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Re: [steiner] Openness

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  • Will McGown
    I agree with much of what you wrote about openness. With reference to what you wrote below, I would recommend a small book called Sacred Initiations by
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2002
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      I agree with much of what you wrote about openness. With reference to what you wrote below, I would recommend a small book called "Sacred Initiations" by Michael Mandeville which you can read about at http://www.michaelmandeville.com

      In it there are good insights into the "relationships" of Christ, Krishna, Buddha, and even Islam, that are put forth in an ecumenical spirit that is worth considering. Even more beneficial, however, are the instructions on the breath and meditation that help the individual develop his/her own path of openness to the divine.

      golden3000997@... wrote:

      Hello Starman and Everyone!!

      I have been following with interest this current discussion...
      Steiner never put down any philosophy or really any practice. 

      I found Steiner
      circuitously through Yoga and I still find great value in Yogic teachings and
      practices. I think it helpful to consider yoga's evolution since the fall of
      Atlantis and maybe re-evaluate the breathing as meditation practices since we all have lungs now. But hey, deep breathing is still good for you!

      I have pictures of Krishna in my kitchen and hope eventually to evolve into
      being able to refrain from all meat products (I can't or won't yet - but its
      coming!) From my understanding and current personal belief system, Krishna
      was a pre-Christian manifestation - not Incarnation - of Christ. It's not a
      question for me of either/ or, it's a question of the most extreme gratitude
      to Steiner for putting together all of the "seemingly" disparate pieces of
      the cosmic puzzle. In "The Gospel of St. Luke" which has the most wonderful
      information on the Two Jesus Children, there is also the most wonderful
      description of Christ as the Vishnu Karma, the giver of Karma, surrounded by
      the twelve Boddhisatvas, of which Gautama Buddha was/ is one, meditating on
      HIM.

      In the introduction to the Bhagavad Gita, it is told that Krishna gave the
      instruction of the spiritual science of the universe and beyond to Manu,
      which is another name for Noah, the leader of the exodus from Atlantis. It
      has also been many years since I read "The Bhagavad-Gita and the Epistles of
      St. Paul" by Rudolf Steiner, but I will probably be taking another look again
      soon. Don't forget please, his "From Buddha to Christ".



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    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... *******The old Theosophical Society was wide open to everything in an ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately this often results in reducing the Christ Being to
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 1, 2002
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        freewill42@... writes:
        > I would recommend a small book called "Sacred Initiations" by Michael Mandeville....
        > In it there are good insights into the "relationships" of Christ, Krishna, Buddha, and even Islam, that are put forth in an ecumenical spirit that is worth considering. Even more beneficial, however, are the instructions on the breath and meditation that help the individual develop his/her own path of openness to the divine.

        *******The old Theosophical Society was wide open to everything in an ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately this often results in reducing the Christ Being to the same level as anyone else; but anthroposophy teaches this is not so. So we bear the accusation of being dogmatic or whatever, because we have to affirm the Christ as the Spirit behind all religions, as Edgar Cayce also put it. It's not the same as the Father-God that all religions recognize, and the man Jesus was not a teacher the same as Confucius or someone. We have to say this because we must recognize its truth, since we meet the Christ on the Path of Initiation. This certainly doesn't mean that what's called the Christian religion today is better than others: Steiner summed up his point of view in the title of one lecture, "Christianity Began As A Religion But It Is Greater Than All Religions." The Christ having come into the earth through his Resurrection has provided an actual force that everyone meets on the Path, and it's important to recognize what it is. Some ancient religions recognize it, some don't.

        The other thing spiritual science teaches is that we need to develop body-free thinking in the modern era. Concentrating on the breath brings you more into the body, not less. If one takes a non-physical reality like a mantra or image and meditates on it, the breath will regularize of itself, and this is better for most modern people. If this sounds dogmatic, well, just try it and see. This is a science after all, not a religion. Compare both methods and try to objectively examine the results. It's not that one is right or wrong but one may have the efect you want in this incarnation while the other may not.

