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Unique Place of Christ

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  • evlogite
    Hi Everyone: Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the blind
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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      Hi Everyone:

      Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role
      of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the
      blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
      regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
      which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
      writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
      would appreciate any help that you can give.

      evlogite


      > *******The old Theosophical Society was wide open to everything in
      an ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately this often results in reducing
      the Christ Being to the same level as anyone else; but anthroposophy
      teaches this is not so. So we bear the accusation of being dogmatic
      or whatever, because we have to affirm the Christ as the Spirit
      behind all religions, as Edgar Cayce also put it. It's not the same
      as the Father-God that all religions recognize, and the man Jesus was
      not a teacher the same as Confucius or someone. We have to say this
      because we must recognize its truth, since we meet the Christ on the
      Path of Initiation. This certainly doesn't mean that what's called
      the Christian religion today is better than others: Steiner summed up
      his point of view in the title of one lecture, "Christianity Began As
      A Religion But It Is Greater Than All Religions." The Christ having
      come into the earth through his Resurrection has provided an actual
      force that everyone meets on the Path, and it's important to
      recognize what it is. Some ancient religions recognize it, some don't.
      >
      > The other thing spiritual science teaches is that we need to
      develop body-free thinking in the modern era. Concentrating on the
      breath brings you more into the body, not less. If one takes a non-
      physical reality like a mantra or image and meditates on it, the
      breath will regularize of itself, and this is better for most modern
      people. If this sounds dogmatic, well, just try it and see. This is a
      science after all, not a religion. Compare both methods and try to
      objectively examine the results. It's not that one is right or wrong
      but one may have the efect you want in this incarnation while the
      other may not.
      >
      > Starman
      >
      > > golden3000997@c... wrote:
      > > Hello Starman and Everyone!!
      > > I have been following with interest this current discussion...
      > > Steiner never put down any philosophy or really any practice.
      > > I found Steiner circuitously through Yoga and I still find great
      value in Yogic teachings and practices. I think it helpful to
      consider yoga's evolution since the fall of
      > > Atlantis and maybe re-evaluate the breathing as meditation
      practices since we all have lungs now. But hey, deep breathing is
      still good for you!
      > >
      > > I have pictures of Krishna in my kitchen and hope eventually to
      evolve into being able to refrain from all meat products (I can't or
      won't yet - but its coming!) From my understanding and current
      personal belief system, Krishna was a pre-Christian manifestation -
      not Incarnation - of Christ. It's not a question for me of either/
      or, it's a question of the most extreme gratitude to Steiner for
      putting together all of the "seemingly" disparate pieces of the
      cosmic puzzle. In "The Gospel of St. Luke" which has the most
      wonderful information on the Two Jesus Children, there is also the
      most wonderful
      > > description of Christ as the Vishnu Karma, the giver of Karma,
      surrounded by the twelve Boddhisatvas, of which Gautama Buddha was/
      is one, meditating on HIM.
      > >
      > > In the introduction to the Bhagavad Gita, it is told that Krishna
      gave the instruction of the spiritual science of the universe and
      beyond to Manu, which is another name for Noah, the leader of the
      exodus from Atlantis. It has also been many years since I read "The
      Bhagavad-Gita and the Epistles of
      > > St. Paul" by Rudolf Steiner, but I will probably be taking
      > > another look again soon. Don't forget please, his "From Buddha to
      Christ".
    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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        evlogite@... writes:
        > Hi Everyone:
        > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I would appreciate any help that you can give.

        *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

        For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

        Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

        Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

        Dr. Starman
      • antrolutz
        Interesting, Dr Starman! Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams, one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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          Interesting, Dr Starman!

          Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
          one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
          more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
          aspect?

          Lutz

          --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

          > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
          has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
          of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
          come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
          not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
          recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
          only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
          do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
          reached a particular level or not.
          >
          > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
          with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
          confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
          said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
          there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
          anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
          >
          > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
          entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
          through Initiation was the same described by Western English
          Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
          >
          > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
          does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
          recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
          entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
          one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
          people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
          perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
          have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
          be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
          become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
          impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
          so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
          rescue Christianity from the same doom.
          >
          > Dr. Starman
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          ... *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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            info@... writes:
            Interesting, Dr Starman!
            Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
            one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
            more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
            aspect?
            Lutz


            *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three streams: one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.) due to a strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan wisdom schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a simple heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the early Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from one stream to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian teachings but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and what not, and others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't relate to "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John Gardner, who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards the end of his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their simple heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and wrote a little book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and Anthroposophy."

