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Re: Unique Place of Christ

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  • antrolutz
    Interesting, Dr Starman! Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams, one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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      Interesting, Dr Starman!

      Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
      one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
      more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
      aspect?

      Lutz

      --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

      > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
      has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
      of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
      come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
      not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
      recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
      only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
      do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
      reached a particular level or not.
      >
      > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
      with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
      confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
      said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
      there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
      anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
      >
      > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
      entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
      through Initiation was the same described by Western English
      Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
      >
      > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
      does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
      recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
      entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
      one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
      people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
      perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
      have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
      be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
      become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
      impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
      so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
      rescue Christianity from the same doom.
      >
      > Dr. Starman
    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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        info@... writes:
        Interesting, Dr Starman!
        Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
        one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
        more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
        aspect?
        Lutz


        *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three streams: one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.) due to a strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan wisdom schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a simple heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the early Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from one stream to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian teachings but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and what not, and others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't relate to "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John Gardner, who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards the end of his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their simple heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and wrote a little book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and Anthroposophy."

        Dr. Starman


        --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

        > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
        has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
        of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
        come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
        not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
        recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
        only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
        do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
        reached a particular level or not.
        >
        >     For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
        with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
        confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
        said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
        there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
        anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
        >
        >    Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
        entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
        through Initiation was the same described by Western English
        Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
        >
        >    Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
        does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
        recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
        entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
        one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
        people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
        perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
        have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
        be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
        become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
        impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
        so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
        rescue Christianity from the same doom.
        >
        > Dr. Starman


      • jla
        Durwood, Might there be something else that may also blind some to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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          Durwood,
           
          Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo, Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower realms as well????
           
           
          Jeff
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
          Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ

          evlogite@... writes:
          > Hi Everyone:
          > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe?  I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly).  Does anyone here have an insight into this?  I would appreciate any help that you can give.

          *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

              For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

             Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

             Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

          Dr. Starman

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        • evlogite
          Hi Jeff: Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us? Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along one aspect of the spiritual
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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            Hi Jeff:
            Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us?
            Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along
            one aspect of the spiritual path (devotional path, for example) and
            have a major blindspot regarding something that falls outside the
            scope of one's training (tolerance for non-believers, for example).
            I wonder what PARTICULAR aspect causes the individual to "miss the
            boat" or reject the Christ Event. Is it merely the sometimes bad
            track record of historical Christianity? Help me out here.

            evlogite

            PS I remember a killer quote by RS regarding the knowledge of the
            Trinity; does anyone know exactly how it goes?

            (Ignorance of the Father is a ... , of the Son an illness and of the
            Holy Spirit a tragedy.--) If anyone knows how this goes, my thanks in
            advance.


            --- In steiner@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
            > Durwood,
            >
            > Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the
            nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the
            spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from
            seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo,
            Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted
            transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat
            across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the
            Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower
            realms as well????
            >
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: DRStarman2001@a...
            > To: steiner@y...
            > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
            > Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ
            >
            >
            > evlogite@y... writes:
            > > Hi Everyone:
            > > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the
            role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand
            the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
            regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
            which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
            writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
            would appreciate any help that you can give.
            >
            > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a
            person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the
            point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability
            to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
            not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
            recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only
            reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so,
            a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a
            particular level or not.
            >
            > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
            with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
            confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said
            quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was
            merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who
            reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
            >
            > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
            entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
            through Initiation was the same described by Western English
            Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
            >
            > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
            does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
            recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
            entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
            one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
            people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
            perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
            have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
            be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
            become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
            impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so
            that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
            rescue Christianity from the same doom.
            >
            > Dr. Starman
            >
            > Post to steiner@e...
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > steiner-unsubscribe@e...
            >
            > Search the archives of the group at:
            > http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
            >
            > Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
            > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
          • jla
            Evlogite, Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly: It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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              Evlogite,
               
              Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly:
               
              It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us but externalizes itself in the Astral realms as images, environments, and inclinations. We gravitate to certain regions and in contact with certain beings in the spiritual worlds based on bias or affiliation. If one is a Buddhist then one will gravitate and support Buddhist astral and devachanic imagery and beings; if one is a Jew or Hindu the same holds true;, and so on. Until one rids oneself of all presuppositions and can eliminate bias, one will see only what is within oneself as externalized and supported as a group astral environment. Eventually we are led to other cultures and religions but fundamental bias can carry over from life to life.
               
              If one thinks the Christ is just another adept or just a wise rabbi, then that is what will appear as "knowledge" to one in most cases. Often the shock of death or a traumatic spiritual experience will propel one out of bias and one will see things as they are.  There are other esoteric explanations involving actual deceptive practices but we will pass on that for now.
               
               Until one enters the spiritual worlds completely open, morally strong and with a predominance of objectivity, certain beings and events will be hidden or seen with limitations, it seems, and this would include the Christ.
               
               
               
              Jeff
              -----
            • antrolutz
              Thanks, Dr Starman! Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit into that? Do you have a view of how the Platonic return works out
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 19, 2002
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                Thanks, Dr Starman!

                Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit
                into that?

                Do you have a view of how the Platonic "return" works out nowadays
                and the cooperation Steiner hoped for?

                I am ready for a looong answer, if it suits you.

                Greetings, Lutz


                Dr.Starman, earlier:
                > *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of
                his life, on
                > the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the
                Anthroposophical
                > Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
                streams:
                > one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.)
                due to a
                > strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan
                wisdom
                > schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a
                simple
                > heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the
                early
                > Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from
                one stream
                > to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian
                teachings
                > but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and
                what not, and
                > others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't
                relate to
                > "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John
                Gardner,
                > who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards
                the end of
                > his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their
                simple
                > heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and
                wrote a little
                > book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and
                Anthroposophy."
                >
                > Dr. Starman
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