        Starman

        > golden3000997@... wrote:
        > Hello Starman and Everyone!!
        > I have been following with interest this current discussion...
        > Steiner never put down any philosophy or really any practice.
        > I found Steiner circuitously through Yoga and I still find great value in Yogic teachings and practices. I think it helpful to consider yoga's evolution since the fall of
        > Atlantis and maybe re-evaluate the breathing as meditation practices since we all have lungs now. But hey, deep breathing is still good for you!
        >
        > I have pictures of Krishna in my kitchen and hope eventually to evolve into being able to refrain from all meat products (I can't or won't yet - but its coming!) From my understanding and current personal belief system, Krishna was a pre-Christian manifestation - not Incarnation - of Christ. It's not a question for me of either/ or, it's a question of the most extreme gratitude to Steiner for putting together all of the "seemingly" disparate pieces of the cosmic puzzle. In "The Gospel of St. Luke" which has the most wonderful information on the Two Jesus Children, there is also the most wonderful
        > description of Christ as the Vishnu Karma, the giver of Karma, surrounded by the twelve Boddhisatvas, of which Gautama Buddha was/ is one, meditating on HIM.
        >
        > In the introduction to the Bhagavad Gita, it is told that Krishna gave the instruction of the spiritual science of the universe and beyond to Manu, which is another name for Noah, the leader of the exodus from Atlantis. It has also been many years since I read "The Bhagavad-Gita and the Epistles of
        > St. Paul" by Rudolf Steiner, but I will probably be taking
        > another look again soon. Don't forget please, his "From Buddha to Christ".
      • evlogite
        Hi Everyone: Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the blind
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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          Hi Everyone:

          Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role
          of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the
          blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
          regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
          which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
          writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
          would appreciate any help that you can give.

          evlogite


          > *******The old Theosophical Society was wide open to everything in
          an ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately this often results in reducing
          the Christ Being to the same level as anyone else; but anthroposophy
          teaches this is not so. So we bear the accusation of being dogmatic
          or whatever, because we have to affirm the Christ as the Spirit
          behind all religions, as Edgar Cayce also put it. It's not the same
          as the Father-God that all religions recognize, and the man Jesus was
          not a teacher the same as Confucius or someone. We have to say this
          because we must recognize its truth, since we meet the Christ on the
          Path of Initiation. This certainly doesn't mean that what's called
          the Christian religion today is better than others: Steiner summed up
          his point of view in the title of one lecture, "Christianity Began As
          A Religion But It Is Greater Than All Religions." The Christ having
          come into the earth through his Resurrection has provided an actual
          force that everyone meets on the Path, and it's important to
          recognize what it is. Some ancient religions recognize it, some don't.
          >
          > The other thing spiritual science teaches is that we need to
          develop body-free thinking in the modern era. Concentrating on the
          breath brings you more into the body, not less. If one takes a non-
          physical reality like a mantra or image and meditates on it, the
          breath will regularize of itself, and this is better for most modern
          people. If this sounds dogmatic, well, just try it and see. This is a
          science after all, not a religion. Compare both methods and try to
          objectively examine the results. It's not that one is right or wrong
          but one may have the efect you want in this incarnation while the
          other may not.
          >
          > Starman
          >
          > > golden3000997@c... wrote:
          > > Hello Starman and Everyone!!
          > > I have been following with interest this current discussion...
          > > Steiner never put down any philosophy or really any practice.
          > > I found Steiner circuitously through Yoga and I still find great
          value in Yogic teachings and practices. I think it helpful to
          consider yoga's evolution since the fall of
          > > Atlantis and maybe re-evaluate the breathing as meditation
          practices since we all have lungs now. But hey, deep breathing is
          still good for you!
          > >
          > > I have pictures of Krishna in my kitchen and hope eventually to
          evolve into being able to refrain from all meat products (I can't or
          won't yet - but its coming!) From my understanding and current
          personal belief system, Krishna was a pre-Christian manifestation -
          not Incarnation - of Christ. It's not a question for me of either/
          or, it's a question of the most extreme gratitude to Steiner for
          putting together all of the "seemingly" disparate pieces of the
          cosmic puzzle. In "The Gospel of St. Luke" which has the most
          wonderful information on the Two Jesus Children, there is also the
          most wonderful
          > > description of Christ as the Vishnu Karma, the giver of Karma,
          surrounded by the twelve Boddhisatvas, of which Gautama Buddha was/
          is one, meditating on HIM.
          > >
          > > In the introduction to the Bhagavad Gita, it is told that Krishna
          gave the instruction of the spiritual science of the universe and
          beyond to Manu, which is another name for Noah, the leader of the
          exodus from Atlantis. It has also been many years since I read "The
          Bhagavad-Gita and the Epistles of
          > > St. Paul" by Rudolf Steiner, but I will probably be taking
          > > another look again soon. Don't forget please, his "From Buddha to
          Christ".
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          ... *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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            evlogite@... writes:
            > Hi Everyone:
            > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I would appreciate any help that you can give.

            *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

            For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

            Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

            Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

            Dr. Starman
          • antrolutz
            Interesting, Dr Starman! Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams, one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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              Interesting, Dr Starman!

              Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
              one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
              more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
              aspect?

