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5112Re: different approaches to anthroposophy

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  • carynlouise24
    Dec 17, 2009
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      Durward, may I ask does the sand get into your eyes or do you keep them closed?

      It is my understanding the Muslim people hold their morals highly. They are extremely moral people. If one digs deep enough one might find where the extremist element comes from, those that stir up trouble and unrest on purpose in the Middle East for their own agenda.

      The morals of the Muslim people compared to the western people are 100 fold.

      Your concept of 666 is surprising considering you call yourself to be an anthroposophist an astrological one as well.

      You talk about knowledge of higher worlds, art, eurythmy etc etc without addressing the most fundamental fact of life. Truth.

      As you stated eloquently yourself:

      `I don't like to bring up politics, but it is an elementary basic of spiritual science that one has to train one's own thinking to be realistic in relation to everyday facts of the physical world, otherwise one will carry the same exaggerated, fantastical thinking with one when one enters the spiritual world, resulting only in hallucinations and no definite knowledge.'


      Or are your opinions swayed by that institution – the Jewish Vatican –who obviously want to place the so called anti-christ on their throne … of which the one sits already.






      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
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      > ******* Sorry, Caryn, you've tried this before. I have no interest in conspiracy theories. There are lots of political groups online where you can discuss such things if you wish. They have nothing to do with Steiner or anthroposophy--- except perhaps as an example of just the kind of thing I wrote about below, namely people stretching some remarks the Doctor made about European Masons in the 1920s to buttress their conspiracy theories now, in our 21st century, in a completely different time and place.
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      > Specifically, the idea that the 19 Saudis and Egyptians flying the planes into buildings for Bin Laden's Al Qaeda was actually a Western (CIA? Jewish?) conspiracy belongs with Holocaust denial and people arguing we really didn't land on the moon. There is no evidence that it was anything other than what it clearly was, an attack on Western economic power by anti-modernist Wahabi Islamists. I have seen no evidence at all, in 8 years, of it being a 'Reichstag Fire' strategy, a staged event to cause the West to hate the Muslim world--- instead all available evidence points the opposite way.
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      > The only relevance to Steiner is his forecast of demonic powers (666) beginning to attack the world in 1998, which he connected to Islam. I can re-post those remarks if anyone wants to talk realistically about radical Islam and its war on mankind.
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      > -starman
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      > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      > From: carynlouise24@...
      > Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:02:25 +0000
      > Subject: [steiner] Re: different approaches to anthroposophy
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      > Greetings Durward and Peter; apologies for interrupting your discussion but if I may bring in a thought for consideration.
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      > `I know many of the leaders of the movement, and they are always looking for the next direction of evolution'
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      > But this is a very simple answer: Truth.
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      > We are in the age of developing the consciousness soul and it does surprise me that the leaders of the movement and many who call themselves anthroposophist have not grasped this simple fact.
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      > The silence on 9/11 from the anthroposophists is questionable. There is enough evidence too shine light on this happening.
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      > And yet there seems to be an ostrich position taken by burying ones head in the sand. And of course this makes it worse.
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      > Looking at this event from a distance we see the ruthless engineering behind it was to attack innocent people and with this stir up racist hate.
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      > One cannot wonder why there is an anti-west feeling in the east. But this is also engineered. `Race against race, hate against hate' .
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      > The churches are hopelessly inadequate to come forward with the truth so all the talk about values and traditions mean zero.
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      > This is the evil that has come upon our times the inability for any decent and moral leader to speak the Truth about 9/11.
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      > Instead they hide behind the over used phrased `the Islamic threat'.
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      > I have said this before; for America to regain her dignity she should speak the truth, with all the implications this involves, and for America to be respected throughout the world she needs to take a moral stand and own up to the truth, sooner rather than later, else the anti-feelings will infester and why should the unrighteous prince of this world receive credit when people in the west and in the east are dying because of the inability to speak the truth.
