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Re: [steiner] Openness

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... *******The old Theosophical Society was wide open to everything in an ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately this often results in reducing the Christ Being to
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2002
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      freewill42@... writes:
      > I would recommend a small book called "Sacred Initiations" by Michael Mandeville....
      > In it there are good insights into the "relationships" of Christ, Krishna, Buddha, and even Islam, that are put forth in an ecumenical spirit that is worth considering. Even more beneficial, however, are the instructions on the breath and meditation that help the individual develop his/her own path of openness to the divine.

      *******The old Theosophical Society was wide open to everything in an ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately this often results in reducing the Christ Being to the same level as anyone else; but anthroposophy teaches this is not so. So we bear the accusation of being dogmatic or whatever, because we have to affirm the Christ as the Spirit behind all religions, as Edgar Cayce also put it. It's not the same as the Father-God that all religions recognize, and the man Jesus was not a teacher the same as Confucius or someone. We have to say this because we must recognize its truth, since we meet the Christ on the Path of Initiation. This certainly doesn't mean that what's called the Christian religion today is better than others: Steiner summed up his point of view in the title of one lecture, "Christianity Began As A Religion But It Is Greater Than All Religions." The Christ having come into the earth through his Resurrection has provided an actual force that everyone meets on the Path, and it's important to recognize what it is. Some ancient religions recognize it, some don't.

      The other thing spiritual science teaches is that we need to develop body-free thinking in the modern era. Concentrating on the breath brings you more into the body, not less. If one takes a non-physical reality like a mantra or image and meditates on it, the breath will regularize of itself, and this is better for most modern people. If this sounds dogmatic, well, just try it and see. This is a science after all, not a religion. Compare both methods and try to objectively examine the results. It's not that one is right or wrong but one may have the efect you want in this incarnation while the other may not.

      Starman

      > golden3000997@... wrote:
      > Hello Starman and Everyone!!
      > I have been following with interest this current discussion...
      > Steiner never put down any philosophy or really any practice.
      > I found Steiner circuitously through Yoga and I still find great value in Yogic teachings and practices. I think it helpful to consider yoga's evolution since the fall of
      > Atlantis and maybe re-evaluate the breathing as meditation practices since we all have lungs now. But hey, deep breathing is still good for you!
      >
      > I have pictures of Krishna in my kitchen and hope eventually to evolve into being able to refrain from all meat products (I can't or won't yet - but its coming!) From my understanding and current personal belief system, Krishna was a pre-Christian manifestation - not Incarnation - of Christ. It's not a question for me of either/ or, it's a question of the most extreme gratitude to Steiner for putting together all of the "seemingly" disparate pieces of the cosmic puzzle. In "The Gospel of St. Luke" which has the most wonderful information on the Two Jesus Children, there is also the most wonderful
      > description of Christ as the Vishnu Karma, the giver of Karma, surrounded by the twelve Boddhisatvas, of which Gautama Buddha was/ is one, meditating on HIM.
      >
      > In the introduction to the Bhagavad Gita, it is told that Krishna gave the instruction of the spiritual science of the universe and beyond to Manu, which is another name for Noah, the leader of the exodus from Atlantis. It has also been many years since I read "The Bhagavad-Gita and the Epistles of
      > St. Paul" by Rudolf Steiner, but I will probably be taking
      > another look again soon. Don't forget please, his "From Buddha to Christ".
    • evlogite
      Hi Everyone: Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the blind
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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        Hi Everyone:

        Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role
        of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the
        blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
        regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
        which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
        writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
        would appreciate any help that you can give.