              Lutz

              --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

              > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
              has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
              of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
              come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
              not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
              recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
              only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
              do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
              reached a particular level or not.
              >
              > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
              with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
              confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
              said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
              there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
              anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
              >
              > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
              entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
              through Initiation was the same described by Western English
              Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
              >
              > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
              does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
              recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
              entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
              one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
              people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
              perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
              have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
              be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
              become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
              impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
              so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
              rescue Christianity from the same doom.
              >
              > Dr. Starman
            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              ... *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                info@... writes:
                Interesting, Dr Starman!
                Somewhere with Steiner (karmic lectures??) I read about two streams,
                one with understanding Christ as the cosmic being, the other with
                more "Jesus" understanding/experience. Do you know more about this
                aspect?
                Lutz


                *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of his life, on the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the Anthroposophical Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three streams: one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.) due to a strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan wisdom schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a simple heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the early Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from one stream to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian teachings but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and what not, and others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't relate to "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John Gardner, who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards the end of his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their simple heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and wrote a little book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and Anthroposophy."

                Dr. Starman


                --- In steiner@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

                > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person
                has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point
                of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to
                come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
                not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
                recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has
                only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to
                do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has
                reached a particular level or not.
                >
                >     For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
                with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
                confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but
                said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan
                there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because
                anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
                >
                >    Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
                entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
                through Initiation was the same described by Western English
                Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
                >
                >    Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
                does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
                recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
                entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
                one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
                people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
                perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
                have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
                be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
                become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
                impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate,
                so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
                rescue Christianity from the same doom.
                >
                > Dr. Starman


              • jla
                Durwood, Might there be something else that may also blind some to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                  Durwood,
                   
                  Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo, Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower realms as well????
                   
                   
                  Jeff
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
                  Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ

                  evlogite@... writes:
                  > Hi Everyone:
                  > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the role of Christ in the universe?  I am currently trying to understand the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office) which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her writings correctly).  Does anyone here have an insight into this?  I would appreciate any help that you can give.

                  *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so, a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a particular level or not.

                      For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).

                     Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew through Initiation was the same described by Western English Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).

                     Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to rescue Christianity from the same doom.

                  Dr. Starman

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                • evlogite
                  Hi Jeff: Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us? Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along one aspect of the spiritual
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                    Hi Jeff:
                    Is it preconceived notion and bias that blinds us?
                    Interesting. I know that it is possible to be very developed along
                    one aspect of the spiritual path (devotional path, for example) and
                    have a major blindspot regarding something that falls outside the
                    scope of one's training (tolerance for non-believers, for example).
                    I wonder what PARTICULAR aspect causes the individual to "miss the
                    boat" or reject the Christ Event. Is it merely the sometimes bad
                    track record of historical Christianity? Help me out here.

                    evlogite

                    PS I remember a killer quote by RS regarding the knowledge of the
                    Trinity; does anyone know exactly how it goes?

                    (Ignorance of the Father is a ... , of the Son an illness and of the
                    Holy Spirit a tragedy.--) If anyone knows how this goes, my thanks in
                    advance.