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      > The Hierarchies are only too willingly to help but they can only do so if men approach the truth in willingness imbued with moral feeling.
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      > Every epoch has its lesson to learn and this lesson is the Consciousness Soul.
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      > Your thoughts on this are appreciated.
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      > Caryn
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      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
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      > > ******* I believe Dr. Steiner's remark about the philosophical path being the most difficult for men in our time was in the exact same place where he said it was the safest path -- -- -- the exact place escapes my mind right now, but perhaps another member of our group could quote it.
      > > He did indeed say that his Philosophy of Freedom would outlive all of his other works. I put this remark in the same category as something he said when he was giving an early cycle of lectures: he started out his first lecture of it by saying he was happy to come to that city to do a course of lectures based on his spiritual scientific research, but then qualified it by saying that, in another sense, he was a little let down by the fact that HE had to come to the city to give the course of lectures, because anyone who REALLY READ his book Theosophy could give the same lectures. What he referred to is that vigorous, living thinking is the use of the human spirit in man, so that anyone really reading his books with will in their thinking will experience what is described in them. I can testify that this is true. The unfortunate reality that many anthroposophists don't make the breakthrough to spiritual knowledge likewise testifies that they simply don't really have living thinking or have the beginnings of it but don't have enough confidence in it and themselves. The "Philosophie der Freiheit" enables any thinking being to become aware of his human spirit and become able to act in freedom, provided he can TRULY read and think the book, and that's what he meant by its importance.
      > > Connected with this unfortunate reality that many anthroposophy lists can't reach firsthand knowledge, is the somewhat silly overvaluing of the first class of the school of spiritual science. My first class teacher, Hans Gebert, was honest enough to confess up front that the Doctor said the mantras would lose their power if anyone outside the school read them, but he knew that during the war the Gestapo had them, and so trying to pretend everything was still the same as it was in 1924 was absurd. My feeling about it is the same as any old traditions that people with very little insight into the origin of the traditions keep going, like the Catholic Church for instance, that it's very easy to find things to criticize about them, but on the other hand the people have a good motivation, that of attempting to preserve something they sense was of great value. I have known many students of spiritual science who have gone very far on the path through reading the basic books, or through Eurythmy, through being Waldorf school teachers and other ways. They all work -- -- if you put enough work into them.
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      > > In order for spiritual science to have any meaning to people today, it has to evolve, and it does. No Waldorf school teacher is just following indications by Steiner chapter and verse every day in the classroom; every artist developing watercolor painting, eurythmy, music etc., is just repeating what Steiner said in his lectures in the 1920s; and wholly new branches of anthroposophy have come into existence since Steiner's time such as the Camphill villages for the retarded which, as a further evolution, have taken up the Christian Community Church impulse. Either it will continue to evolve or it will degenerate into just a personality cult and die out, like Blavatsky's movement did and so many others do. But the Doctor knew this danger and created something that was capable of evolution to offset it. That's why the emphasis on the arts.
      > > Dr. Steiner said that the previous World-Age had to wrestle with the mystery of Death, and this is why the image of the crucified and resurrecting God was placed before us; our age is meant to wrestle with the mystery of Evil. One contribution he made towards understanding this mystery is where he said that anything which would be good in its right time and place, if it is held over, frozen in time, preserved into a later age, will become a force for evil -- -- -- as the Catholic Church was a specter of ancient Rome. Well, this also applies to spiritual science, that it must not be frozen in its old form, because when it is, it loses its goodness and vitality.