        evlogite


        > *******The old Theosophical Society was wide open to everything in
        an ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately this often results in reducing
        the Christ Being to the same level as anyone else; but anthroposophy
        teaches this is not so. So we bear the accusation of being dogmatic
        or whatever, because we have to affirm the Christ as the Spirit
        behind all religions, as Edgar Cayce also put it. It's not the same
        as the Father-God that all religions recognize, and the man Jesus was
        not a teacher the same as Confucius or someone. We have to say this
        because we must recognize its truth, since we meet the Christ on the
        Path of Initiation. This certainly doesn't mean that what's called
        the Christian religion today is better than others: Steiner summed up
        his point of view in the title of one lecture, "Christianity Began As
        A Religion But It Is Greater Than All Religions." The Christ having
        come into the earth through his Resurrection has provided an actual
        force that everyone meets on the Path, and it's important to
        recognize what it is. Some ancient religions recognize it, some don't.
        >
        > The other thing spiritual science teaches is that we need to
        develop body-free thinking in the modern era. Concentrating on the
        breath brings you more into the body, not less. If one takes a non-
        physical reality like a mantra or image and meditates on it, the
        breath will regularize of itself, and this is better for most modern
        people. If this sounds dogmatic, well, just try it and see. This is a
        science after all, not a religion. Compare both methods and try to
        objectively examine the results. It's not that one is right or wrong
        but one may have the efect you want in this incarnation while the
        other may not.
        >
        > Starman
        >
        > > golden3000997@c... wrote:
        > > Hello Starman and Everyone!!
        > > I have been following with interest this current discussion...
        > > Steiner never put down any philosophy or really any practice.
        > > I found Steiner circuitously through Yoga and I still find great
        value in Yogic teachings and practices. I think it helpful to
        consider yoga's evolution since the fall of
        > > Atlantis and maybe re-evaluate the breathing as meditation
        practices since we all have lungs now. But hey, deep breathing is
        still good for you!
        > >
        > > I have pictures of Krishna in my kitchen and hope eventually to
        evolve into being able to refrain from all meat products (I can't or
        won't yet - but its coming!) From my understanding and current
        personal belief system, Krishna was a pre-Christian manifestation -
        not Incarnation - of Christ. It's not a question for me of either/
        or, it's a question of the most extreme gratitude to Steiner for
        putting together all of the "seemingly" disparate pieces of the
        cosmic puzzle. In "The Gospel of St. Luke" which has the most
        wonderful information on the Two Jesus Children, there is also the
        most wonderful
        > > description of Christ as the Vishnu Karma, the giver of Karma,
        surrounded by the twelve Boddhisatvas, of which Gautama Buddha was/
        is one, meditating on HIM.
        > >
        > > In the introduction to the Bhagavad Gita, it is told that Krishna
        gave the instruction of the spiritual science of the universe and
        beyond to Manu, which is another name for Noah, the leader of the
        exodus from Atlantis. It has also been many years since I read "The
        Bhagavad-Gita and the Epistles of
        > > St. Paul" by Rudolf Steiner, but I will probably be taking
        > > another look again soon. Don't forget please, his "From Buddha to
        Christ".
      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        ... *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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          evlogite@... writes:
          > Hi Everyone:
          > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I would appreciate any help that you can give.

          *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

          For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

          Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

          Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

          Dr. Starman
        • antrolutz
          Interesting, Dr Starman! Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams, one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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            Interesting, Dr Starman!

            Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
            one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
            more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
            aspect?

            Lutz

            --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

            > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
            has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
            of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
            come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
            not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
            recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
            only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
            do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
            reached a particular level or not.
            >
            > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
            with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
            confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
            said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
            there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
            anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
            >
            > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
            entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
            through Initiation was the same described by Western English
            Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
            >
            > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
            does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
            recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
            entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
            one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
            people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
            perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
            have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
            be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
            become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
            impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
            so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
            rescue Christianity from the same doom.
            >
            > Dr. Starman
          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            ... *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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              info@... writes:
              Interesting, Dr Starman!
              Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
              one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
              more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
              aspect?
              Lutz


              *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three streams: one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.) due to a strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan wisdom schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a simple heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the early Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from one stream to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian teachings but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and what not, and others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't relate to "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John Gardner, who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards the end of his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their simple heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and wrote a little book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and Anthroposophy."

              Dr. Starman


              --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

              > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
              has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
              of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
              come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
              not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
              recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
              only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
              do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
              reached a particular level or not.
              >
              >     For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
              with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
              confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
              said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
              there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
              anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
              >
              >    Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
              entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
              through Initiation was the same described by Western English
              Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
              >
              >    Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
              does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
              recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
              entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
              one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
              people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
              perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
              have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
              be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
              become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
              impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
              so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
              rescue Christianity from the same doom.
              >
              > Dr. Starman


            • jla
              Durwood, Might there be something else that may also blind some to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                Durwood,
                 
                Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo, Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower realms as well????
                 
                 
                Jeff
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
                Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ

                evlogite@... writes:
                > Hi Everyone:
                > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe?  I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly).  Does anyone here have an insight into this?  I would appreciate any help that you can give.