                    --- In steiner@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                    > Durwood,
                    >
                    > Might there be something else that may also "blind some" to the
                    nature of the Christ? There must be some bias carried over into the
                    spiritual world that prevents even some very advanced souls from
                    seeing the "fact" of the Christ Being. Great Teachers like Aurobindo,
                    Meher Baba, the Dali Lama, and others reached very exalted
                    transcendental states far beyond the astral yet missed the boat
                    across Jordan, so to speak. And if the Christ is now active as the
                    Etheric Christ, surely He must be present and noticeable in the lower
                    realms as well????
                    >
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: DRStarman2001@a...
                    > To: steiner@y...
                    > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:48 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [steiner] Unique Place of Christ
                    >
                    >
                    > evlogite@y... writes:
                    > > Hi Everyone:
                    > > Why is it that so many otherwise insightful streams confuse the
                    role of Christ in the universe? I am currently trying to understand
                    the blind spot that some, such as Alice Bailey, Besant, et al, have
                    regarding Christ. Bailey sees Christ as an cosmic position (office)
                    which a number of beings periodically occupy (if I understand her
                    writings correctly). Does anyone here have an insight into this? I
                    would appreciate any help that you can give.
                    >
                    > *******I would say it simply shows how far along the Path a
                    person has gotten. We meet the Christ Being at a certain point, the
                    point of legitimate entry into the spiritual world with the ability
                    to come and go at will from then on. Entry onto the astral plane does
                    not require this. In the same way as a physical scientist can
                    recognize whether a man has or has not mastered calculus, or has only
                    reached a point of beginning to acquire the thinking needed to do so,
                    a spiritual scientist can recognize whether a person has reached a
                    particular level or not.
                    >
                    > For example, Dr. Steiner once discussed Mr. Leadbeater's book
                    with its descriptions of the astral plane and lower Devachan. He
                    confirmed that the description of the astral plane was real, but said
                    quite objectively that the alleged description of Devachan there was
                    merely a re-worked depiction of the astral again (because anyone who
                    reaches it knows it is "heard", not seen).
                    >
                    > Similarly, look at Swami Yogananda's work. Though educated
                    entirely in Eastern wisdom, he recognized that the Being he knew
                    through Initiation was the same described by Western English
                    Christianity in his country (as did his guru, Sri Yukteswar).
                    >
                    > Just as entering the spiritual world without self-knowledge
                    does not enable one to orient oneself, and thus it's required to
                    recognize one's alter ego as the Lesser Guardian first, so the final
                    entry that enables one to come and go at will from then on requires
                    one to recognize that Other, the One who became the Mediator. Many
                    people in the West have become alienated from the Christ through the
                    perversion of the Christian religion by the opposing Powers, and so
                    have a great difficulty doing this. It is of critical importance to
                    be able to do so, however, or else one's occultism will merely
                    become 'Luciferic' or 'Ahrimanic'. Dr. Steiner came to rescue the
                    impulse of the White Brotherhood we call Theosophy from this fate, so
                    that it could be fruitful. One could even perhaps say he came to
                    rescue Christianity from the same doom.
                    >
                    > Dr. Starman
                    >
                    > Post to steiner@e...
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > steiner-unsubscribe@e...
                    >
                    > Search the archives of the group at:
                    > http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
                    >
                    > Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                    > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                  • jla
                    Evlogite, Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly: It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
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                      Evlogite,
                       
                      Here is a point of view on this issue of knowing the Christ directly:
                       
                      It is clear from esoteric and spiritual reports that bias in not just within us but externalizes itself in the Astral realms as images, environments, and inclinations. We gravitate to certain regions and in contact with certain beings in the spiritual worlds based on bias or affiliation. If one is a Buddhist then one will gravitate and support Buddhist astral and devachanic imagery and beings; if one is a Jew or Hindu the same holds true;, and so on. Until one rids oneself of all presuppositions and can eliminate bias, one will see only what is within oneself as externalized and supported as a group astral environment. Eventually we are led to other cultures and religions but fundamental bias can carry over from life to life.
                       
                      If one thinks the Christ is just another adept or just a wise rabbi, then that is what will appear as "knowledge" to one in most cases. Often the shock of death or a traumatic spiritual experience will propel one out of bias and one will see things as they are.  There are other esoteric explanations involving actual deceptive practices but we will pass on that for now.
                       
                       Until one enters the spiritual worlds completely open, morally strong and with a predominance of objectivity, certain beings and events will be hidden or seen with limitations, it seems, and this would include the Christ.
                       
                       
                       
                      Jeff
                      -----
                    • antrolutz
                      Thanks, Dr Starman! Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit into that? Do you have a view of how the Platonic return works out
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 19, 2002
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                        Thanks, Dr Starman!

                        Any ideas about wether/how the Aristotelian / Platonic streams fit
                        into that?

                        Do you have a view of how the Platonic "return" works out nowadays
                        and the cooperation Steiner hoped for?

                        I am ready for a looong answer, if it suits you.

                        Greetings, Lutz


                        Dr.Starman, earlier:
                        > *******It was indeed in the Karma lectures he gave at the end of
                        his life, on
                        > the karma of those of us who would be attracted to the
                        Anthroposophical
                        > Sopciety, in fact. But what he said was that there would be three
                        streams:
                        > one, a group who were attracted to the cosmology (astrology, etc.)
                        due to a
                        > strong influence from their incarnations in pre-Christian pagan
                        wisdom
                        > schools; then a second group who had no such, but did have a
                        simple
                        > heart-understanding of the Christ from their incarnations in the
                        early
                        > Christian era; and a third group who would be sort of moving from
                        one stream
                        > to the other. One can see this in those who take up the Christian
                        teachings
                        > but have a hard time with "Ancient Saturn", "Fire Spirits" and
                        what not, and
                        > others who can wax eloquently about occult cosmology but don't
                        relate to
                        > "Jesus stuff" too well. For an example of the third, look at John
                        Gardner,
                        > who published all the Myrin Institute "Proceedings" but towards
                        the end of
                        > his life joined a born-again Christian group and saw how their
                        simple
                        > heart-relation to Christ had such valid results for them, and
                        wrote a little
                        > book, "Two Paths To The Spirit: Charismatic Christianity and
                        Anthroposophy."
                        >
                        > Dr. Starman
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