      > > A very sad example of this is how people repeat remarks Steiner made in Germany in the 1920s about the English-speaking peoples dominating economics and politics. It was quite natural to express opinions this way in that time and place, where the British Empire had utterly crushed the country of Germany in the aftermath of the first world war, the background of which was the economic competition between England and Germany. To talk about the world being dominated by the Anglo-American forces TODAY is simply absurd, and becoming more absurd with each decade of the rise of China and India economically. In fact, in one of his lectures shortly before his death, he pointed out an observation by a thinker of the times that the economic center of gravity of the world had already shifted from Europe to the Far East. It provides a dismal example of why the Doctor did not want his lectures written down, that so many alienated, self-hating Westerners still quote such things from the 1920s to justify their ridiculous conspiracy theories ascribing all world events to Freemasons, the CIA and George Bush (or whomever). The rise of China after its "century of humiliation" by foreign powers, the conflict between East and West represented by murderous Islam, the growth of economic power in India, Japan, and the oil-producing countries -- -- -- all that has happened since Steiner's voice was silenced, and which of course he would've taken into account in his opinions on world affairs, is ignored, leading to a wholly unrealistic thinking incapable of grasping anything that is really happening before one's eyes. I've known people who call themselves anthroposophists who believe the insanity of people like Michael Moore, denying that the Muslim religion really is on the warpath against the West, trying to blame it all on a CIA conspiracy or something else that prevents one from confronting the reality of events in the 21st century (which Steiner predicted). In fact, here in America, most of the people I meet in the anthroposophical movement are Marxists, with completely unrealistic thinking incapable of grasping the simplest economic or political realities (none of which fit into neat, grandiose conspiracy theories).
      > > I don't like to bring up politics, but it is an elementary basic of spiritual science that one has to train one's own thinking to be realistic in relation to everyday facts of the physical world, otherwise one will carry the same exaggerated, fantastical thinking with one when one enters the spiritual world, resulting only in hallucinations and no definite knowledge. A few years ago, when I was at the Goetheanum, Christopher Budd gave a few lectures on economics that were very insightful, and I was so distressed at hearing the warped thinking of people talking about the subject in the audience afterwards, that at the beginning of his next lecture I asked him if he would just remind his audience that Dr. Steiner was completely against socialism and the government taking over the economy, and he gladly did so (since it's true), but he had some mighty irritable-looking faces in the audience as he poked their sacred cows. It's been absolutely amazing to me how many people try to justify all their preconceptions by seizing upon one or another quote from Dr. Steiner about things in the 1920s or earlier. Just imagine how successful Waldorf schools would be if they kept applying unchanged what Steiner said about children going through puberty at the age of 14, when over the past century it has happened at a younger and younger age!
      > > The true relationship of an anthroposophist to the Anthroposophical Society is not supposed to be one of "What can I do for the society?", but rather, "My spirit leads me to do such and such in the world; how can the society support my efforts?" That's what Dr. Steiner called the "reversed cultus" of our times. As individuals come into the world and associate themselves with this movement, they make it evolve into something new. I know many of the leaders of the movement, and they are always looking for the next direction of evolution.
      > > Starman
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      > > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: peter.lam41@
      > > Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:38:13 -0800
      > > Subject: [steiner] different approaches to anthroposophy
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      > > Thanks very much Starman for your prompt, comprehensive response on this subject. I missed your 'post' until today because being new to Yahoo it got left in my 'spam' folder. What you have said helps me try for a new orientation towards certain concerns. I was aware that the philosophical approach (epistemological plus ethical I suppose one could say) has been described as the safest or surest one - and I believe der Doctor said the most appropriate to our age - I am not sure about it being the most difficult. Any source for the latter? There is also the report that, when asked what he would be remembered for in a thousand years time, the Dr said: The Philosophy of Freedom, everything else would be forgotton. I think that came from Walter
      > > Johannes Stein. Another concern is that in the Society, to be a dinkum anthroposophist seems to entail participation in the 'first class'; whereas if these are all valid paths as you explain, taking the philosophical or one of the other ones you mention should be on a par with that of the 'lessons'. As it is, the arrangement with the 'lessons' (and the 'sections') within the School of Spiritual Science seems very much to be wanting to stay with where the good Dr left off in 1924/25, rather than moving ahead, as you have also pointed out one should expect to do. I think someone has suggested new forms for working with anthroposophy about every 5-10 years would be consistent with what happened in the Dr's life time. I don't know how well this subject fits within 'steiner group' but any comments would be of interest. PS: "dinkum" is an Australian term, perhaps not used elsewhere, it means variously:
      > > authentic, genuine, reliable, or on the level.
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