                *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

                    For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

                   Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

                   Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

                Dr. Starman

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              • evlogite
                Hi Jeff: Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us? Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along one aspect of the spiritual
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                  Hi Jeff:
                  Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us?
                  Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along
                  one aspect of the spiritual path (devotional path, for example) and
                  have a major blindspot regarding something that falls outside the
                  scope of one's training (tolerance for non-believers, for example).
                  I wonder what PARTICULAR aspect causes the individual to "miss the
                  boat" or reject the Christ Event. Is it merely the sometimes bad
                  track record of historical Christianity? Help me out here.

                  evlogite

                  PS I remember a killer quote by RS regarding the knowledge of the
                  Trinity; does anyone know exactly how it goes?

                  (Ignorance of the Father is a ... , of the Son an illness and of the
                  Holy Spirit a tragedy.--) If anyone knows how this goes, my thanks in
                  advance.


                  --- In steiner@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                  > Durwood,
                  >
                  > Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the
                  nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the
                  spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from
                  seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo,
                  Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted
                  transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat
                  across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the
                  Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower
                  realms as well????
                  >
                  >
                  > Jeff
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: DRStarman2001@a...
                  > To: steiner@y...
                  > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ
                  >
                  >
                  > evlogite@y... writes:
                  > > Hi Everyone:
                  > > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the
                  role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand
                  the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
                  regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
                  which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
                  writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
                  would appreciate any help that you can give.
                  >
                  > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a
                  person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the
                  point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability
                  to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
                  not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
                  recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only
                  reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so,
                  a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a
                  particular level or not.
                  >
                  > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
                  with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
                  confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said
                  quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was
                  merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who
                  reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
                  >
                  > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
                  entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
                  through Initiation was the same described by Western English
                  Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
                  >
                  > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
                  does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
                  recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
                  entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
                  one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
                  people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
                  perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
                  have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
                  be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
                  become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
                  impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so
                  that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
                  rescue Christianity from the same doom.
                  >
                  > Dr. Starman
                  >
                  > Post to steiner@e...
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > steiner-unsubscribe@e...
                  >
                  > Search the archives of the group at:
                  > http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
                  >
                  > Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                  > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                • jla
                  Evlogite, Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly: It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                    Evlogite,
                     
                    Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly:
                     
                    It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us but externalizes itself in the Astral realms as images, environments, and inclinations. We gravitate to certain regions and in contact with certain beings in the spiritual worlds based on bias or affiliation. If one is a Buddhist then one will gravitate and support Buddhist astral and devachanic imagery and beings; if one is a Jew or Hindu the same holds true;, and so on. Until one rids oneself of all presuppositions and can eliminate bias, one will see only what is within oneself as externalized and supported as a group astral environment. Eventually we are led to other cultures and religions but fundamental bias can carry over from life to life.
                     
                    If one thinks the Christ is just another adept or just a wise rabbi, then that is what will appear as "knowledge" to one in most cases. Often the shock of death or a traumatic spiritual experience will propel one out of bias and one will see things as they are.  There are other esoteric explanations involving actual deceptive practices but we will pass on that for now.
                     
                     Until one enters the spiritual worlds completely open, morally strong and with a predominance of objectivity, certain beings and events will be hidden or seen with limitations, it seems, and this would include the Christ.
                     
                     
                     
                    Jeff
                    -----
                  • antrolutz
                    Thanks, Dr Starman! Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit into that? Do you have a view of how the Platonic return works out
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 19, 2002
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                      Thanks, Dr Starman!

                      Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit
                      into that?

                      Do you have a view of how the Platonic "return" works out nowadays
                      and the cooperation Steiner hoped for?

                      I am ready for a looong answer, if it suits you.

                      Greetings, Lutz


                      Dr.Starman, earlier:
                      > *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of
                      his life, on
                      > the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the
                      Anthroposophical
                      > Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
                      streams:
                      > one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.)
                      due to a
                      > strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan
                      wisdom
                      > schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a
                      simple
                      > heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the
                      early
                      > Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from
                      one stream
                      > to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian
                      teachings
                      > but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and
                      what not, and
                      > others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't
                      relate to
                      > "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John
                      Gardner,
                      > who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards
                      the end of
                      > his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their
                      simple
                      > heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and
                      wrote a little
                      > book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and
                      Anthroposophy."
                      >
                      > Dr. Starman
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