
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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          Hi Jeff:
          Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us?
          Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along
          one aspect of the spiritual path (devotional path, for example) and
          have a major blindspot regarding something that falls outside the
          scope of one's training (tolerance for non-believers, for example).
          I wonder what PARTICULAR aspect causes the individual to "miss the
          boat" or reject the Christ Event. Is it merely the sometimes bad
          track record of historical Christianity? Help me out here.

          evlogite

          PS I remember a killer quote by RS regarding the knowledge of the
          Trinity; does anyone know exactly how it goes?

          (Ignorance of the Father is a ... , of the Son an illness and of the
          Holy Spirit a tragedy.--) If anyone knows how this goes, my thanks in
          advance.


          --- In steiner@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
          > Durwood,
          >
          > Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the
          nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the
          spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from
          seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo,
          Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted
          transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat
          across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the
          Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower
          realms as well????
          >
          >
          > Jeff
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: DRStarman2001@a...
          > To: steiner@y...
          > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
          > Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ
          >
          >
          > evlogite@y... writes:
          > > Hi Everyone:
          > > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the
          role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand
          the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
          regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
          which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
          writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
          would appreciate any help that you can give.
          >
          > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a
          person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the
          point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability
          to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
          not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
          recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only
          reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so,
          a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a
          particular level or not.
          >
          > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
          with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
          confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said
          quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was
          merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who
          reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
          >
          > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
          entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
          through Initiation was the same described by Western English
          Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
          >
          > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
          does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
          recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
          entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
          one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
          people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
          perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
          have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
          be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
          become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
          impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so
          that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
          rescue Christianity from the same doom.
          >
          > Dr. Starman
          >
          > Post to steiner@e...
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > steiner-unsubscribe@e...
          >
          > Search the archives of the group at:
          > http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
          >
          > Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
          > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
        • jla
          Evlogite, Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly: It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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            Evlogite,
             
            Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly:
             
            It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us but externalizes itself in the Astral realms as images, environments, and inclinations. We gravitate to certain regions and in contact with certain beings in the spiritual worlds based on bias or affiliation. If one is a Buddhist then one will gravitate and support Buddhist astral and devachanic imagery and beings; if one is a Jew or Hindu the same holds true;, and so on. Until one rids oneself of all presuppositions and can eliminate bias, one will see only what is within oneself as externalized and supported as a group astral environment. Eventually we are led to other cultures and religions but fundamental bias can carry over from life to life.
             
            If one thinks the Christ is just another adept or just a wise rabbi, then that is what will appear as "knowledge" to one in most cases. Often the shock of death or a traumatic spiritual experience will propel one out of bias and one will see things as they are.  There are other esoteric explanations involving actual deceptive practices but we will pass on that for now.
             
             Until one enters the spiritual worlds completely open, morally strong and with a predominance of objectivity, certain beings and events will be hidden or seen with limitations, it seems, and this would include the Christ.
             
             
             
            Jeff
            -----
          • antrolutz
            Thanks, Dr Starman! Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit into that? Do you have a view of how the Platonic return works out
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 19, 2002
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              Thanks, Dr Starman!

              Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit
              into that?

              Do you have a view of how the Platonic "return" works out nowadays
              and the cooperation Steiner hoped for?

              I am ready for a looong answer, if it suits you.

              Greetings, Lutz


              Dr.Starman, earlier:
              > *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of
              his life, on
              > the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the
              Anthroposophical
              > Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
              streams:
              > one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.)
              due to a
              > strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan
              wisdom
              > schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a
              simple
              > heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the
              early
              > Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from
              one stream
              > to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian
              teachings
              > but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and
              what not, and
              > others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't
              relate to
              > "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John
              Gardner,
              > who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards
              the end of
              > his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their
              simple
              > heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and
              wrote a little
              > book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and
              Anthroposophy."
              >
              > Dr. Starman
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