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4590Re: Miscegenation?

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  • christopherraymond_bio
    Nov 14, 2007
      Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
      did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
      mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
      Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
      discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
      have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
      him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
      any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
      through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
      it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
      sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

      "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
      you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
      you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
      people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
      miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
      of white people in America still marry white people and black people
      marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
      like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
      to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

      Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
      several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
      statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
      School in Stuttgart":

      "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
      more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
      exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
      not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
      human race...They are very different from human beings where
      spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
      sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
      there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
      would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
      are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
      there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
      enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
      particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
      human form.

      "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
      already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
      frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
      professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
      death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
      "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
      36-37)

      After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
      further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
      agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
      past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
      have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
      I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
      just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
      absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
      me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
      poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
      matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
      teaching that I find discouraging.

      Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
      cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
      has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
      happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
      daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
      hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
      miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
      voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
      bigot.

      To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
      What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
      reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
      racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
      should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
      but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
      profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
      companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
      certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
      is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
      this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
      regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

      > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
      disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
      future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
      associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
      exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
      actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

      Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
      experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

      This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

      "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
      [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
      dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
      they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
      science."

      However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
      blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
      no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
      of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
      to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
      it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
      and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
      honest question.

      Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
      of WWI":

      "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
      spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
      white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
      within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
      the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
      that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
      by the four other cultural epochs".

      "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
      impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
      the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
      clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
      spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
      in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
      the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
      demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
      skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
      do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

      Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
      acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
      introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
      again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
      into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
      seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
      most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
      opinion.

      "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
      expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
      little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
      to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
      race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
      is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
      culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
      sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
      I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
      earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
      cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
      to culturally, indeed. "

      First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
      In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
      insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
      from "Health and Illness in 1922:

      "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
      give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
      to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
      blood children will be born in Europe"

      Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
      investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
      washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
      racist.

      "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
      bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
      tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
      to me. Definitions, please."

      "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
      The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
      not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
      differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
      different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
      But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
      only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
      Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
      Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
      development."

      Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

      "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
      millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
      come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
      cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
      surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
      many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
      brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
      that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
      the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
      because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
      could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
      necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

      Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
      the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
      http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

      "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
      until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
      suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
      already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
      reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
      physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
      incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
      genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
      observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
      among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
      already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
      uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
      reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
      Mill put it (7).

      "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
      positively beneficial. European and American children need to
      experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
      music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
      blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
      even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
      passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
      Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
      CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
      allowed to be so confused. "

      Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
      might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
      blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
      another.












      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
      you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
      you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
      people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
      miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
      of white people in America still marry white people and black people
      marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
      like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
      to marry lighter-skinned mates).
      >
      > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
      physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
      is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
      reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
      >
      > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
      clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
      resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
      through spiritual science."
      >
      > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
      become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
      then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
      Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
      in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
      clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
      endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
      same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
      into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
      (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
      whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
      does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
      Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
      worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
      white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
      yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
      focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
      interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
      1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
      has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
      >
      > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
      disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
      future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
      associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
      exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
      actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
      >
      > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
      expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
      little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
      to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
      race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
      is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
      culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
      sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
      I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
      earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
      cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
      to culturally, indeed.
      >
      > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
      bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
      tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
      to me. Definitions, please.
      >
      > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
      The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
      not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
      differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
      different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
      But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
      only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
      Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
      Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
      development.
      >
      > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
      individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
      astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
      incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
      formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
      that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
      approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
      soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
      Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
      very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
      black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
      Malcolm X.
      >
      > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
      being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
      third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
      whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
      >
      > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
      ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
      souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
      in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
      encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
      culture just as much as old ones.
      >
      > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
      nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
      spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
      >
      > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
      positively beneficial. European and American children need to
      experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
      music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
      blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
      even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
      passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
      Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
      CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
      allowed to be so confused.
      >
      > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
      science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
      is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
      here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
      because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
      year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
      Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
      problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
      manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
      so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
      dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
      countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
      souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
      >
      > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
      born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
      here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
      civilization.
      > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
      >
      >
      > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
      01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
      >
      >
      > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
      why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
      Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
      not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
      it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
      to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
      norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
      intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
      clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
      resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
      through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
      is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
      contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
      hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
      the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
      miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
      spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
      encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
      materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
      spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
      Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
      incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
      elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
      suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
      those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
      materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
      uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
      bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
      came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
      should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
      rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
      occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
      here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
      should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
      miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
      either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
      Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
      one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
      approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
      described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
      in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
      lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
      remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
      superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
      Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
      made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
      racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
      way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
      not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
      the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
      or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
      strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
      accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
      into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
      of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
      touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
      the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
      one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
      a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
      Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
      ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
      now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
      foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
      become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
      races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
      as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
      future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
      more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
      > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
      something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
      actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
      clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
      need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
      to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
      science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
      over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
      seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
      tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
      soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
      from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
      not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
      blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
      Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
      incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
      when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
      christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
      [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
      mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
      Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
      clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
      how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
      implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
      ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
      when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
      how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
      or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
      in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
      about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
      the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
      their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
      color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
      past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
      Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
      in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
      limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
      Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
      and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
      taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
      be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
      theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
      topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
      (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
      amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
      taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
      quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
      appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
      answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
      if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
      books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
      in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
      from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
      such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
      clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
      views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
      Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
      > .
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