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5649Re: [steiner] Re: Threefold Social Order-Pt. 8: Commentary

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  • Durward Starman
    Dec 31, 2012
      ******* Juan, when I saw you just re-joined this list I figured I'd let you have another chance to participate. But what you just wrote is saying black is white. An absolute requirement for anthroposophy is clear thinking--- which is what I've tried to do here... To wit--i . . Fact #1. Steiner says "socialists" (I said "left-wingers") --- this means those who want the government to take over the economy, be they in the US, in Cuba, Venezuela, N. Korea, Argentina or wherever. You just read Steiner in plain English explaining why this is wrong, always creates disaster and must not exist in a healthy society. You can go back and read him state from Pt. 1 on repeatedly, and why. Fact # 2. Libertarians, conservatives and anti-leftists want freedom of people economically from government control--- once again whether in the US, Romania or wherever. (The only way I can think of that anyone could say US conservatives want ANY government control is restricting abortion-- which is a tiny fraction of the economy and which many libertarians, unlike religious conservatives, don't mind.) So Steiner's idea of separating the government and the economy is absolutely against one side, the Left, and very much embraced by the other--- and my point is all leftists MUST oppose the threefold social order, they're mutual opposites. . I have no idea what a "left wing of esoteric propagation" is supposed to mean but it sounds to me like some words (presumably of Steiner's, though I don't recall seeing them in 35 years of study), which have nothing to do with our subject which is his Threefold Social Order writings. Steiner just said here, clearly, that there's nothing wrong with concentrations of economic power and that economic titans must run the economy, that the problem is when they become entangled with government and so the economy and the State must be kept separate, THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF SOCIALISM but a cardinal belief of the right, free-market or laissez-faire capitalism. Religious conservatives also believe in the importance of his third, independent spiritual sphere, they just don't have it defined as clearly. Marxism and socialism is totally against all of it. So it appears to me from Steiner's clear words. -starman
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

      -----Original Message-----
      From: juancompostella <juancompostella@...>
      Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 05:18:48
      To: <steiner@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [steiner] Re: Threefold Social Order-Pt. 8: Commentary


      With assurances for success in this New Year, which will mark 600 years since the 5th cultural epoch began in 1413, let us remember that it was Rudolf Steiner himself who designated his movement as one involving the left-wing of esoteric propagation. His reasoning concerned the fact that the leftists always have a special aim for their agenda, and his was to bring forth esoteric knowledge with as much truth, and as few restrictions, as possible.
      Accordingly, the right-wing wants to hold as much for itself as possible. If it was up to them, we would know nothing more than the debt-ridden and menial existence which exacts to a lower-class society of lesser humans. In other words, the rightists have their own aims, which involves the lawyers and the politicians and the lobbyists, and all designed to protect the few who hold the riches in their greedy grasp as if nothing else existed to make real sense of the world and its inherent struggle and striving.
      A perspective on "Threefolding of the Social Organism" must recognize a Right as much as a Left. The reason concerns the important fact that there is a Middle Term. It is the One that extends the 'Rights Life' to both the left and the right.
      Equanimity is the outcome.
      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman wrote:
      > "If... the legal system grows up on independent ground out
      > of the consciousness of rights, and if the will of the individual dwelling in
      > the spirit is developed in a free cultural life, then the legal system,
      > strength of spirit and economic activity work together as a unity. They will be
      > able to do so when they can develop, each according to its own proper nature,
      > in distinct fields of life. It is just in separation that they will turn to
      > unity; when an artificial unity is imposed, they become estranged.
      > Many socialist thinkers will thus dismiss such a view: "It is
      > impossible to bring about satisfactory conditions through this organic
      > formation of society. It can be done only through a suitable economic
      > organization." They overlook the fact that those who work in their economic
      > organization are endowed with wills. If one tells them this, they will smile,
      > for they regard it as self-evident. Yet their thoughts are busy constructing a
      > social edifice in which this "self-evident fact" is ignored. Their economic
      > organization is to be controlled by a communal will. However, this must after
      > all be the result of the individual wills of the people united in the
      > organization. These individual wills can never take effect if the communal will
      > is derived entirely from the idea of economic organization. Individual wills
      > can expand unfettered if, alongside the economic sphere, there is a legal
      > sphere where the standard is set, not by any economic point of view, but only
      > by the consciousness of rights, and if, alongside both the economic and legal
      > spheres, a free cultural life can find place, following only the impulses of
      > the spirit. Then we shall not have a social order running like clockwork, in
      > which individual wills could never find a lasting place....
      > ******Which is what we have gotten in every place socialism was imposed--- not LESS alienation from society, but MORE. The only reason I can think of anthroposophists still being leftists is that they either haven't really read Steiner's threefold Social Order works, or they've only seen the distortions of him by other leftist anthros ---who are in denial that he declares that it, by its nature, will always have to be the disaster it's so far always proven itself to be.
      > "...Then human beings will
      > find it possible to give their wills a social bent and to bring them constantly
      > to bear on the shaping of social circumstances. Under the free cultural life
      > the individual will shall become social. When legal institutions are
      > self-subsisting, these socially attuned individual wills shall yield a communal
      > will that works justly. The individual wills, socially oriented and organized
      > by the independent legal system, will exert themselves within the economic
      > system, producing and distributing goods as social needs demand.
      > Most people today still lack faith in the possibility of
      > establishing a social order based on individual wills. They have no faith in it
      > because such a faith cannot come from a cultural life that has developed in
      > dependence on the state and the economy...
      > *******If that's where all your ideas come from, you see no support for the free spiritual life and the other 2 spheres being independent and free as well... so why complain about the economy and the government and seek remedies only within the economy and the government? Because that's how we're trained to think in government schools by unimaginative bureaucrats. A free spirit I knew named Robert Kennedy used to quote George Bernard Shaw: "Some men see things as they are and say 'Why?'---I dream things that never were, and say, "Why not?" Another named Sting, before he forgot to follow his own advice and descended into leftist diatribes, sang "There is no political solution to our frustrated evolution... There's no bloody revolution... We are spirits in the material world."
      > "...The kind of spirit that does not
      > develop in freedom out of the life of the spirit itself but rather out of an
      > external organization simply does not know what are the spirit's potentials. It
      > looks about for something to guide and manage it, not knowing how the spirit
      > guides and manages itself if it can but draw its strength from its own sources.
      > It would like to have a board of management for the spirit — a branch of the
      > economic and legal organizations — totally disregarding the fact that the
      > economy and the legal system can thrive only when permeated with the spirit
      > that is self-subsistent."

      > *******Or how about Paul McCartney: "Hey Jude---the movement you seek is on your shoulders!"
      > Here's to new impulses in a New Year.-
      To Be Continued....
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