            Dr. Starman


            --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

            > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
            has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
            of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
            come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
            not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
            recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
            only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
            do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
            reached a particular level or not.
            >
            >     For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
            with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
            confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
            said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
            there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
            anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
            >
            >    Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
            entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
            through Initiation was the same described by Western English
            Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
            >
            >    Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
            does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
            recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
            entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
            one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
            people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
            perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
            have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
            be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
            become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
            impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
            so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
            rescue Christianity from the same doom.
            >
            > Dr. Starman


          • jla
            Durwood, Might there be something else that may also blind some to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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              Durwood,
               
              Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo, Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower realms as well????
               
               
              Jeff
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
              Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ

              evlogite@... writes:
              > Hi Everyone:
              > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe?  I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly).  Does anyone here have an insight into this?  I would appreciate any help that you can give.

              *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

                  For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

                 Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

                 Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

              Dr. Starman

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            • evlogite
              Hi Jeff: Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us? Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along one aspect of the spiritual
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                Hi Jeff:
                Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us?
                Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along
                one aspect of the spiritual path (devotional path, for example) and
                have a major blindspot regarding something that falls outside the
                scope of one's training (tolerance for non-believers, for example).
                I wonder what PARTICULAR aspect causes the individual to "miss the
                boat" or reject the Christ Event. Is it merely the sometimes bad
                track record of historical Christianity? Help me out here.

                evlogite

                PS I remember a killer quote by RS regarding the knowledge of the
                Trinity; does anyone know exactly how it goes?

                (Ignorance of the Father is a ... , of the Son an illness and of the
                Holy Spirit a tragedy.--) If anyone knows how this goes, my thanks in
                advance.


                --- In steiner@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                > Durwood,
                >
                > Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the
                nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the
                spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from
                seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo,
                Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted
                transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat
                across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the
                Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower
                realms as well????
                >
                >
                > Jeff
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: DRStarman2001@a...
                > To: steiner@y...
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
                > Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ
                >
                >
                > evlogite@y... writes:
                > > Hi Everyone:
                > > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the
                role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand
                the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
                regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
                which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
                writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
                would appreciate any help that you can give.
                >
                > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a
                person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the
                point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability
                to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
                not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
                recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only
                reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so,
                a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a
                particular level or not.
                >
                > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
                with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
                confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said
                quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was
                merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who
                reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
                >
                > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
                entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
                through Initiation was the same described by Western English
                Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
                >
                > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
                does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
                recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
                entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
                one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
                people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
                perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
                have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
                be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
                become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
                impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so
                that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
                rescue Christianity from the same doom.
                >
                > Dr. Starman
                >
                > Post to steiner@e...
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > steiner-unsubscribe@e...
                >
                > Search the archives of the group at:
                > http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
                >
                > Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
              • jla
                Evlogite, Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly: It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                  Evlogite,
                   
                  Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly:
                   
                  It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us but externalizes itself in the Astral realms as images, environments, and inclinations. We gravitate to certain regions and in contact with certain beings in the spiritual worlds based on bias or affiliation. If one is a Buddhist then one will gravitate and support Buddhist astral and devachanic imagery and beings; if one is a Jew or Hindu the same holds true;, and so on. Until one rids oneself of all presuppositions and can eliminate bias, one will see only what is within oneself as externalized and supported as a group astral environment. Eventually we are led to other cultures and religions but fundamental bias can carry over from life to life.
                   
                  If one thinks the Christ is just another adept or just a wise rabbi, then that is what will appear as "knowledge" to one in most cases. Often the shock of death or a traumatic spiritual experience will propel one out of bias and one will see things as they are.  There are other esoteric explanations involving actual deceptive practices but we will pass on that for now.
                   
                   Until one enters the spiritual worlds completely open, morally strong and with a predominance of objectivity, certain beings and events will be hidden or seen with limitations, it seems, and this would include the Christ.
                   
                   
                   
                  Jeff
                  -----
                • antrolutz
                  Thanks, Dr Starman! Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit into that? Do you have a view of how the Platonic return works out
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 19, 2002
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                    Thanks, Dr Starman!

                    Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit
                    into that?

                    Do you have a view of how the Platonic "return" works out nowadays
                    and the cooperation Steiner hoped for?

                    I am ready for a looong answer, if it suits you.

                    Greetings, Lutz


                    Dr.Starman, earlier:
                    > *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of
                    his life, on
                    > the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the
                    Anthroposophical
                    > Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
                    streams:
                    > one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.)
                    due to a
                    > strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan
                    wisdom
                    > schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a
                    simple
                    > heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the
                    early
                    > Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from
                    one stream
                    > to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian
                    teachings
                    > but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and
                    what not, and
                    > others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't
                    relate to
                    > "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John
                    Gardner,
                    > who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards
                    the end of
                    > his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their
                    simple
                    > heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and
                    wrote a little
                    > book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and
                    Anthroposophy."
                    >
                    > Dr. Starman
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